Nothing to do with lobbyists? You’re smarter than that. Politicians answer to money and voters, and gun rights groups/lobbies supply both. You’re correct that both sides are culpable.
Uvalde shootings
- Thread starter BluegrassPoke
- Start date
Maybe. He sure was emphatic and adamant about what a great job the cops did in this case. It seemed strange to me at the time that he was putting so much into making the cops on the scene look like heroes when we already knew that 21 innocent victims were dead (and many other wounded). In that situation, he could have easily said something about "we are still gathering information and putting together details of everything that happened", and focused on discussion of the victims and the shooter.
Hard to believe that anyone would make excuses for armed cops staying outside and doing crowd control, while a killer was murdering 10 year old kids...FOR 40+ MINUTES, but here we are.
I'm not saying you are wrong about some of the issues you mentioned. I am saying that none of those things should come into play when there is a guy killing innocent children. Hopefully there is a legitimate investigation into their actions, and we find out why he was allowed to do what he wanted for 40+ MINUTES. Maybe there is some kind of explanation, but it sure looks bad right now.
Makes my blood boil.
www.dailymail.co.uk
Texas cops: We waited for back up because 'we might have been shot'
Department of Safety Lt. Chris Olivarez made the astonishing comments during an appearance on CNN last night. He said 'American people need to understand' that the cops could have been shot.
As always you have to twist my words. Excuses? How about looking for phucking answers? Are you saying I believe they were in the right to just stand there? Hell no.
The Police can’t win today. They get criticized no matter what. Who in their right mind today would want to be a cop? How many have quit?
I am pointing out we have a Police crisis in this country and not for the reason people think. They have been taught to stand down, look at how many riots and stuff, people killed and raped in self-declared autonomy zones and they do nothing. Entire Police stations burned to the ground and no one arrested, no one stopped. Did you call Police cowards then?
It is a known fact in Chicago now they don’t get in until the shooting is done and they just get the body bags.
No excuses. But you have to ask why? In that very part of Texas Border patrol gets criticized for doing their job, accused of whipping people while on horseback. Where you one of those?
In the Russian military many of the troops got demoralized and stopped fighting, Why? You need to be highly motivated, supported, and trained to risk your life, IMO this country does not consistently support its police in a manner to keep them highly motivated today. I am sure the pool and quality of candidates in this country has dropped significantly.
We have the Rittenhouse situation because police I guess cowards to fully protect life and property.
In LA Police don't bother to arrest looters, and if they do the DA does not press charges, businesses have closed. Nationally, we see Police expected to stand down all the time and not enforce laws, and to not protect life and property and when they do arrest or shoot someone you have DA's letting the perp walk or pressing charges on the Police.
Young men all across see this, they feel empowered.
From a psychological point of view they have had to have beaten down, how many cops probably had their kid ask them, daddy are you racist? OR, daddy how come you did not help those people?
I am ok engaging in the gun issues in the country, but WTH is happening with Police is off topic in a situation they may have massively failed and we have other examples consistently across the country? All of sudden police all across has become cowards? Why is that? We all know why and in many situations around the country already. Both gun and police issues looks like national issue to me if you believe this mass shooting is also a national issue due to guns. Common sense. Like everything else it is BS.
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And you should know full and well that it’s not an either/or thing between Sending out good thoughts to a group and taking action. A person can do both. Some choose to just take action. Some choose to just send out thoughts. It’s not my place to tell them what to do and it’s not yours either. I don't know why you keep saying that I'm telling lies and twisting things. I agreed that action needs to be taken. I even said harder checks and different things like that or classes or whatever should be implemented to purchase guns. At least certain types and I didn’t even care if that was done personally as I’d pass it and hopefully everyone trying to get a gun would have to. I’ve said it before and will again, my wife and I have a 4 year old about to start Pre K and this has us nervous and looking for answers.
