The 2022-2023 Line-Up Prediction Thread...
- Thread starter JAY45
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Not crazy about Wittlake going 184. I remember him getting pushed around by Imar at 79 KG last year. Maybe if he hits the weights hard it could work out.
Does Plott have a big cut? If so, maybe Jay45's lineup makes more sense.
I liked what I saw of Skidgel last year. Can he make 165 and be a factor?
In terms of transfers, there should be plenty of $ available with the losses of AJ, Anthony & Montalvo. I think Lee said Boone might also be gone.
Does Plott have a big cut? If so, maybe Jay45's lineup makes more sense.
I liked what I saw of Skidgel last year. Can he make 165 and be a factor?
In terms of transfers, there should be plenty of $ available with the losses of AJ, Anthony & Montalvo. I think Lee said Boone might also be gone.
Yes I think Keylan went to Pepperdine & Kalib stayed. And Kyle, hes just a POS.
165 is a monster and Carr is bumping up to that weight to stack it even more. Wittlake may have a better chance to AA at 184 than 165
I think Plott is pretty locked in at 174. I also thinks he makes a jump this year. Some good summer performances back that up as well.
My opinion: Why mess with Plott & his weight class when he didn't do anything to cause this mess at 197.
Surber has looked much bigger this off season. I’m not sure that that horse hasn’t already left the barn.
It's possible to be lighter and still have success. Lucas Davison took 6th last year and he was weighing in around 233.
I think the challenge for Surber has been putting on good weight - gaining strength where he needs it. His dad gave an interview last year and said Luke got bigger in the butt, the neck & the shoulders. So not the arms, chest & legs.
I think the challenge for Surber has been putting on good weight - gaining strength where he needs it. His dad gave an interview last year and said Luke got bigger in the butt, the neck & the shoulders. So not the arms, chest & legs.
Based on the roster at this moment...
125 - Trevor Mastro
133 - Daton
141 - Carter
149 - Voinovich
157 - Mechler / Travis Mastro / Jalin Harper
165 - Wyatt Sheets
174 - Plott
184 - Wittlake
197 - Haas
285 - Surber / Doucet
I think there's a chance that they redshirt Surber and go with Doucet. Which I like. Doucet is walking around over 260, last I heard, and has some throws in his arsenal that make him dangerous.
There could also be some late additions as school gets closer to starting. We will see what happens! Personally I think that's a strong lineup. Will they beat Penn State? Probably not. Will they be top 5? I think so, but understand that most of y'all will disagree.
125 - Trevor Mastro
133 - Daton
141 - Carter
149 - Voinovich
157 - Mechler / Travis Mastro / Jalin Harper
165 - Wyatt Sheets
174 - Plott
184 - Wittlake
197 - Haas
285 - Surber / Doucet
I think there's a chance that they redshirt Surber and go with Doucet. Which I like. Doucet is walking around over 260, last I heard, and has some throws in his arsenal that make him dangerous.
There could also be some late additions as school gets closer to starting. We will see what happens! Personally I think that's a strong lineup. Will they beat Penn State? Probably not. Will they be top 5? I think so, but understand that most of y'all will disagree.
Bumping up wrestlers in weight class? Woah. Though I can see Wyatt and Wittlake both doing well in larger weight classes... just given both their pace of wrestling. I can also see them not doing well, but I like the first version.
What was the pre-AJ-debacle plan for Haas? Do we know? Was he going to cut to 184?
I’m hoping for the late additions. And I hope they are studs. We are missing too many pieces.
125- Mastro
133- Daton
141- Carter
149- victor
157- Wyatt
165- Travis
174- plott
184- kyle
197- surber
285- Konner
Sounds like Seth likes this direction…
Four Options for Oklahoma State to Fill the Gap AJ Ferrari Left Behind
OSU has options at 197.
pistolsfiringblog.com
I’m going with option 1Sounds like Seth likes this direction…
Four Options for Oklahoma State to Fill the Gap AJ Ferrari Left Behind
OSU has options at 197.pistolsfiringblog.com
Interesting post from a PFB commenter
That online interview with coach Ryan of Ohio State explains how Gable’s training methods were considered to be perfection and resulted in an attitude that these guys could not lose to anyone because their training was so complete and effective. They always expected to win each match and Gable expected to have 10 NCAA champions each season. Ryan said their practices were brutal and violent, and this carried over into how they wrestled in the actual matches. This makes sense because this is how Gable wrestled. He said after the murder of his sister he was filled with so much anger that he took this feeling into his wrestling matches. That’s why the Brand twins are the perfect coaches for Iowa. They are naturally angry and also cannot tolerate losing. Gable said that the twins when rooming together used to beat each other up on a regular basis. This makes me wonder if OSU should be sending their guys to the Brand’s summer wrestling camp to find out how Iowa trains? I realize this might not happen because ego could be involved. We don’t want anything to do with the enemy. Then I would suggest that OSU consider finding a former Iowa superstar who would like to be an assistant coach at OSU. Our guys, with few exceptions, are not aggressive enough. They seem to rely too much on technique instead of going out there to pound on and dominate their opponents. Single leg ankle pick is now being defended better these days.
