My kids school is locked down and you have to this same shit and it works and no kids have died yet from a locked door.
Uvalde shootings
- Thread starter BluegrassPoke
- Start date
Wow a lot of school fires are intentionally set. That seems like a bigger issue then mass shootings after a quick google search.
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Man haven't had anything over 10 people die from a fire since 1954. I wonder why that would be? Fire safety systems installed or did they outlaw lighters?
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- In 2014–2018, U.S. fire departments responded to an estimated average of 3,230 structure fires in schools each year.
- These fires caused annual averages of one civilian death, 39 civilian injuries, and $37 million in direct property damage.
- Fires that were intentionally set were the leading cause of school fires, accounting for almost two of every five fires.
- School fires most often originated in a lavatory or locker room.
- Two-thirds of school fires occurred between 8 a.m. and 4 p.m.
US school fires, grades K-12, with 10 or more deaths
Date | Name | Location | Number of deaths |
| 03/18/1937 | Consolidated School, gas explosion | New London, TX | 294 |
| 03/04/1908 | Lakeview School | Collinwood, OH | 175 |
| 12/01/1958 | Our Lady of the Angels School | Chicago, IL | 95 |
| 05/17/1923 | The Cleveland School | Kershaw County, SC | 77 |
| 05/18/1927 | Bath Consolidated School | Bath, MI | 46 |
| 12/24/1924 | Babbs Switch School | Hobart, OK | 32 |
| 10/28/1915 | St. John's Parochial School | Peabody, MA | 21 |
| 03/31/1954 | Cleveland Hill School | Cheekowaga, NY | 15 |
Man haven't had anything over 10 people die from a fire since 1954. I wonder why that would be? Fire safety systems installed or did they outlaw lighters?
Never heard of cameras at a central location viewing station and magnetic locks that can be unlocked from a central location. OR electronic FOBS that can unlock those doors from the outside and be given to LE and Fire departments. Ever heard of technology? My office has both, and we are a small office.
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I'm not sure if it working in 1 school is evidence of a successful plan, considering that events like this are extremely unlikely when you compare the number of school shootings to the total number of schools in the nation (and we know that most schools are probably not as secure as your kid's school).
Obviously, the things you are suggesting make sense, and would be helpful. I'm just pointing out that every school is different. Different in number of students. Different in design/layout. Different in population density of surrounding areas. Different in many ways. Just saying "Lock the doors and post a guard" is simplistic. In many cases, it is completely unrealistic. It might be more realistic to try to build security fencing around every school and have armed guards allowing/preventing entrance onto the campus. That way, number of buildings, fire danger, and other concerns are mitigated.
There are 20 million+ AR-15s and millions more standard capacity magazines in circulation in the US. I'm not sure we will see an outright ban that would turn millions of law-abiding Americans into felons overnight. If you could somehow magically make them all disappear you still have who knows how many millions of handguns out there. The VT shooter killed 32 people with a 9mm Glock and a .22 caliber Walther.
Most shooters pass the mandatory background check when they purchase a firearm. Will a 30 day waiting period make a difference to a kid who has been planning his revenge for months or years? Probably not.
I think arming teachers is generally a bad idea. Next time you are at a parent/teacher meeting ask yourself if this person is capable of stopping an active killer. I'm just not sure how many are capable of the kind of violence needed to stop a teenager from killing a bunch of elementary school kids.
I have trained concealed carriers. Most classes are designed to ensure students understand the law and have some semblance of firearm safety. They shooting requirement is laughable. Most never take an advanced class, much less practice drawing from concealment, shooting on the move, clearing malfunctions, etc. Also see my comment about teachers and their ability to carry out violence.
I think the most realistic thing I have heard so far is try to make if difficult as possible to gain access to the building, but at the end of the day, it's probably not going to stop a determined shooter. Sadly, the goal is to reduce the amount of killing once it starts. Specially trained SROs and armed security will probably have to be part of the plan.
Ultimately, we have to do a better job of identifying to these kids before they get to the point of killing. That is where we should be spending money.
Most shooters pass the mandatory background check when they purchase a firearm. Will a 30 day waiting period make a difference to a kid who has been planning his revenge for months or years? Probably not.
I think arming teachers is generally a bad idea. Next time you are at a parent/teacher meeting ask yourself if this person is capable of stopping an active killer. I'm just not sure how many are capable of the kind of violence needed to stop a teenager from killing a bunch of elementary school kids.