I also agree with Been that there’s a wide chasm between what we’re talking about here and taking away 2A or even physically guns from people. I actually came in here and asked you bc you said the thoughts and prayers thing and I had been told a few different reasons. Then you went turbo on me like you do anyone who isn’t in exact step with your thought process. I’m ready for you to just repeat your “lies and twisted” BS now like it’s some kind of trump card instead of using your mind, responding like an adult and actually having a dialogue.
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Freezing and retreating for an hour are two different things. I think most people could freeze initially at that time. But you go in regardless. I don’t care if you have a water gun. The alternative is what happened. Two classrooms of 10 year olds left to die.
Makes my blood boil.
Texas cops: We waited for back up because 'we might have been shot'
Department of Safety Lt. Chris Olivarez made the astonishing comments during an appearance on CNN last night. He said 'American people need to understand' that the cops could have been shot.
It is inexcusable. What a nightmare Uvalde must be at the moment. Small town. So many people mourning. Now, so many people pointing fingers and angry at each other. Just awful all the way around.
It's weird.
I can't really comment because I didn't watch it on the news.
Sounds like he needs a new brain trust.
Think these guys are available?
You should go find it on youtube. Watching it then, I thought it was strange. Knowing what we know now, it is absolutely bizarre. It is hard to even come up with a logical explanation as to what the heck is going on with this.It's weird.
I can't really comment because I didn't watch it on the news.
Sounds like he needs a new brain trust.
Think these guys are available?
I don’t mean to make excuses for them or excuse their actions. Just saying guards/arming the teachers isn’t a great solution. There were trained police here that didn’t react appropriately. The armed guard in Parkland went and hid. Some people do stupid stuff in crazy situations.
Things / questions I have, not looking for excuses, but solutions:
1. Anyone involved in firearms, knows a rifle vs pistol battle, the person armed with the rifle has a great advantage. A pistol in the military is your secondary weapon for very close contact. Someone shooting down a long school hall with a pistol vs someone with a rifle? The guy with the rifle will make a much more accurate shot. Someone with a pistol has to get much closer to the target for an accurate kill shot. Chances of winning that shootout is very slim unless you are unbelievably accurate with a pistol with a very short barrel compared to a rifle.
2. Local Police to respond to these situations and be given a fighting a chance need body armor, and they need training on high powered rifles and how to clear a building and cover each other. Otherwise, you are running in to a building exposed and with a lesser fire arm capable of making a long shot kill. I don't know what local police had and how they were armed, but they were not armed like the Border Patrol or trained like them. To some LE, going in to that building could be seen as a suicide mission, despite knowing that, any parent outside that building had you given them a pistol would have gone in with no body armor running towards danger. We should expect that from LE. But LE probably understands more than the general public of what they were up against.
3. In terms of clearing a room and going in and not knowing what is behind the door? That is the stuff of seal and SWAT teams. They practice quick target acquisition and they are highly accurate. They prefer going in the dark if possible using night sights to give them some target acquisition advantage.
4. So, if you want highly motivated and trained local Police to be able to handle a SWAT like situation in an active shooter situation in a school, then we need Federal dollars to do that. Local Police need the best rifles, body armor, and training. Training needs to be consistent, they need practice in quick and accurate target acquisition and how to clear buildings. But some want local LE to have no guns and tazers and for some first responder LE to be counselors. I also believe as a society we have demonized the Police long enough on a national basis, it impacts if LE is highly motivated and if they see their lives worth giving up because they know society loves them and does not hate them.
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How much training did gunman have? Less than the police. I can’t remember last time I saw a highway patrolmen or policeman without an AR in their car. But none of that really matters. You can’t let a classroom of 10 year olds fend for themselves. Regardless of risk.