Update on Anthony Montalvo. After last season he transferred to Arizona State U. at 184 lbs. I will enjoy following his career. I just hope he is fully healed. Speaking of ASU, I hope that we don’t include them in the Big 12. I used to live in Phoenix and followed ASU sports. They were pretty mediocre, so I don’t think they bring anything to the table other than a baseball program that used to be very good in the recent past.
Going back to wrestling, the probable lineup that Mark has proposed looks likely and looks real good for dual meets. But I don’t see even one potential NCAA champion there. With all due respect to Daton Fix, I think he becomes a 4-time runner up. Plott might have been the guy to do it all eventually, but I think his shoulder injury has changed dampened his career. It’s just really strange to see a Cowboy lineup that probably has no NCAA champions on it. It shows how far this once great program has dropped.
That online interview with coach Ryan of Ohio State explains how Gable’s training methods were considered to be perfection and resulted in an attitude that these guys could not lose to anyone because their training was so complete and effective. They always expected to win each match and Gable expected to have 10 NCAA champions each season. Ryan said their practices were brutal and violent, and this carried over into how they wrestled in the actual matches. This makes sense because this is how Gable wrestled. He said after the murder of his sister he was filled with so much anger that he took this feeling into his wrestling matches. That’s why the Brand twins are the perfect coaches for Iowa. They are naturally angry and also cannot tolerate losing. Gable said that the twins when rooming together used to beat each other up on a regular basis. This makes me wonder if OSU should be sending their guys to the Brand’s summer wrestling camp to find out how Iowa trains? I realize this might not happen because ego could be involved. We don’t want anything to do with the enemy. Then I would suggest that OSU consider finding a former Iowa superstar who would like to be an assistant coach at OSU. Our guys, with few exceptions, are not aggressive enough. They seem to rely too much on technique instead of going out there to pound on and dominate their opponents. Single leg ankle pick is now being defended better these days.
Update on Anthony Montalvo. After last season he transferred to Arizona State U. at 184 lbs. I will enjoy following his career. I just hope he is fully healed. Speaking of ASU, I hope that we don’t include them in the Big 12. I used to live in Phoenix and followed ASU sports. They were pretty mediocre, so I don’t think they bring anything to the table other than a baseball program that used to be very good in the recent past.
Going back to wrestling, the probable lineup that Mark has proposed looks likely and looks real good for dual meets. But I don’t see even one potential NCAA champion there. With all due respect to Daton Fix, I think he becomes a 4-time runner up. Plott might have been the guy to do it all eventually, but I think his shoulder injury has changed dampened his career. It’s just really strange to see a Cowboy lineup that probably has no NCAA champions on it. It shows how far this once great program has dropped.
eh. much ado about nothing.
OkieSt and Iowa train just as hard. Mocco will tell you the same. Okiest is a more technical style, but I'd say it has more to do with weight cuts than anything. And with very few exceptions, D1 wrestlers are not going out there to "dominate" - because the talent level is too even in most cases.
John absolutely focuses on winning matches and scoring points. This comment about Gable is dead. You can't outtrain anyone anymore. On this board, we know Okiest has the opposite problem - these guys need more rest.
Fix isn’t a potential NCAA champ? Dude has lost 4 matches in 3 years.
2 finals losses in OT.
2 finals losses in OT.
He’s certainly a potential champ. Gotta figure out RBY. Hasn’t scored an offensive point on him the last two NCAAs.
We train too hard. We don't train hard enough. Which is it?
Bottom line we are going to have to take a page from Gundy's recruiting book.We are not on the level of Iowa,PSU,or tOSU.
We need to find wrestlers that are underrated and develop them.If we are being honest and take off the OSU sunglasses tell me one reason to come to OSU over any of those 3?
We need to find wrestlers that are underrated and develop them.If we are being honest and take off the OSU sunglasses tell me one reason to come to OSU over any of those 3?
