Synagogue Shooting
- Thread starter Been Jammin
- Start date
When you do what you said you would do and stop deflecting and dodging. You just posted...
Ok, so time to respond. lol, for the seventh time now...
What type of political ideology (ideals and beliefs) did the alleged shooter embrace and promote?
Finish answering the question doofus. You made the claim that Trump is racially divisive. Show me where he has made racially divisive statements.
He can be a jerk and has an abrasive personality, I'll admit.
Show me where he has made racially divisive comments.
Ok, I'm done with you. I asked you the same question seven times and you couldn't answer it. Seven times haha! How pitiful is that AC? You couldn't even honor your own word.
Your deflection/dodging speaks volumes. Good day.
Ok, I'm done with you. I asked you the same question seven times and you couldn't answer it. Seven times haha! How pitiful is that AC? You couldn't even honor your own word.
Your deflection/dodging speaks volumes. Good day.
Progressive retreat and labeling when unable to articulate the logical underpinnings of position.
He will just deny this or excuse it away. We could give him hundred of links, video footage, etc. and he still would make excuses and never agree.
I thought AC was one of the posters on here who was willing to have a reasonable conversation. Clearly, I was wrong.
Seven times! lol
It's called "associating" just deeply enough to be politically convenient but not sufficiently enough to discover root cause of a problem and address it.
Not even getting into the fallacy of your statement at face value.
He is usually not part of the group that deflects/obfuscates when someone tries to pin him down.
Which Trump is the real Trump? The purported Jew hater from a clumsily and carelessly constructed leftist hit piece or the Trump that fully supports Jewish Israel and who finally moved the US embassy to the true capital of Israel, Jerusalem?
I think Benjamin Netanyahu might have a differing opinion than the agenda driven leftists at CNN and The Atlantic.
Is this the part that you believe is racist?
“I’ve condemned neo-Nazis. I’ve condemned many different groups. But not all of those people were neo-Nazis, believe me,” he said.
“You had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists,” Trump said. “The press has treated them absolutely unfairly.”
“You also had some very fine people on both sides,” he said.
I don't think he is antisemitic.
In one case, I think he didn't pay close attention to what he retweeted. I don't think it truly reflected his beliefs.
In the other case, I think he was reluctant to call out a group of his supporters and criticize them.
Any time you defend a group of men marching, carrying torches, and chanting "Jews will not replace us", the optics are bad. I would hope that if something similar happened in the future, he would not take the fence sitter position and would would come out strongly against said group.
To add to my above post.
I fully admit that Obama was the opposite of supportive of Israel. As far as that goes, he was the worst POTUS in my lifetime. Trump has been extremely supportive of Israel. I recognize both of those facts.
I fully admit that Obama was the opposite of supportive of Israel. As far as that goes, he was the worst POTUS in my lifetime. Trump has been extremely supportive of Israel. I recognize both of those facts.
You're a good man Benjamin.
Part of my family is Jewish, so I'm particularly sensitive to antisemitism.
Great post. Your measured thinking is what the Left desperately needs in leadership roles.
The problem with political comments is that crazy people are completely capable of reading meaning into anything as a “reason” to do what they do.
John Hinkley Jr shot Reagan to impress Jodie Foster. Mark David Chapman shot John Lennon to get attention.
There is no way to every get political discussion to a level that it can’t be an internal component of a crazy person's actions.
I would challenge you to be less concerned about what anyone thinks of these lunatics’ ideologies - which are inevitable rambling fever dream streams of unhinged gibberish that in no way reflects any mainstream political ideology.
Good post (mostly).
While, I can definitely buy that the Pittsburgh shooter wasn't motivated specifically by Trump, I do strongly believe that his political leanings and ideology are pertinent to his actions. He blamed the Jews for enabling immigrants to enter the country and decided that something had to be done about it. The guy was clearly not mentally stable, but you can't completely eliminate politics and ideology from the equation of what led him to mass murder of innocent people. It is not like he decided to kill Jews because he can't stand yamakas, or thinks that Hebrew is the language of the devil. That would be more akin to Hinkley/Chapman.
Besides condemning all violence / racism / religious extremism in this thread — in all my years on this board, I’ve never called for violence against any person, or any group.
I also easily lead this board in anti-war posts from the last few years.
Many people on here know I voted for Obama in 2008 (and supported Ron Paul) — that was primarily because I was pissed off at the Republicans over Iraq.
If you want to play this sort of effed up game however....
As a leftist, do you condemn the words and ideologies of Stalin and Mao?
Stalin and Mao caused exponentially more human deaths in the 20th century than Hitler. It’s not even remotely close (especially Mao, he’s far beyond anyone ever).
You constantly promote an ideology that killed over 100 million people. I support America’s constitution as it was written.
I'd strongly caution against going down the road of buying the bullshit @my_2cents is pushing.
As a trained Doctor, you are well aware of the role factor analysis and testing plays in reaching an accurate diagnosis. This is especially true in the very rare type ailments.
