New OSU wrestling podcast from a good Cowboy

[turfpoke]

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I agree that training with Retherford, Nolf, Nickal, Taylor probably does make wrestling against regular college competition easy... but Gilman, Snyder, etc... I just don't agree.

And you've got to have something that allows you to take your mind off of this thing too. John Smith had hobbies while he was competing. Still does. And then, like, Vincenzo Joseph was going out and partying hard during the season as well. Missed a lot of duals and practices because he was hungover or overweight. Would take his results at NCAAs 100% of the time.

We can disagree. I wrestled enough to know getting your ass beat by someone better than you only makes you better.

Wrestler “A” trains with Olympic gold medalist and never scores.
Wrestler “B” trains with a great high school wrestler and scores at will.

All things equal I’m going with wrestler “A”.

It’s no different than taking batting practice off of a 70 mph fastball or 95 mph.

I agree that student athletes should enjoy life. There is also a responsibility that when you put on the orange singlet that wrestling comes first.

 

[Sebastian]

That would be great if Haas has improved offensively. I seem to remember scoring issues against the better wrestlers, like his bro Caldwell had. I think he got beat by Amos a time or two and maybe a couple other upset losses, even in Kansas. Didn't he take a year out to have a kid or something like that? I think his ranking dropped tremendously before he got here.

 

[leecothran]

That would be great if Haas has improved offensively. I seem to remember scoring issues against the better wrestlers, like his bro Caldwell had. I think he got beat by Amos a time or two and maybe a couple other upset losses, even in Kansas. Didn't he take a year out to have a kid or something like that? I think his ranking dropped tremendously before he got here.

I mean Amos beat everybody in Freestyle and Greco... he did get upset a couple of times his junior year and then took his senior year off but he's been in Stillwater since that time and has been able to adjust and get his focus. Very confident that he'll be good.

 

[Okie_Pat]

I do think that PSU approach to allow their guys to relax and have fun works in certain situations. Currently I think our guys could use some of that. It looks like the guys are wrestling with a lot of pressure to win since AJ went down and things kinda fell off, and it got kinda hard mentally for some and frustrating for the coaches. John seems to have the approach that pushes his guys harder when they aren’t wrestling well i.e. doing two of days practice after the Iowa loss. I remember Daton saying one time that when he’s relaxed and having fun is when he’s at his best. And you can tell when Daton puts the pressure on himself to win he doesn’t open up and I think that’s cost him 2 national titles. I think he’s a different wrestler than we have seen the previous years though. Plott and Wittlake appear to be in that funk currently.

 

[Okie_Pat]

On another note, it looks like Lidenwood University has decided to transition to D1 and join the Ohio Valley Conference starting the Fall of 2022. They are in St. Louis so I wonder which conference they will wrestle in? Joining the Big12 would make sense.

 

[osu2082]

PSU has gotten lucky on some too. There are plenty of highly rated prospects there that haven't amounted to anything... look at the massive gap they have from 149-165. They have a 141 guy up at 149 and he's ok... then they had to go pull a literal coach off of SDSU's bench to be their 165 guy... and they have had a revolving door of top 10 recruits at 125 for 7 years too.

It’s why it’s important to get as many of them as you can. PSU does two things better than we do right now. They land more highly rated guys and they develop the ones they do get better.

They turn their blue chippers into monsters and their AA caliber guys into NC contenders.

We just haven’t been able to do that at their pace. Their RTC is a huge reason why. It’s aids in their recruiting those high level guys for several reasons (the room, $$ promises, etc). It also aids in the development of the college wrestlers on campus and regardless of ones personal beliefs on this one, the proof is in the pudding here.

 

[Harleycowboy]

It’s why it’s important to get as many of them as you can. PSU does two things better than we do right now. They land more highly rated guys and they develop the ones they do get better.

They turn their blue chippers into monsters and their AA caliber guys into NC contenders.

We just haven’t been able to do that at their pace. Their RTC is a huge reason why. It’s aids in their recruiting those high level guys for several reasons (the room, $$ promises, etc). It also aids in the development of the college wrestlers on campus and regardless of ones personal beliefs on this one, the proof is in the pudding here.