Here is 1 of our problems we have too many good wrestlers over the last 15 years. People get mad at me for being so negative about our wrestlers or recruits. Good wrestlers win most of their matches because they have way more talent than average college wrestlers. However in tough matches too often they can't find a way to win and too often find a way to lose. Real good wrestlers dominate most everyone they wrestle and 3 or 4 times a year they are in a tough match and they find a way to win with consistency. Alex Dieringer, Dean Heil his junior and sophomore years and maybe Daton Fix were and are real good wrestlers. In our National Championship run in the 2000's we had a lot of real good wrestlers like Johny Thompson, Coleman Scott, Zac Esposito, Jake Rosholt, Chris Pendleton, Steve Mocco etc. Getting upset twice in Fargo concerns me maybe they will grow from these losses but as I said most don't. Some wrestlers get better with these kind of losses. I think it was at UNI which was Fargo back then and in the semi"s John Smith wrestled another Oklahoma State signee maybe Balzeskie and John got pancaked quick and pinned. LeRoy tied to console him but John stormed off. He also lost a close match in the 3rd place match. Also John lost in the finals his sophomore year to Jordan. John jumped levels from these losses but most don't. With good wrestlers it just sets a pattern of losing most of their close, tough matches in big situations. We have too many good wrestlers who don't win the big matches and need more real good wrestlers. How much our coaching is involved in this lack of development is a concern or not recruiting the right wrestlers who have the motivation to move from good to real good wrestlers. Now even when we get real good wrestlers something bad happens like AJ self- destructing and Daton losing too many really big matches. The refs did rip him off in the Surianno match. I don't know when we will ever win 35. I do know that the leaders of our Program had everything going for them in the mid 2000's and somewhere really screwed things up. We are still paying the price and I don't have any confidence that it will stop after this last blow.
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I remember and likely was part of our fall. Pat was a superstar and I heard he had quite the personality that drew people.
Pat was fantastic but he was just a piece of the puzzle. The biggest factor we had was Gator Wrestling Club. It’s the same thing for Penn State and Cornell now. They have good recruits, but their daily workout partners are all hammers.
Teague Moore, Eric Guerrero, Jamill Kelly, Daniel Cormier, Mo Lawal, Mark Munoz, Pat Smith, Mark Branch.
They were the Gator Club guys plus the coaching staff. This is why we succeeded back then. It’s what we got away from and it’s what we are hopefully not too far behind in this new RTC environment that we are living in now.
Well... Here are the rankings for the last four recruiting classes from each of the "big 5" in college wrestling...
Oklahoma State:
2022 - #5
2021 - #6
2020 - #1
2019 - #13
Iowa:
2022 - #15
2021 - #3
2020 - #2
2019 - unranked
Penn State:
2022 - #22
2021 - #1
2020 - #4
2019 - unranked
Ohio State:
2022 - #1
2021 - #12
2020 - unranked
2019 - #1
Michigan:
2022 - #24
2021 - #18
2020 - #16
2019 - #12
So... I'd argue that our high school recruiting is as good as everybody on that list. For the 2023 class, we've got three top 25 national recruits committed. One of them, Brayden Thompson from Illinois, had what would have been a folkstyle takedown on Carter Starroci in the senior world team trials. He made the U20 world team as a junior in high school.
Where we are weak is in the transfer portal... although we've had some decent guys come out of that like Carter Young and Dakota Geer. Michigan won the Big 10 on super seniors and transfers. Penn State has dominated the transfer market and Iowa is playing it well also. Why are we weak in this area? Because we haven't actively used it... although I believe that is changing, as you've heard John Smith say in a few different media availabilities. Yes, he's said "the transfer portal is a joke" but he also said "we are going to have to leverage that moving forward because it's a big part of our sport now and we can't be left behind on it."
Our biggest issue is keeping guys healthy. If our lineup from last season stays healthy, it's a top 5 finish. The points difference between where we finished and 3rd place was literally AJ Ferrari. Well... AJ is gone. So how do you get back to that level? You need Trevor Mastrogiovanni, Carter Young, Victor Voinovich, Kyle Haas, Travis Wittlake, and Luke Surber to all live up to their top 30 national recruit ratings. How do you get them to do that? Surber needs to put on some weight... and the rest of them need to stay healthy. Period. You've got a finalist in Daton Fix and you've got a top 6, and likely top 4 this season, guy in Dustin Plott. The talent is there to get 7-8 AAs... They just need to stay healthy. And to do that they don't need to "train harder", as was suggested above, like the Iowa program, who limped through NCAAs last season and has ruined the freestyle career of what should have been the next great American wrestler in Spencer Lee... They need to train smarter. Preserve their health. Stay mentally strong. Have fun with it.