Let me tell you something. The very first time I ever picked up and shot an AR-15 using only iron sights I was highly accurate hitting a pattern the size of a quarter from 25 yards. I was 55 and had glasses. First rifle (I had shot air guns prior) I had ever shot. I can't come anywhere close to doing that with my pistols. You show some lack of knowledge and that is ok and the understanding of what that gun battle really looks like. I am trying to offer solutions. But if you thought your chances of survival under the operational conditions was 95% or less? Again, I am offering solutions. Survival instinct is strong, that is why equalizing the battle field, providing better training, doing things to keep them motivated and confident is important.
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Sounds like it was quite a shoot out when they killed him. Suspect had 140+ used casings in that room along with 27 LE used casings.
New PC just now. The officer in charge decided that the shooter was a "barricaded subject" and not an "active shooter" and told 19 officers in the hallway to wait for the tactical team to arrive. Meanwhile, 911 calls were coming in from a teacher and a student in the classrooms reporting that victims were still alive and begging for police intervention. They have not clarified as to whether or not the 911 info was being relayed to the officers on site or not.
Guy doing the PC just admitted that "in hindsight", the officer in charge made a big mistake.
There were at least 15 officers on scene, with shields, for 35 minutes before the classroom door was breached.
There were at least 15 officers on scene, with shields, for 35 minutes before the classroom door was breached.
It’s almost like we shouldn’t let regular civilians have these kind of rifles that can shoot multiple rounds within seconds, are super easy to shoot and yet very powerful... Like an AR.
I am personally not in favor to have every single small town police force trained as a SWAT team. That doesn’t seem like good use of money. I read Uvalde already spends 40% of their yearly budget on police force and look what it bought them.
I was going to mow my lawn today but decided not to because I simply didn’t want to get too hot.Makes my blood boil.
Texas cops: We waited for back up because 'we might have been shot'
Department of Safety Lt. Chris Olivarez made the astonishing comments during an appearance on CNN last night. He said 'American people need to understand' that the cops could have been shot.
Unreal.
Prevention such as securing all school buildings is a good first step.
There is a reason they have to spend 40%......
There is a reason gun sales have gone thru the roof the last 2 years and it is not people afraid of weapons being outlawed. It is because time and time again over the last few years we have seen major unrest in which the police did nothing. Nothing. Here is perhaps another example. Civilians more and more feel they are their own best option for immediate self defense if needed.
As Pancreek noted, there is a reason why Americans are arming themselves.
One way to get fewer guns to be in circulation would be to strengthen LE and for them to put criminals behind bars and do actual policing and intervention. Cops in Chicago stopped intervening and preventing crimes because of it goes sideways and they feel their life is threatened and someone gets hurt, they can go to jail for life or a very long time. We have more of a hunger in some cities to put cops behind bars than criminals. many DA's don't even press charges for felony crimes, like all the looting in daylight in LA. It feeds and emboldens the criminal elements. People feel insecure.
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They also said he had stopped shooting as the last shots before the breach was 30 minutes from 12:21 til 12:50 something.
But agree they should have breached asap.
Yep. Forty percent of the town’s entire budget went to the police force. Talk about lousy ROI.
You’re a doc, right? I’ve never seen the cavitation a .223 round causes on the human body in person, but I’ve seen pictures presented by an OR doc who operated on adult GSW victims. It’s horrific. And these were 10-year-old bodies. I can’t imagine.
I’ve seen gun violence aftermath up close and personal. It’s terrible. Nobody needs to own an AR-15 IMO.
Umm this isn’t a battle field , it’s a ****ing 4th grade class. Congrats on admittedly picking up an AR at 55 years old and appearing to lecture me on lack of knowledge? I have been shooting guns since early childhood. Every shape and form of firearm. This isn’t about survival. This is about saving children at whatever cost. I can’t fathom the thought of screaming children in a classroom and trying to rationalize regrouping for near an hour.
We aren’t taking about the shootings and crime in big cities that happen every day here. That discussion can be had in another time. We are talking about shootings in schools, workplaces, theaters, supermarkets, etc. Which are overwhelmingly (almost all) carried out w an AR or something similar. Beefing up the already record breaking police budgets are not going to stop these kind of events.
