it shouldn’t baffle you
cales lucky as hell he didn’t get popped
cale gambled, won and is now too big to fail or face consequence
thoughts on current state of affairs
- Thread starter tim73034
- Start date
it shouldn’t baffle you
cales lucky as hell he didn’t get popped
cale gambled, won and is now too big to fail or face consequence
It’s not a Cael or Tom Ryan or Tom Brands issue. It’s a why don’t you want more opportunities for our college athletes? I want Fix and Ringer making $100k a year post graduation, training at Oklahoma State helping Dustin Plott and whoever else comes through. Why don’t you? Why don’t certain fans want our favorite athletes making a living in our sport? I want all our best athletes to stay in the sport. I’d like to see a huge RTC at Oklahoma State! Complaining about what other programs have built won’t make that happen. Putting pressure on the coaches and administrators will. I’m on your side! I just want more opportunities and a level playing field. Forward not backwards.
I don't think you would find a soul who argue with any of this. The problem is we want to accomplish this without the fear that the NCAA is right around the corner ready to drop the hammer on RTCs and the programs who are utilizing them.
It is real easy to say go violate NCAA rules and the NCAA doesn't care about this when it isn't your rep and job on the line.
From USA Wrestling. I'm not aware of any from the NCAA. Do you know where I can find them?
That is the whole point. These are USA Wrestling guidelines, not from the NCAA. John Smith answers to the NCAA not USA Wrestling.
You won’t find any NCAA regulation on RTC. You are correct. The NCAA shouldn’t have anything to do with Freestyle or Greco and definitely would lower the budgets for them. I wouldn’t want them regulating something they have nothing to do with. A good question would be why would the NCAA regulate a USAW facility?
Then completely divorce the RTCs from NCAA wrestling programs. Let them find their own facilities and fund their coaching through USA Wrestling. Problem solved for everyone right?
Attached is the Track podcast that follows the one I linked previously. This is the one that mentions comments made by Zeke Jones that schools need to start reporting other schools to the NCAA.
Also mentioned in this podcast is that under the local sports club model - which is regulated by the NCAA I believe - there is no limit on how much senior athletes/coaches can be paid. So it shouldn't impact post grad opportunities. And you gain the NCAA oversight. To me that means the current deliberations are more about the college guys (and recruits).
IMO some teams are cheating right now. Forget about post grads, some RTCs are paying the current student/athletes. Why else would USA Wrestling update their guidelines to explicitly make that a violation? This was the Track example...say the school gives a kid a 25% scholly ($6K). Then boosters from the RTC pay him $1,500/day for a summer camp - so $6K for 4 days. Then the RTC gives him another $6K for room & board. Now he's on a 75% scholly. After the sign-on bonus at graduation he has zero debt, meaning he was really on a full ride for 4 years.
Zeke was supposed to be on the next podcast to answer questions. I didn't see it, so maybe he woke up with a horse's head in his bed.
https://www.trackwrestling.com/Port...824&twSessionId=wjsyzdkdgj&videoId=1678511132
It’s a why don’t you want more opportunities for our college athletes? The point is we do all want more opportunities for college athletes. We are down to 76 Div 1 programs. Over 500 college programs have been dropped in the last 50-60 years. Of the D1 programs, many do not fully fund the lowly 9.9 scholarships allowed by the NCAA. How are these programs going to compete with the few programs that can source from boosters not only a fully funded college program but a fully funded “professional” club program? They won’t. More programs will be dropped. More opportunities for many college athletes will be lost. The opportunity for education and better futures for these wrestlers will be lost. More scholarships will be cut at a time when scholarships have never had more value.
I want Fix and Ringer making $100k a year post graduation, training at Oklahoma State helping Dustin Plott and whoever else comes through. Why don’t you? I am sure everybody here wants this. I would wager most everybody here, myself included, want the same for Aaron Brooks and all other Penn St wrestlers. However, it needs to be done like every other sport that coexists with collegiate sports. College boosters endowing club programs to be used as carrots to recruit athletes with the intended purpose of winning NCAA championships is unique to college wrestling. More specifically, it is unique to a few college wresting programs that have put the quest for championships above the sport as a whole and have placed the sport at a crossroads which could take away the opportunities of thousands of wrestlers.
I want all our best athletes to stay in the sport. The pressure to make this happen needs to be placed on USAW and the wrestling community as a whole. If the sole goal of a wrestler post graduation is to win World and Olympic gold, then USAW needs to support them better. If the goal is to be a professional athlete and to make a living several times above the income of other recent graduates than professional opportunities typical to other sports need to be created. The wrestling community would need to support corporate sponsorships and/or support a viable league for athletes.
A USAW facility located on a NCAA member campus, paid for by a NCAA member’s booster’s money, with affiliations titled Penn State ROTC and Nittany Lion Wrestling Club and coached by coaches with NCAA certification. There seems to be a connection.
