I get the impression that our program is "frozen in place" so to speak in regards to the trend towards what RTC's are doing and how they are being used.. while I like the effect they have had on our results international and for the sport in this country as a whole, I dont like the environment they have created on the college level.. My opinion / suspicion is that Cael thought this loophole up while he was still at Iowa State.. Remember that year that they had a monster recruiting class? when someone in the administration got cold feet about moving forward, he decided to take his talents and idea to another program, Penn State. Penn State was desperate for success and ready to make a commitment.. He put his system into place, which is using the prospect of payment / tuition paid for after graduation to greatly increase Penn States available scholarship potential and gave himself the ability to cherry pick exactly who he wanted.. It took people awhile to catch on. Once they did, programs were faced with the choice to either do it themselves, snitch (and potentially open themselves up to be snitched on for every incidental meeting or phone call) or see their chances of ever winning a team title reduced to slim to none.. I personally wish we would at least get our going to the point that we can keep the guys we want post graduation and pull some other post grad's our way to help elevate the room..
thoughts on current state of affairs
- Thread starter tim73034
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I know he got a huge raise. At the time a little money went a long ways. It still does relative to football but it is going up in leaps and bounds. I do think we are locked and loaded monetarily for both a new facility and RTC costs but are locked up like you said until we know what we can do.
I want Ok State to win every year... but I want it done without having to straight up buy recruits, which is basically what is happening now.. It gives me a lot more respect for teams that stayed on top for years by making the most with who they recruited and developing talent.. its no secret that being a 4 timer was no guarantee of any real college success .. Gable perfected the art or recruiting the guys he knew he could coach and get the most out of.. this was before the internet or flo or any of the stuff going on now..
that's true, for now.. they have the potential to have several on the same team next year.. they have multiple guys in contention, which only helps there cause
Pretty much agree. Not sure about RTCs being Cael's brainchild though. I do think Cael and Ryan were the first to exploit them, however - remember Ryan had Kyle Snyder practice with World Team members Tervel, Bergman & Gavin during his official visit way back in 2012. Then other coaches/schools followed suit.
I'm still not clear what our position or strategy is regarding RTCs (the post grad side). We do have athletes (Alex, Eddie & Derek) and coaches (Derek & Zo), so it's not like we are completely opposed to them. But those numbers are dwarfed by other schools, which are aggressively fundraising and growing. The OP said "frozen in place", which seems right. Maybe another way to say it is that some schools are swimming in the deep end, some are waist deep, and then some are just sticking a foot in the water (us).
Lastly, I've seen some people post that we are waiting on the NCAA to make some type of ruling. But as far as I know, nothing is before them to decide right now. Every coach coming out of the recent convention said the same thing - there are no rules today (absolutely zero) & the NCAA is not getting involved. So basically there is no stop sign and no cop.
i feel pretty strongly that should someone get caught, it will be lights out.. look at what happened with joe seay... Titles would be taken away and people would be run out of wrestling.
Tim,
What rule would they be enforcing? It sounds like, as long as you don’t offer recruits any additional incentive (like, we’ll pay you to work our RTC upon graduation), RTC’s in and of themselves are not illegal. And as mentioned above, there’s no clamor to even look into them by the NCAA.
As long as the coaches aren’t breaking any NCAA rules on offering athletes improper benefits (post grad employment, cash, or any other benefit that’s already against the rules), I’m not sure how the NCAA could go after them.
Micco that appears to be what’s happening.
I’m not going to name the person who told me this, but it was at the ncaa’s in St. Louis the last time there.
Me: “how does a school, an expensive school, get so many top recruits with limited scholarship dollars?”
Him: “imagine a scenario where you could tell a good recruit he could take out school loans and on his graduation day he got a check that wiped out that debt to commit for a specified time to work the rtc”
This guy is an assistant coach at another program.
Is it happening just like this? I obviously can’t tell you. But is there anything that would stop this from happening, especially if all involved kept their mouthes shut?
Imagine Duke or UNC basketball being allowed to run an AAU amateur basketball program where they can allow and select recruits to come use their state of the art facilities, interact with current players and coaches and receive gear and travel assistance. That alone is a black and white recruiting violation.
Then they also then are allowed to run a a full salaried professional basketball team where the school is in charge of the hiring. Again, a clear black and white violation or NCAA amateurism rules.
The only reason that nothing has really happened is because college wrestling doesn’t move the needle and the NCAA doesn’t have the manpower or time to jump in and try to regulate this issue. If the above scenario was happening in one of the two revenue generating sports the NCAA would be actively involved and it would be national headlines.
One would think it would be fairly easy to ask the NCAA for written guidelines on ROTC programs if a wrestling power program was so inclined.
This is what is amazing to me. It should be real easy for the NCAA to let every know what the lay of the land is.
The NCAA would have to be deaf,dumb and blind not to know what some RTC's are doing. I can not believe that if any coach, particularly a John Smith, ask for a clarification that the NCAA could ignore it. Micco, I believe you are wrong (Not the first time) in claiming it is not illegal. It is an illegal inducement to promise monetary gain after a college career. It would be the same in any sport to promise a job to a recruit after they graduated.
The brain child of RTCs was Zeke Jones back when he was the senior men’s Freestyle head coach. Obviously, Zadick had helped advance the system. These kids are not paid, they are supported with coaches to train 12 months a year, travel expenses if possible and senior world or national team partners. We are closing the gap on the rest of the world.
RTCs are a USA Wrestling entity completely separate from the NCAA. The NCAA has no authority over them, so I'm not sure they would provide any guidelines or clarification even if asked. Why would they get involved? That's my understanding anyway. I think John suggested moving back to the local sports club model so there would at least be some rules and oversight.