Pretty crazy for him to comment in that way. For them to flat out admit a mistake on the officer there must have been 0 wiggle room . That dude is going to have to pack his shit and move pretty quick.
I’ve done a surgery on two people who faced each other and shot through both of their abdomens with hand guns. Went to surgery and both bullets went through the abdomen, past all the intestines and out the other side without even nicking bowel. Both guys. It was truly remarkable, the surgeon was so shook. Let’s just say that’s not happening if they are holding ARs or something like that.
All of you implying I am saying their actions were acceptable? Complete BS. Lie. Not rationalizing, some of you so emotional you can't even think straight, just want revenge and take it out on me. We need to solve this problem of LE, and not just call them all cowards, like we called them all racist.
It actually was worse than some of what has happened over in Ukraine. And if you have been shooting guns that long, you would know a pistol vs a rifle is not good odds at all. You don't seem to care to figure out why this happened, and psychologically for everyone it IS about survival when the flight or fight survival instinct kicks in. We are wired that way and can't control that response, and very seldom are we faced with it. And do we lack the training for LE to deal with it when faced with it? It will happen again if we don't figure out how to fix it.
Just easier to call them cowards and say we did our job. Everyone wants counselors and to figure out the why on these shooters but when it comes to the psychological state of LE and their behavior let's just hang em, say we all did our duty by hanging em, and not figure out the why and how to fix it, AND I FIND THAT UNACCEPTABLE TO NOT LEARN FROM THIS AND FIX IT.
My dad fought in WW2, and he said that the worst thing he learned about the war is what it revealed about himself and the lengths he would go to survive, he said he felt sub human over things he would do just to survive. The war made my dad feel like a criminal, not a war hero.
Some of you act like experts on AR's and never have even shot one.
I am as upset as everyone as to what has happened, I have had my fair share of personal tragedy in my family. Seriously bad shit, but fortunately wired mentally to deal with it. Emotions and anger changes nothing. Looking for solutions and how to move forward I have had to do too many times and transition to that quickly, or you get lost in emotion, anger, and hate. And those you love around you suffer for it.
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25-30% of mass shootings carried out with a pistol. As for record breaking police budgets? You telling me police budgets nationally have expanded the last 2 years? And you think for south Texas the open border has been a nightmare for local LE? With no federal help securing the border, local resources have had to be used. I talked to someone who recently worked in that town for a few weeks and he said twice Police had to shut down the main street from both ends to arrest some illegals. He said it was one of the few places he felt he needed to carry. Matthew McConaughey grew up there and he was asked what he learned growing up there and he said dealing. That place has only become worse.
If you don't see the big picture of how LE is being impacted due to what has happened in this country not sure what to say. Lady that works in my office came from a family in LE. She worked in the Sheriff's office and quit when they were told if they fire their weapon they would be considered guilty until proven innocent. That was in Oklahoma. No, it has not impacted the mental state of LE. None.
We need to beef up security for these schools.
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Well there are 20+ million in circulation so the toothpaste isn’t going back in the tube. I think solutions need to start with that understanding.
Not exactly sure what you are saying here. There’s so much more to it than saying AR’s are the problem. Bullet load and bullet design for any caliber can rip you up and “AR” has nothing to do with that.
Because you keep pushing BS that I somehow hate: "thoughts and prayers" . That is bullshit. Keep sending them and do nothing then you can keep sending them. How about doing something and preventing problems so the thoughts and prayers will not be needed.
My thoughts and prayers go out to you.
Serious question. Is there something that prevents the families, who lost loved ones, from suing the Uvalde police dept, city, feds, etc? I assume there are insurance policies that will come into play, but it looks like so many wrong decisions were made, and that caused more lives to be lost.
I don’t know if anything can keep anyone from suing anybody
I saw one report that the border patrol tactical team was on site at 12:10, but the Uvalde police would not let them attempt to breach the door until nearly 1:00 pm.