I have trained concealed carriers. Most classes are designed to ensure students understand the law and have some semblance of firearm safety. They shooting requirement is laughable. Most never take an advanced class, much less practice drawing from concealment, shooting on the move, clearing malfunctions, etc. Also see my comment about teachers and their ability to carry out violence.
I think the most realistic thing I have heard so far is try to make if difficult as possible to gain access to the building, but at the end of the day, it's probably not going to stop a determined shooter. Sadly, the goal is to reduce the amount of killing once it starts. Specially trained SROs and armed security will probably have to be part of the plan.
Ultimately, we have to do a better job of identifying to these kids before they get to the point of killing. That is where we should be spending money.
I thought the same thing but didn't want to derail the thread. I was asked a question about one of my posts and responded.
And I am right there with you to look at those schools design and make a plan for safety. Outlawing guns does nothing to ease my mind personally. The issue is bigger and I would like a better approach to the issue then what both sides are presenting. This is politics at its best. Safety isn't the concern the concern is will my side be the winner. Not the children this is about power. Instead of eating a whole horse lets take a bite first is all I am saying.
I think you underestimate the level to which most individuals (on both sides) believe that their suggestions are the best solution to fix the problem. IMO, for most, it isn't about "winning", it is about finding the solution to the problem, and everyone fervently believes that they know the answer and that individuals who disagree are clearly wrong.
always gonna be murderers. Since the beginning of humans. Gotta control what we can control. Don’t know about bans. But I think you can definitely add some more strict gun controls. Toss some money into that and school safety.
No worries at all. I’m with you on not posting. I tell myself to not as well, but continue to draw myself in. Need to stop!
Which parts? The first part I’d definitely agree, was just being silly. What else is though, I’d love to be educated. I mean that sincerely, not trying to be sarcastic.
I’d even go as far to say it isn’t about a “winner” in politics these days bc none of the politicians really want a solution. They use these hot topic issues to drum up donations and support. But I’ve also become a pretty big cynic when it comes to politicians lately. That’s both sides of the aisle BTW.
To use a different example of inch vs mile, the argument used to be “stay out of our bedroom” and now we have grown men pissing next to little girls.
The first deterrent is securing the buildings, no doubt.
If we can not afford to pay for well trained security officers, training willing teachers is the only option we have to provide more security at the point of attack.
I agree the conceal carry classes are a joke when it comes to the shooting requirement, and the best training from that is the laws. No one is advocating just handing out firearms to teachers. I bet a few teachers would like to have a fire arm to protect themselves.
I think just like LE, these individuals would need to be trained by professionals to shoot and have requirements for minimum range time and proficiency and operating their weapon, and that would need to be picked up by the school district or maybe gun ranges would do it for free. Not everyone is cut out for this, but I can guarantee some teachers would be up for it. Some are probably retired military. You might have retired military willing to volunteer to perhaps to provide security, provide some training to tune them up, and the skills and labor is then cheap.
I sat next to the #2 person under the Obama Admin on a long flight back from Belgium in to D.C. Long story short, the ability to identify and figure out what students who will became an active shooter in a school is so complex it is next to impossible. Guy when I asked the question I thought was experiencing a panic attack. He said they have all the research and the "why", painted a very depressing picture and did not go in to great detail because it was so complicated and not enough time on the flight to discuss it all, and we had just ended about 20 min conversation on another educational issue.
My take on that? The federal government does not want to admit they can not stop it, and they don't believe the majority of the public is smart enough to understand all the complexities. So, they offer up political solutions that makes it look like they are trying and leverage it for votes and not solutions.
Making it difficult for unauthorized individuals to not be in the building is a good start. I personally think that if these shooters knew a teacher might be armed or that other similarly trained and armed personnel was inside the building, it might make them think twice. Certainly could also limit the damage if they can put them down.