I just listened to Bader's interview of Hardell Moore. Hardell's first practice he worked out with John and Pat Smith and Hardell never scored any points the whole practice. It was a month before he got a takedown which he explained a big moment for him was getting a takedown on Pat Smith. Pat was a mean wrestler but he respected Hardell for wrestling with him. Interesting he said the toughest guy to wrestle with was Alan Fried. Alan Fried never got tired and never stopped ( he was an animal). He worked out with Coach Mark Perry on the down position and he was ridden for 45 minutes never getting out once. Mark Branch was a workout partner who with his height when Mark was on top felt like he weighed 250 pounds put his legs in. Hardell said Mark Branch kept getting better and better and wrestling tough guys and losing very close matches. JJ McGrew was a wrestling partner and really had a great fireman's. Hardell really gave a good interview and he seems like a great guy.

 

[JAY45]

PSU supposedly does keep things light. A poster on the OhioSt board said PSU wrestlers told him they played dodgeball for 2 hours the week before Big10s. Certainly a different approach.

But I think it's more than that. I think their RTC athletes develop their college guys. Cael basically said as much in the clip I posted the other day. Look at their champs last year and who they can practice with...RBY/Gilman, Nick Lee/Retherford, Starocci/Nolf, Brooks/Taylor. Now it's not always going to work - Vincenzo Joseph indicated that he worked with Joe Lee and Lee still can't make their lineup. Manville was the #5 overall recruit and his record is below 500. But it will work a lot.

Sounds like Pete Carroll kind of stuff

 

[Old Number Nine]

We can disagree. I wrestled enough to know getting your ass beat by someone better than you only makes you better.

Wrestler “A” trains with Olympic gold medalist and never scores.
Wrestler “B” trains with a great high school wrestler and scores at will.

This is a very good point. I remember a few years ago when Mark Schultz was posting on TheMat or some such and he talked about when he was a High School Jr, (or Sr., don't remember) and he switched from Gymnastics to Wrestling. He said he had plenty of strength but little technique but he had his older brother Dave who made him wrestle continually. Mark said he never got a takedown but his defense slowly improved until one day Dave got mad and started yelling at him that what he was doing was stalling. From that point on it got harder and harder for Dave to score on him. As a Baseball player I know you want to practice against 95mph.

 

[Wrassler17]

Sounds like Pete Carroll kind of stuff

That's a good comparison.

 

[Okie_Pat]

This is a very good point. I remember a few years ago when Mark Schultz was posting on TheMat or some such and he talked about when he was a High School Jr, (or Sr., don't remember) and he switched from Gymnastics to Wrestling. He said he had plenty of strength but little technique but he had his older brother Dave who made him wrestle continually. Mark said he never got a takedown but his defense slowly improved until one day Dave got mad and started yelling at him that what he was doing was stalling. From that point on it got harder and harder for Dave to score on him. As a Baseball player I know you want to practice against 95mph.

This is good stuff!
You practice against 95 mph because everyone else is practicing against 75 mph. Even though you don’t get a lot of hits you’re getting better. Just like PSU, they practice with multiple national/world champs and everyone else practicing with backups.

If Dieringer was still in the RTC I have no doubt that Wittlake and Plott would be going with him on the regular.

 

[leecothran]

 

[Wrassler17]

Another point on wrestlers training with better wrestlers...

The RTC model is rooted in it. We talk a lot about college guys training with post grads, but RTCs were also created to allow youth wrestlers to train with college coaches/athletes. Eligible kids can travel up to 250 miles to train at the college RTCs. And USA Wrestling also has the Elite Accelerator Program (EAP) that allows HS seniors to train with senior athletes at the OTC. Carter Young was set to skip his senior year at Stillwater and move to Colorado, but the program got suspended due to covid.

 

[osu2082]

Another point on wrestlers training with better wrestlers...

The RTC model is rooted in it. We talk a lot about college guys training with post grads, but RTCs were also created to allow youth wrestlers to train with college coaches/athletes. Eligible kids can travel up to 250 miles to train at the college RTCs. And USAW Wrestling also has the Elite Accelerator Program (EAP) that allows HS seniors to train with senior athletes at the OTC. Carter Young was set to skip his senior year at Stillwater and move to Colorado, but the program got suspended due to covid.

Thus another major recruiting advantage of having a publicized, popular, well funded and organized RTC.

 

[Wrassler17]

Thus another major recruiting advantage of having a publicized, popular, well funded and organized RTC.

