We've been trying to get that agreed to for well over a decade with absolutely no success. The Palestinians will not agree to it and after this incident I don't imagine the Israelis are much interested.
I'm good with that solution. How does killing innocent Palestinian citizens achieve that goal?
Have we? The Israelis assassinated Rabin and did their level best to marginalize Arafat and the PLO. Netanyahu and Bush collaborated to put Hamas permanently in control of Gaza.
www.telegraph.co.uk
responsiblestatecraft.org
This is what I was talking about right after the terror attack occured, that I thought Israel (and the US) thought they could control things through Hamas (as they had done wth the PLO) well enough to keep the resentmnt at a low boil that would not spill over into intense bloodshed, and obviously it was a faulty tactic. Been assured me I had no idea what I was talking about, so I dropped it as a line of thought on this board.
I don't know how anyone could deny it when it comes straight from Netanyahu's mouth
So in both state solutions a Hamas that wants Israelis dead still exists? The burden for peace lies solely with Israel hoping their babies aren’t beheaded?
Is dead Israelis Hamas's goal? I doubt it, but if so Israelis can never be safe, so why kill a bunch of kids to accomplish nothing.
Sorry, @fairdinkem, I only now saw this with an opportunity to reply. The answer to your question is no, I have never been to Israel or anywhere on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean for that matter.
This sounds like you want at least a proportional response, so I will point out that a proportional response would include the killing of babies. Which town would you like Israel to go into and kill everyone? Which concert would you like Israeli soldiers to show up and rape and murder whoever they can? Its war man. Israel is going to finish it. Proportionality has nothing to do with it.
That may be what it sounds like to you, but you are mistaken. What I was looking for was an answer from someone who might want to propose a proportional response. The only one willing to give an "honest" answer was SiL who basically was okay if Israel killed every innocent Palestinian as long as it also killed every member of Hamas. I know it's war. I know Israel is going to finish it. I know Israel and those who cheer for them to finish it might find it turns out to be more difficult and deadly than they think it will be. I also know those on this board are filled with bloodlust to see the war play out have never personally been involved in a war and have no idea the horror they are rooting for.
I know exactly what the Israeli's are going into, and I know the stakes that are involved. I will not judge the Israeli's harshly for doing what needs to be done to never have their people attacked that way again. If you go savage to try and get someone, don't be surprised when you get a savage response to your actions. In this case Hamas pulled off one of the most savage attacks in modern history. The Israeli's will use civilization's weaponry to respond, and it will not be proportional, and it should not stop until the matter is settle once and for all. Palestinian's who want to give up, can do so. Raise your hands and the white flag; walk to the Israeli army; follow their instructions and you will be given quarter at least by the Israeli's. You may get shot in the back for doing it, but it's a much better option than just staying in Gaza.
My bloodlust goes only so far as to see an end to this brutality as quickly as possible.
My bloodlust against Gaza ended when I saw a video of a six or seven year old Palestinian girl laying dead, crushed by a giant slab of concrete that fell on her when her home was collapsed by a bomb, only her head and right shoulder and arm sticking out from beneath the concrete as her mother held her dead hand and wailed. I know this will trigger Chi but I saw where the number of Palestinian children dead now exceeds 1000. (I don't remember where I saw it.) It seems to me that Hamas doesn't care about those children, and neither does the Israeli government. They have a war to prosecute and they'll let nothing stand in their way. As for me, I just want the murder and mayhem to stop. Immediately.
The fastest way to get what you want is to have the Israeli's sweep in and do what they are going to do and make sure it is bad enough that Hamas will have no ability to operate going forward. For Hamas to win it would take years of bloodshed, with near destruction of everyone in the region with the likely hood that the conflict escalates into WWIII, and then you will be able to see American and Chinese children in the same type image. Take your pick, if you don't get A and you go for something in between A and B then B applies to the rest of the scenarios.
In other words Israel should just sit back and take it like a punching bag. Allow their citizens to be killed when ever the Palestinians feel like it all because people like you don't want to see anymore killing. SMFH
I have not once said anything remotely like that. I think there has been enough killing and I'd like to see it stop. Israel got sucker punched and has responded with unrelenting body blows of its own. Israel won, Hamas lost. Let's end this thing. Now, I'm done for the day.
I think in the interest of fairness Israel should get to murder everyone who has attended a rave in Gaza in the last month.
Killing children is definitely the path to keep Israel's citizens safe.
Prayers five times a day on yer carpet in front of yer spiritual advisors picture. Yasser? Yer loaded AK right beside you? 🤣
I'd note that the source of most of your numbers on how many civilians the Israelis have killed in retaliation is the same source that pushed the Israel bombed a hospital narrative.
I think you should think that through a little deeper than you have. Let's assume you get the result you are after, Israel attacks, suffers many casualties but manages to subdue Hamas and kill or imprison almost all of them. Hell, let's say they kill or imprison all of them. At what cost to the Palestinians who live in Gaza but are not part of Hamas, some of them are even collaborators with Israeli intelligence? How many of them would have to die or be maimed in order to achive that end? By your words I assume you don't care how many as long as Hamas is destroyed once and for all. But let's take a wild guess. There are supposedly 10-20,000 Hamas terrorists, the IDF is claiming 40,000. Let's split the difference and say 30,000, and the IDF will need to kill or wound at least that many noncombatants before it destroys Hamas completely. I'd bet it would require killing at least that many "innocents" before success is achieved. probably more, many of them being children. So not only does Israel kill or imprison 30,000 Hamas terrorists it also is responsible for 30,000 others who become unfortumate collateral damage. What do you suppose will be the reaction of the friends andfamilies of Hamas terrorists, plus people who were not members but were sympthtic to its cause plus the friends and familes of the innocents who were sacrificed on behalf of an Israeli victory? I think a great many of them will become filled with rage. And I would think a successor to Hamas would spring up out of those people. In a very short time there would be a new terrorist threat and your desired tactic will have achieved nothing but the murder of tens of thousands of people, the maiming of thousands more, andan even more embittered Palestinian population, not to mention the new hatred the families and friends of those Israeli soldiers who are killed as well. I just don't think your solution is a good one. It may be the worst one of them all.
I've done a little Googling but havent found any numbers for the recent actions. There were a number of articles that aggregated the data back to 2000 or 2008 (depending on site and narrative of the story). Care to link where you got your numbers that you quoted from? I'd be curious where they were sourced. And I'd note that just because its the UN, doesn't mean their numbers aren't coming from the same Palistinian leaders that promoted the Israel bombed the hospital narrative. The UN has for years treated Palistinian leaders as if they are independent from the terrorist organization of Hamas, but their own statements have clearly shown that's not really the case. The Palestinian people as a whole may be separate from Hamas, but their leadership clearly isn't.
I don't put these deaths on Israel. They are clearly the result of Hamas burning babies in front of parents and then killing the parents. The deaths of those in Gaza are on Hamas. The Israelis are simply pushing the button.