Lady that works for us use to work in the Sheriff's office and they were told point blank if you shoot someone you will be considered guilty until proven innocent. She left. This was years ago, but she was for concealed carry, and may LE is. What was interesting is that she told me the media NEVER publicizes when a civilian kills a perp who is trying to kill someone or many. Back when movie theater shootings were happening, she said someone armed and sitting on the back row shot and killed someone who walked in with a weapon. Never heard about it. She said similar stories get spread thru LE, and they never understand why it never gets coverage. The only one I can really recall locally was the guy in the Louie's parking lot in OKC near Lake Hefner. It got local news, but the national news did not make a BFD out of it, and why not? Why is the assumption very few of us is capable of defending people. ALL Israeli citizens are expected to do that, do they have some special DNA? I think we might be surprised how many fully retired military personnel might be willing to do this to hang out with kids, get a free lunch, and serve this country for free. I think well trained teachers would do just fine, even it only amounted to 10% of them.
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We have 15.1M high school kids in this country. Does anyone believe we have the counseling and the surveillance capability to identify that one of out 15.1M kids that is going to become an active shooter in the next day, week, month, or year? Do you need parental permission to force counseling? We don't have enough highly trained counselors to do that, or the surveillance capability. And that is just at the HS level.
Totally agree. I’m a Democrat (probably not a shock to anyone) and what Biden’s administration has failed to accomplish so far has been remarkable. Politicians on both sides will tell their bases whatever they want to hear to get to the mountaintop (elected office). Once they get there, they do whatever the F they want. Disheartening is an understatement. Especially after a tragedy like Uvalde.
Guns (availability, culture, lethality et al) are in the domain of "everything".
Probably not, but it's a place where both sides can at least start to agree. Kids can be cruel but they can also be amazing. They have to be part of the solution. I don't have kids but I know many of you do. Are the anti bullying programs making any kind of difference? Are there programs where kids are also taught how to recognize some of the pre-attack signs of an active killer? Once a kid is found, the adults have to do a better job at not failing.
More importantly unchecked mental illness, and a profitable violent culture (in music, media etc.) that is accepted as normal.
Not sure the genie is ever going to be put back in the bottle on any of that, but we can make sure our kids are safe in schools thru upgraded security.
After 911, we didn't outlaw planes, we upgraded security.
It can be argued that making it more difficult for a kid to get a gun is an upgrade in security. Let's face it. These school shootings are almost always perpetrated by males between the ages of 15 and 19. Any hurdle that makes it more difficult for them to get their hands on a gun increases the chances that they will set off someone's alarm bells, leading to some type of intervention that saves lives. That can be a minimum age (21?) for purchase. A waiting period between purchase an acquisition. Licensing/Training requirements prior to purchase. Background checks. Etc.
I know that all of those are contentious. I'm just saying that the potential perpetrators who are getting stopped before killing people are being stopped because they did/posted/said something that caused someone to intervene before they were able to take action. The more hoops a kid has to jump through to get their hands on a weapon of choice, the more likely it is that someone's radar is going to be triggered.
There is no way it is a rumor. If you just look at the timeline, the shooter was in the school for at least 40 minutes (more likely an hour) before they killed him. It's a small town. He was engaged with a security guard before he entered the building. There is no way there weren't a decent number of cops/feds on the scene within 15 minutes of him entering the school.
Edit to add that he shot his grandmother in the face, and she called police before he even got to the school.
I think the logic is that the rifle is a hunting weapon while the handgun is more likely to be concealed and used for something surreptitious. A lot of kids hunt (with their father/mother/uncle, etc) at a very early age.
I see no way the first cop doesn’t go in immediately upon arrival. When children are being shot there is 0 time to wait for backup.
I don't disagree.
The kid that was the shooter had no business with a gun in his hands. This guy shouldn't have been able to slip thru the cracks.
Why not do both? We need to keep the most innocent in our country the safest.
If we can casually write a 40 billion dollar check to a country that doesn't matter across the sea, why can't we do all of this here?
I’m just so tired of hearing about these stories. My wife is a public school teacher. My kid turns 4 next month and will be in preschool next year. This is all too close to home.
Border Patrol had to ask a school staffer for a key because they couldn’t break down the classroom door. I realize the WSJ article above is paywalled. This is the AP story I posted yesterday:
Onlookers urged police to charge into Texas school
A mass shooting at a Texas elementary school left 19 children and two adults dead, adding to a gruesome series of mass killings in America.
apnews.com
EDIT: here’s an article from today. All around not a good look.
Authorities took an hour to stop Uvalde gunman, raising questions about law enforcement response
Officials clarified the timeline of the shooting Thursday after giving varying accounts. They refused to answer many questions about the tactics.
www.texastribune.org