Good post. If NCAA wrestling suffers because of the current RTC setup and there is evidence that it very well might be and could greatly with severe NCAA sanction then the opportunities for the post grad athletes will be hurt as well.
Like it or not popularity, marketing and ultimately wrestlers value comes from college folk style wrestling here in this country. That losses steam or is further damaged and the opportunities for senior level guys are damaged along with it.
Great points and insight! It’s a tougher fix than it appears. There has to be a way to track the unreasonable camp payments. I run a club and anything we do with NCAA athletes goes through that schools compliance. I can tell you we can only pay reasonable wages. The NCAA doesn’t allow pictures or certain wording. They can’t be clinicians gotta be counselors. It’s pretty tight if done through the school. I’m not sure how people are blatantly cheating. We used PSU, VA TECH, UMD and WVU this past summer and they were all very strict
Regarding the camp $, Dave Mirikitani explained it in some detail.
There is the typical summer camp $ paid by the school (or the person running the camp). That's been around for years.
But under the current RTC model, there is now also booster $ paid to the athlete. He said one school allows up to $1500/day. In his example, the person running the camp might actually pay nothing for 4 days because the booster could pay the full $6000.
There is the typical summer camp $ paid by the school (or the person running the camp). That's been around for years.
But under the current RTC model, there is now also booster $ paid to the athlete. He said one school allows up to $1500/day. In his example, the person running the camp might actually pay nothing for 4 days because the booster could pay the full $6000.
And to be completely fair ... if thing you care about most is USA wrestling then I completely understand why you see nothing wrong with the current setup. However, I care about OSU/NCAA wrestling a lot more than international wrestling.
Agreed, I am more international. I think PSU was $100 per day max, but I’m not 100%. I’d like to see it all work!
And this is already illegal under NCAA rules. Current student athletes are only allowed to be paid the going rate:
From the NCAA Manual
13.12.2 Employment at Camp or Clinic. 13.12.2.1 Student-Athletes. A student-athlete may be employed in any sports camp or clinic, provided compensation is provided pursuant to the criteria of Bylaw 12.4.1. A student-athlete who only lectures or demonstrates at a camp/clinic may not receive compensation for his or her appearance at the camp/clinic. (Revised: 4/24/03 effective 8/1/03, 1/19/13 effective 8/1/13)
12.4 Employment. 12.4.1 Criteria Governing Compensation to Student-Athletes. Compensation may be paid to a student-athlete: [R] (Revised: 11/22/04, 4/19/19) (a) Only for work actually performed; and (b) At a rate commensurate with the going rate in that locality for similar services. 12.4.1.1 Athletics Reputation. Such compensation may not include any remuneration for value or utility that the student-athlete may have for the employer because of the publicity, reputation, fame or personal following that he or she has obtained because of athletics ability.
12.4.3 Camp/Clinic Employment, General Rule. A student-athlete may be employed by his or her institution, by another institution, or by a private organization to work in a camp or clinic as a counselor, unless otherwise restricted by NCAA legislation (see Bylaw 13.12 for regulations relating to camps and clinics).
All this, taken together, means that paying a current student athlete for camps is only allowed at the going rate and only if they work the camp, not if they just appear to show technique or attract campers. In no location is the going rate going to approach $1500/day. There is also a rule in there declaring that promising athletes payment is illegal, even if said payment is made after graduation.
It is interesting that the things most often discussed as being an issue with the RTCs are already illegal so I agree with Zeke. If you can prove it, report it. I don't think anyone believes that any college sport is clean so it stands to reason someone is cheating in wrestling (and perhaps many someones). That said, that doesn't mean RTCs are bad.
Finally, it strikes me that John's public comments (limited as they have been) mostly surround the one place where there does seem to be a conflict between RTC rules and NCAA rules, the 50-mile radius (NCAA local club) and the 250-mile radius (RTC standard). I can see where that could be an issue. However, calls for greater funding for the RTC have little to do with that. It is the senior-level athletes getting paid and being able to hang around Stillwater that is the big need, IMO. If John really thinks the NCAA will crack down on the contact with prospective student-athletes, he could still build out the senior-level aspect while self-restricting himself to NCAA local club rules if he so chooses.
I like that all the participants are in agreement, but with different solutions. It is all doable with communication.
Pretty much agree. And the last paragraph is a real head scratcher for me.
A couple of things about schools reporting violations to the NCAA.
Generally speaking, I think the vast majority of coaches would like to avoid it. But if schools don't straighten out, then someone may be forced to do it. The other thing is that proving illegal payments might be difficult. Mirikitani mentioned the rumor that some guys are being paid with casino chips. You might need a recruit or college guy to go on record.