Actually if I understand it correctly, John's biggest issue with RTCs is not the paying of post grads, but the amount of contact they allow with youth wrestlers. I believe John & Cary Kolat wanted to revert back to the club model, which called for a 50 mile radius. They also wanted to limit college coaches working directly with kids too young to be recruited.

I remember on a Flo podcast they talked about Iowa's Ryan Morningstar coaching the Iowa national team at Fargo, giving him early contact with potential recruits. They said ISU wanted Brent Metcalf to do the same just to prevent Iowa from gaining an advantage. But the best was Cornell coach Gabe Dean. He coached the PA team even though Cornell is in NY.

 

[leecothran]

Actually if I understand it correctly, John's biggest issue with RTCs is not the paying of post grads, but the amount of contact they allow with youth wrestlers. I believe John & Cary Kolat wanted to revert back to the club model, which called for a 50 mile radius. They also wanted to limit college coaches working directly with kids too young to be recruited.

I remember on a Flo podcast they talked about Iowa's Ryan Morningstar coaching the Iowa cadet team at Fargo, giving him early contact with potential recruits. They said ISU wanted Brent Metcalf to do the same just to prevent Iowa from gaining an advantage. But the best was Cornell coach Gabe Dean. He coached the PA team even though Cornell is in NY.

The 250 mile radius has been a massive advantage for Penn State. I'm interested to see how it pays off for UPenn, Drexel, Princeton, and Rutgers as well.

Would argue that the Pennsylvania RTC is the second best RTC out there.

Also have trouble believing that John has an issue with senior level guys coaching youth, considering the Gator Club was so successful for OSU... and still exists as the Cowboy Wrestling Club, which is part of the Cowboy RTC. One in the same.

Agree with 2082 that ours needs to be better publicized and more forward facing. For sure.

 

[alex1fly]

I also think there's an overarching philosophy at Penn State that keeps their guys fresh through the season, avoids a lot of the injury issues, and gets them peaked for NCAAs. I don't think it's development... they just seem to have way more fun with it.

I think that AJ and Daton have helped change that a little bit in our room... but you can tell when our guys aren't having fun out there.

This is true. Interviews with their wrestlers show it. They have fun, goof around, and in the process cook up new moves and combinations. That last part is key to their success. They also work on being mentally grounded and present in the moment... not just "tough". There's a zen-like philosophical vibe to many of their top guys.

 

[Wrassler17]

Also have trouble believing that John has an issue with senior level guys coaching youth, considering the Gator Club was so successful for OSU... and still exists as the Cowboy Wrestling Club, which is part of the Cowboy RTC. One in the same.

Not the senior level guys, the actual college coaches. For example, Morningstar couldn't coach the Iowa Cadet team. ASU's Lee Pritts couldn't coach the World Cadet team. Basically John & Cary wanted a clearer separation between the college coaches and the RTC coaches/athletes.

Flo had a podcast on it. If Willie is around, maybe he can explain it better.

 

[skylinepoke]

If Dieringer was still in the RTC I have no doubt that Wittlake and Plott would be going with him on the regular.

What could those 2 be today if they had to go against AD on a daily basis? One can only dream.

 

[leecothran]

Not the senior level guys, the actual college coaches. For example, Morningstar couldn't coach the Iowa Cadet team. ASU's Lee Pritts couldn't coach the World Cadet team. Basically John & Cary wanted a clearer separation between the college coaches and the RTC coaches/athletes.

Flo had a podcast on it. If Willie is around, maybe he can explain it better.

Well... I mean... kind of saw the results of that when PSU got all of those transfers after U23's a couple of years ago... team was coached by Casey.

 

[Wrassler17]

Well... I mean... kind of saw the results of that when PSU got all of those transfers after U23's a couple of years ago... team was coached by Casey.

Cael was also on that trip I believe.

And yes, I understood it to be John & Cary wanted a separation between the college coaches & the RTC coaches - from youth all the way up.

 

[leecothran]

Cael was also on that trip I believe.

And yes, I understood it to be John & Cary wanted a separation between the college coaches & the RTC coaches - from youth all the way up.

A lot has changed since that time though. I think John is coming around on the RTC system. Just not as fast as we would like.

We'll see what happens with the website and with opening up donation opportunities for everybody that wants to give. I've already committed a set monthly amount to the RTC, personally, and will give whatever revenue I generate from the podcast to it as well.