I agree with this. I think there are other impactful reasons along with some bad luck of why we have fallen off the top. But I think it was the assistant coaches in the room at that time and the level of talent either on the team or on staff. The phrase “iron sharpens iron” comes to mind and it’s literally what teams like PSU and Iowa are doing with their RTC. I think tOSU recruiting has jumped because they are going hard on the the NIL avenue
Iowa has five guys in their RTC, and they're all former Iowa wrestlers. Lugo, Marinelli, Eierman, Young and Desanto. Will this benefit them in being like the Gator club from OSU's late 90s teams? Maybe. But the purpose of the RTC has evolved since that time. And in 10 years are all of those guys head coaches somewhere else, like what happened to the Gator Club?
They haven't had an athlete on the world team since Gilman, who left shortly after. Penn State, Michigan, Princeton/Rutgers, Penn/Drexel, and Arizona State all have much much better RTC programs. Iowa has a similar philosophy to OSU. The HWC is there to support Iowa wrestlers as they compete at the senior level and win world and Olympic titles. If you want the Cowboy RTC to bring in outside guys and be more competitive... you need to model after Penn State, Michigan, Penn... those are the top tier RTCs.
An RTC that is successful in doing it like OSU and Iowa are wanting to do it... is Cornell. They don't bring in outside guys except for as temp coaches. Like Jordan Oliver. All of their athletes are Cornell wrestlers.
Well we've gone from breaking down our opponents to just scoring points. Remember when Keegan Moore beat Dakota Geer last year - Dakota was a broken man halfway through that match and that's what we're missing. Not even AJ was out there to dominate people. Mocco, Thompson, Fried, Mark Smith, Pat Smith, Teague, Guerrero, Schmidt, Pendleton, those guys absolutely picked their opponents apart and got them to give up partway through the match. Granted I'm cherry-picking superstars but I recall the style being both slick AND punishing. Now we're just slick as we've given up vicious mat returns in favor of ankle picks, traded in our crossfaces in favor of wrist control, and have moved from incessant level changes to primarily tie-ups and elbow control. I don't know if rules have changed since the 90s and mid 2000s, but our style on the mat sure has.
I just said it was interesting. OSU is good at many things, but obviously it's not complete enough to win many individual championships in the last 15 years. I'd rather ask why than pretend nothing's missing. One could postulate that John is more focused on developing good citizens whereas the Brands bros are more interested in cultivating and harnessing dangerous anger. Who knows really since we don't see practices or hear team speeches. Maybe when OSU wrestling has a golf tournament, Iowa wrestling is up there having a cage match brawl 😆
The training John Smith employs is noted as extremely different than Cael Sanderson. Penn St. seems to enjoy their playful practices?
I don't know how much I believe the reports that Cael has competitive dodgeball matches instead of technique clinics, but his wrestlers go on the record saying these things.
So do we overtrain and the best undertrains? I don't know? I do know we seem to suffer many injuries. Do we suffer more than others? I don't know?
@alex1fly I agree that I don't enjoy our "style" anymore. Oliver, Scott, Morrison, Pendelton, Erisman and the others of the post 2000's runs had an enjoying style to watch that looked like snipers. Somehow, that has moved into working ties and gutting out a TD to get a match into a short-time win or into overtime?
I don't know how much I believe the reports that Cael has competitive dodgeball matches instead of technique clinics, but his wrestlers go on the record saying these things.
So do we overtrain and the best undertrains? I don't know? I do know we seem to suffer many injuries. Do we suffer more than others? I don't know?
@alex1fly I agree that I don't enjoy our "style" anymore. Oliver, Scott, Morrison, Pendelton, Erisman and the others of the post 2000's runs had an enjoying style to watch that looked like snipers. Somehow, that has moved into working ties and gutting out a TD to get a match into a short-time win or into overtime?
Think it's important to note that outside of Spencer Lee, Iowa has the same number of champions in the last 5 years as we do. Actually if you exclude Lee we have one more. They do have a team title, which is a big differentiator.
Also outside of a very small handful of guys... Who has been as dominant as those mentioned from our last run? Spencer Lee, Gable Stevenson, Alex Dieringer, Zain Retherford and Bo Nickal is about all I can think of, really. The sport has grown and the talent is much more evenly spread out now than it used to be. Guys that are really good and may win multiple titles really just get exceptional at one or two things.. and it's usually defense... And that wins for them. Think of Dean Heil or Roman Bravo Young. Neither of those guys were exceptionally dominant... Just really really good at a couple of things that people can't beat.