He's pushing a brand of bullshit that appeals to something that seems intuitively true, because of what we SEE, because of what is discussed. But there is zero linkage between Left or Right leaning ideology and isolated long tail occurrences of violence.
There are 100 other places to look in establishing actionable causality.
It's irony that the political playbook he's speaking from, Progressivism, was historically rooted in empiricism.
Yet modern Progressives dig only as deep as needed to find political levers. They do not dig deep enough to perform legitimate root cause analysis sufficient to diagnose issues in a way where solutions can be pondered and developed.
I guess I’m not surprised that a crazy person would latch onto a crazy “ideology” like anti semitism, but that’s not exactly a mainstream political platform. To me it just proves that mental illness is 99% of the discussion in these cases and media coverage probably makes up the bulk of the other 1%. Crazy people doing what the voices tell them to do and evil people will do it to be famous for 15 minutes.
This seems like a massive waste of time to even discuss political angles.
This... exactly.
@my_2cents (echoing leftist echo chambers) is political whoring and scapegoating, feeding on the unthoughtful or ill informed.
I'm sticking with the facts that I know (or think I know).
1). On Saturday Morning 10/27/18, Robert Bowers shot and killed 11 innocent Jewish people, as they worshiped in their synagogue in Pittsburgh. He injured others, including police who responded to the scene.
2). As he was murdering them, he shouted antisemitic slurs.
3). He had no previous criminal history, or history of diagnosed mental disorder.
4). His social media footprint included a significant number of antisemitic slurs and references to antisemitic conspiracy theories.
5). In January, an account under his name was created on Gab, a social network that bills itself as a free speech haven. The app, which grew out of claims of anti-conservative bias by Facebook and Twitter, is a popular gathering place for alt-right activists and white nationalists whose views are unwelcome on other social media platforms.
6). Several weeks ago, Mr. Bowers’s account posted a link to the website of HIAS, a Jewish nonprofit organization, which was planning a shabbat ceremony for refugees in locations around the country. The caption read: “Why hello there HIAS! You like to bring in hostile invaders to dwell among us?”
And hours before the gunman entered the Tree of Life synagogue, the account posted again: “HIAS likes to bring invaders in that kill our people. I can’t sit by and watch my people get slaughtered. Screw your optics, I’m going in.”
7.) Bowers was not mentally stable. No one, who would take the action that he did, could possibly be mentally stable.
8.) Ideology, white nationalism, and tribalism played a part in his actions. He made that abundantly clear with his posts that I bolded above.
Let's not act like antisemitism is some kind of fringe movement only believed in by a tiny number of kooks who all need to be on lithium and receiving electroshock therapy. That would be disingenuous.
There were at least 1,986 such incidents motivated by anti-Jewish bias – including physical assaults, vandalism and attacks on Jewish institutions – in 2017, a 57 percent spike in incidents over the year before, according to the Anti-Defamation League, a group that tracks and fights anti-Semitism.
The ADL also published a report this month that found an alarming increase in the amount of anti-Semitic content on social media in the lead-up to next month’s midterm elections.
-USA Today
You aren't even acknowledging his main thrust.
So, are you having a dialogue (which includes listening), or are you talking at someone in the @my_2cents mold?
Do you stop your analysis at level 1? What if there are 99 more levels? How do you know which level or combination of levels is predictive?
What is his main thrust? Because I see him lecturing that crazy people do crazy things, and that attributing his actions to politics is out of bounds.
I realize this is personalized to you because of its anti Semitic nature. I completely sympathize.
However - even if I accept USA Today and ADL’s numbers, I have no idea how that compares to attacks on Christian churches, black owned businesses, gay clubs etc etc. the world is full of insufferable assholes with no pattern other than that a certain % of people are crazy and a % are evil.
If this is his legit ideology - he’s evil. Period. What could change that?
I’m nearly 50 and have lived in Oklahoma most of my life. I couldnt name a single conversation I’ve ever heard where “Jews” came up in any way at all as a topic of conversation good or bad. I’ve got several Jewish clients whom I regard exactly as everyone else I know. I guess I’m just not seeing the point here.
He didn't imply out of bounds. I understand him too be saying exactly what i'm saying:
Any "analysis" of this behavior and discerning causality is pathetically under- informed if it ends at political influence in a generic left/ right split.
Dude, you ARE trained medically. I know this first hand. How many different levels or variables of influence were present?? A thousand? A hundred thousand? A million? More? Over what period of time? And you're seemingly okay with the depth of this discussion and it's relationship to politics??
Seems like you guys didn't have any issues with discussing politics in this thread...https://oklahomastate.forums.rivals.com/threads/congressman-steve-scalise-shot.62242/
I'm fine with admitting that his motivations/actions were not entirely politically driven. I have said so already. I'm not OK with completely eliminating politics from the equation.
So which side is the anti Semitic party? Isn't the Presidents son-in-law Jewish? Im just trying to figure out how it can be attributed to either side?
His daughter is Jewish, also.
The killer was a white nationalist who espoused alt right dogma and conspiracy theories.. What that means, exactly is open for debate.