 

[alex1fly]

Nice. I'd sure rather donate straight to the wrestling program than to the overall school, which the OSU Alumni Assocation constantly reminds me that I'm not doing, lol.

 

[Sebastian]

Nobody's mentioning the benefit they had of telling a recruit "we will give you a 100k job upon graduation if you want to train here", whether they were being truthful or not, or if certain criteria must be reached. I'm sure the David Taylor's of the world don't doubt they would qualify for that deal. Heck, now with NIL they may just give him the money up front.

 

[turfpoke]

Nobody's mentioning the benefit they had of telling a recruit "we will give you a 100k job upon graduation if you want to train here", whether they were being truthful or not, or if certain criteria must be reached. I'm sure the David Taylor's of the world don't doubt they would qualify for that deal. Heck, now with NIL they may just give him the money up front.

Hard to compete against that a few years ago. Now it seems like anything goes. Hopefully that’s good for us.

 

[Wrassler17]

Nobody's mentioning the benefit they had of telling a recruit "we will give you a 100k job upon graduation if you want to train here", whether they were being truthful or not, or if certain criteria must be reached. I'm sure the David Taylor's of the world don't doubt they would qualify for that deal. Heck, now with NIL they may just give him the money up front.

That one is a given. Remember, a credible poster stated Kerkvliet decommitted from us because of that exact reason.

 

[turfpoke]

A lot has changed since that time though. I think John is coming around on the RTC system. Just not as fast as we would like.

We'll see what happens with the website and with opening up donation opportunities for everybody that wants to give. I've already committed a set monthly amount to the RTC, personally, and will give whatever revenue I generate from the podcast to it as well.

Great work on the podcast. Listened today while out working. I’d like to see Duckworth vs Heindselman’s grandma.
I hope they make it easy to donate once the website is up. I’ve wanted to join the white jacket club since the early 90s. I can’t count how many times I’ve looked at how to join and I just give up. It shouldn’t be that hard.

 

[leecothran]

Great work on the podcast. Listened today while out working. I’d like to see Duckworth vs Heindselman’s grandma.
I hope they make it easy to donate once the website is up. I’ve wanted to join the white jacket club since the early 90s. I can’t count how many times I’ve looked at how to join and I just give up. It shouldn’t be that hard.

Hey I can only go off of what Derek Fix said in that podcast.

In the meantime, call Jesse Martin. He may not be the right guy but he can get you to the right guy.

 

[Okie_Pat]

NCAA released their 2022 tournament allocations

NCAA DI Wrestling Committee releases qualifying tournament allocations for 2022 championships

The NCAA Division I Wrestling Committee has announced the pre-allocation spots for the 2022 NCAA Division I Wrestling Championships as listed in the chart below.

www.ncaa.com

197 and HWT are stacked so it might be tough for us to qualify through the big12 tournament alone at those weights.

 

[JAY45]

View embedded media

Another excellent, informative, & entertaining podcast.

We listened on the way up to the Skiatook Smackdown.

@leecothran, you made a comment regarding duals, Purdue/Michigan State, Big 12 affiliates, & Fans.

It seems there is an important distinction here.
Most fans who follow closely know that the affiliate Members are scrappy, dangerous, underrated, and on the rise.

Personally, I am a huge fan & advocate of the affiliate Members, and recognize the importance of the health of their programs. The Big 12 Tournament has been a great event to attend the past several years.

As a season ticket holder, my preference would be to fill all of the non-conference opponent slots with the toughest possible opponent, for a number of reasons. Instead of Bucknell, it would be great to see any B1G or ACC opponent.

Years ago, Fresno State had an “any place, any time” mentality regarding scheduling. A real Spartan mindset. The OSU Program is decorated enough to have this mentality as well. (In most ways, they already do).

Secondly, despite the growth and increasing strength of the B12 affiliates, it still pales in comparison to the grind that is the B1G.

Thetefore, I stand by my statement: Instead of Bucknell, challenge the Program and entertain the Fans with Purdue, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Virginia Tech, even Virginia or Duke.

Keep up the great work!!

 

[leecothran]

Any questions for this week?

Also need to start thinking of subjects to cover in the off season… anybody y’all would like to hear from? Subjects you’d like me to cover? Etc?

 

[cowtowncowboy]

Any questions for this week?