Agreed...being a huge bureaucracy, the NCAA will not take a nuanced look at it either. I think coaches fear that if one gets in big trouble, the whole RTC system goes down.
oklahoma state has been hammered by the ncaa
football damn near got the death penalty
wrestling lost schollies and was severely hampered in the 90’s
caels approach was to push the rules as far as he wanted build a power house and let the chips fall where they may
has absolutely zero to do with wanting usa wrestling, wrestlers or the sport to succeed
i can promise you if rtc’s were legal with zero grey area
oklahoma state would be at the forefront facility and program wise
Cause they are funded by Boosters of said school and cohabitate. NCAA doesn’t regulate big red sports either
Ok, so my son attends Penn State. So, this would be why we have no clue of additional payments to athletes? I’m trying to figure out who the elephant in the room is lol! I know who it is not, What schools boosters are paying the college recruits or athletes above market value?
No one is saying people are being paid in advance. At least I’m not.
The list of highly-respected college coaches who have come out, on the record and said the system needs some reforming is staggering. Even coaches with incredibly successful RTCs are saying changes need to be made. You either believe these guys know a thing about college wrestling or you don't.
Whether you think cheating is happening or not, RTCs have become too intertwined with college programs to have zero oversight from the NCAA.
Whether you think cheating is happening or not, RTCs have become too intertwined with college programs to have zero oversight from the NCAA.
then you know penn st wrestlers have paid international training available to them upon graduation in a facility that sits on their campus
Now just imagine oklahoma state basketball offering paid training position at its on campus facility
As an inducement to sign high school hoopsters
You see the grey area?????
The Regional Training Center Coaching staff is comprised of Cael Sanderson, Cody Sanderson, Casey Cunningham, Jake Varner, Mark McKnight, and Eric Thompson.
This program is known as the NLWC Resident Athlete Program, and it is designed to provide the coaching, training environment, and financial support necessary for these individuals to compete for and win Olympic and World Championships.
Well I said it. And I posted multiple links in this thread where several coaches have strongly implied it. I'm not sure how anyone could read the comments made by Bono, Garland, Zeke & Askren and interpret it otherwise.
For those that think no college guys (or recruits) are being illegally paid according to the existing NCAA rules, what do you make of the comments made by those coaches?
Exactly, Cowguy, they are being promised coaching positions in the RTC after they graduate and these are not $12,000 per year positions. I understand they make as much as $100,00. Not saying every athlete is paid this but the top ones apparently are. This is an illegal inducement and you do not need to be a lawyer to figure it out. The kicker is not how much they are being paid as I think too long schools including OK State have paid student coaches a pittance but the promise of these jobs.
I followed you.
Last month, USAW updated their written guidelines to explicitly state that RTCs were prohibited from paying college age athletes. Why? I believe it's because multiple coaches are implying that some RTCs are paying guys while still in college.
You and I just disagree on this one.
And have done so outside of the NCAA rules and guidelines.
Bill Zadick was on a podcast the other day and made some comments about the RTC discussions.
Given his role as the National Team coach, it won't be a surprise to hear that he opposes the recent recommendations made by the Big12 and other conferences. This is the stuff about who can contact & work with recruits, not about post grad compensation. Said representatives from both sides are exchanging drafts on the new language.
Given his role as the National Team coach, it won't be a surprise to hear that he opposes the recent recommendations made by the Big12 and other conferences. This is the stuff about who can contact & work with recruits, not about post grad compensation. Said representatives from both sides are exchanging drafts on the new language.
Below is the Track podcast on the new RTC regulations effective beginning 9/1/19.
Discussion starts around the 35:45 mark. It covers mostly minor stuff, except for a new rule that you can no longer hire parents as RTC coaches going forward.
Discussion on the bigger stuff about paying current college guys (yes, current) or promising them jobs after graduation starts around the 53 mark. Basically the regulations now explicitly state that stuff is not allowed. And any violations must be reported in writing to USAW.
Now will anyone report another school/RTC?
https://www.trackwrestling.com/Port...858&twSessionId=rsezwhfghv&videoId=1685055132
Discussion starts around the 35:45 mark. It covers mostly minor stuff, except for a new rule that you can no longer hire parents as RTC coaches going forward.
Discussion on the bigger stuff about paying current college guys (yes, current) or promising them jobs after graduation starts around the 53 mark. Basically the regulations now explicitly state that stuff is not allowed. And any violations must be reported in writing to USAW.
Now will anyone report another school/RTC?
https://www.trackwrestling.com/Port...858&twSessionId=rsezwhfghv&videoId=1685055132
If a Penn State wants to be the school to train Freestyle athletes I say let it but they should not be allowed to break the rules of the NCAA or compete with the NCAA teams that follow the rules. I am in agreement with with those in this thread who expressed more interest in watching our Cowboys compete in Folkstyle than following Freestyle either world or Olympics. I watch freestyle and cheer for our wrestlers but it is not with the same enthusiasm I watch Folkstyle.
This is gonna get interesting. Way bigger than wrestling obviously.
https://www.espn.com/college-sports...s-profit-names-images-likenesses?platform=amp
https://www.espn.com/college-sports...s-profit-names-images-likenesses?platform=amp
So, now does this mean Daton can host camps of his own and get paid without worrying about NCAA ramifications?