Also need to start thinking of subjects to cover in the off season… anybody y’all would like to hear from? Subjects you’d like me to cover? Etc?

Lee, I don’t know much about wrestling but I recently have become interested because I love the Pokes and content and coverage like your podcast is becoming more available. In the off season, I would be interested to learn more about the different events that committed, current and past Pokes are competing in and how they performed.

 

[vhsalum]

Actually if I understand it correctly, John's biggest issue with RTCs is not the paying of post grads, but the amount of contact they allow with youth wrestlers. I believe John & Cary Kolat wanted to revert back to the club model, which called for a 50 mile radius. They also wanted to limit college coaches working directly with kids too young to be recruited.

I remember on a Flo podcast they talked about Iowa's Ryan Morningstar coaching the Iowa national team at Fargo, giving him early contact with potential recruits. They said ISU wanted Brent Metcalf to do the same just to prevent Iowa from gaining an advantage. But the best was Cornell coach Gabe Dean. He coached the PA team even though Cornell is in NY.

John DOES have a problem paying the post grads. He's still rooted in the way he did it - on pennies. That's just not the reality of Olympic Wrestling now. If he was willing to "pay" Ringer - he'd still be there.

 

[Wrassler17]

John DOES have a problem paying the post grads. He's still rooted in the way he did it - on pennies. That's just not the reality of Olympic Wrestling now. If he was willing to "pay" Ringer - he'd still be there.

Ya think?

BTW, biggest implies multiple.

 

[Okie_Pat]

John DOES have a problem paying the post grads. He's still rooted in the way he did it - on pennies. That's just not the reality of Olympic Wrestling now. If he was willing to "pay" Ringer - he'd still be there.

Ringer left for personal reasons. I think his girlfriend or something. But get your point

 

[vhsalum]

And it kills me that John could say PSU isn't getting the dividends of their FS program. Beyond the Ruth/DT years - That group stayed around to train for the olympics - Nico, Molinaro, DT, not to mention they had Bekzod, Gomez and Espinal all in the room.

That led to a recruiting class that included Zain, Nolf and Nickal.

And the current crew? Tell my RBY didn't win because Gilman was there. Nick Lee has Zain. Starocci and Brooks have Nolf, DT, Nickal, Snyder.

It baffles me that John could there are no dividends paid to the college team, when the last run of titles coincided with the OkieSt/Gator Wrestling Club being one of the best Freestyle clubs in the world.

 

[Wrassler17]

Ringer left for personal reasons. I think his girlfriend or something. But get your point

When Alex left, he mentioned his fiance is from Michigan. I think that was probably a factor in why he ultimately ended up there, but I think he was leaving regardless. John alluded to it when asked by Adam Engel the other day.

On a Flo podcast, Alex said he almost joined the NJRTC before deciding on Michigan's RTC. In fact, a couple of days before Alex's announcement, Pat Downey tweeted that Alex would be coming to NJ.

And if you think about it from Alex's perspective, a move likely offered more $ and better training partners.

 

[vhsalum]

When Alex left, he mentioned his fiance is from Michigan. I think that was probably a factor in why he ultimately ended up there, but I think he was leaving regardless. John alluded to it when asked by Adam Engel the other day.

On a Flo podcast, Alex said he almost joined the NJRTC before deciding on Michigan's RTC. In fact, a couple of days before Alex's announcement, Pat Downey tweeted that Alex would be coming to NJ.

And if you think about it from Alex's perspective, a move likely offered more $ and better training partners.

Exactly. There's just no reason Ringer should be gone. He was the second best 79kg wrestler in the world for the entirety of 2019. The market determines value, not what happened in years 1986-1992.

 

[leecothran]

I agree with y'all to an extent, but I also believe that a lot has changed at OSU since Alex and Derek left. The tune has changed a lot behind the scenes, and the fundraising and other things are taking place. Just have to be a little patient right now.

 

[leecothran]

Also Ringer promised his lady that they would move to Michigan when wrestling started to wind down. He was 26 years old at the time, and his fiancee got into a grad program at Michigan. I think the training partner issue was certainly a huge part of his move... although I think you can argue that you had AJ coming in, who is a better wrestler than Myles Amine (I know he was an Olympic bronze medalist... fight me)... Also Plott and Haas... but end of the day he did what was best for him and his future family. If it was all about money, that would be news to pretty much everybody involved.