The Flo podcast was a joke. Besides being a John bash fest, one of them actually said he was OK with boosters paying for a recruit's tuition or the RTC paying off student debt.
Well Trackwrestling actually had a good podcast on the topic (below). Discussion starts around the 22:20 mark. It's long, but Mirikitani made some of the following points:
- Some schools (RTCs) are able to pay kids big camp money (while in college), plus room & board (in college), plus sign-on bonuses (at graduation) to circumvent the 9.9 scholarships. Effectively providing for up to 25 full scholarships instead of 10.
- None of it is technically illegal based on the current written guidelines. All gray areas.
- Switching to local sports clubs is unlikely to prevent it because schools will just move things around and structure things differently.
- A big name coach said back in May that schools need to start regulating themselves before someone they don't want (NCAA?) does the regulating for them. The other coaches blew him off.
https://www.trackwrestling.com/tw/P...467&twSessionId=fodspbkbjm&videoId=1676173132
The Flo podcast was a joke. Besides being a John bash fest, one of them actually said he was OK with boosters paying for a recruit's tuition or the RTC paying off student debt.
Well Trackwrestling actually had a good podcast on the topic (below). Discussion starts around the 22:20 mark. It's long, but Mirikitani made some of the following points:
- Some schools (RTCs) are able to pay kids big camp money (while in college), plus room & board (in college), plus sign-on bonuses (at graduation) to circumvent the 9.9 scholarships. Effectively providing for up to 25 full scholarships instead of 10.
- None of it is technically illegal based on the current written guidelines. All gray areas.
- Switching to local sports clubs is unlikely to prevent it because schools will just move things around and structure things differently.
- A big name coach said back in May that schools need to start regulating themselves before someone they don't want (NCAA?) does the regulating for them. The other coaches blew him off.
https://www.trackwrestling.com/tw/P...467&twSessionId=fodspbkbjm&videoId=1676173132
And potentially doing so in stark contrast to recruiting rules and amateurism guidelines of the NCAA and potentially hurting college wrestling in the process.
I love it for our international development but not in this manner. At some point it will come to a head and fundamental changes will be made.
A level international playing field would allow kids to choose Freestyle over folk and still get a free education and receive money for competitions. This will never happen, but I understand the frustration of those who’s primary concern is college wrestling not international victories. I’m not sure how they will balance it all, but we can’t take steps backwards. We need to pay the guys who are graduated and still competing or wrestling will lose even more guys to MMA
I agree that we need to but the money can’t come from or be tied to university wrestling programs or we will take a step back when the NCAA steps in a makes fundamental changes abruptly.
I think the current setup also hurts college wrestling as a whole and will eventually hurt the recent growth it has seen. Like it or not the popularity of “wrestling” here in the US is always going to be tied to American folkstyle and college wrestling. We need continued parity and continued growth at the college level in terms of programs and the competitive landscape.
Very good points. Let’s hope our leaders can figure it out. USAW is in a great place right now.
OSU basketball players can go pro if they are good enough. That is why there are no RTCs for basketball or baseball or football or soccer etc. Get the point. We have finally found a way to keep our best guys wrestling. Now we have to make sure it is not abused etc, but we also should try to give our best guys with a dream of winning Olympic titles, an avenue to do it. Lets not throw the baby out with the bath water.
Maybe I am wrong, but Taylor is a world champ. I thought Gwiz trained with the NLWC. Gomez was training up there for a while. Provisor a greco guy was training there. Now Zain is on the team. Money has a way of getting things done. Also, the people who should be concerned are the Hawks. They are falling behind and not only not getting guys on the team, but they are not getting guys in the 2nd or 3rd spot either. Other than Gilman, they have been almost a non entity. OSU has Fix and Ringer making headlines. Cornell has Yianni and Dake. tOSU has Snyder and had Steiber. The hawks are having trouble keeping up. The same is true at the Junior level.
I will tell you if teams and USA wrestling don’t begin to work with the NCAA to regulate and make some changes to the current setup at some point the NCAA will come in and make sweeping and fundamental changes and we could undue a bunch of progress.
Of course it is great for USA Wrestling. They’ve developed a system where college wrestling fans foot the bill for things USA Wrestling should be doing.
On the flip side of that if USAW can figure out a way to scholarship guys into colleges or a college and field a freestyle team for college aged athletes like the EAP is doing for high school, some of our top guys won’t compete in folkstyle.
It’s possible but the risk of halting the recent growth of wrestling will have to be be taken very seriously. USAW benefits greatly from NCAA wrestling building the top level wrestlers into marketable and recognizable sports figures.
Popularity in wrestling and more specifically wrestlers is driven here in the USA by college wrestling. More people show up for a big Iowa, PSU, OSU or OhSt dual than they do for the big national level events.
The NCAA tournament drives major ratings and interest for wrestling. If you have the top tier wrestlers only competing at the Ferrall, US Open, Dougu, WTT, etc... wrestling as a sport will suffer and so will the earning potential and marketability of the individual wrestlers.
I think we all want a system that develops the best team we can get - without creating an unfair advantage for certain college programs. I think the rtc can be done well. They just need some sort of oversight.
My thought (maybe it's a hope or a dream) on this issue is that someday in the, hopefully, not too distant future this will be thought of as the steroid era of college wrestling and there will be an implied asterisk on all of Penn State's ill-gotten championships.
If nothing changes and the NCAA finally gets around to doing a deep dive into it all then it’s very possible. I would prefer the university’s and USAW get ahead of this and make some of the needed changes and add legitimate oversight so that it doesn’t happen.
Kids are not being paid to go to schools by RTCs. Kids attend schools with RTCs to pursue freestyle or Greco with access to partners.
I think that probably is more likely than not the case (did you notice how i never fully committed there
). But normally with the NCAA, the appearance of impropriety is as bad as impropriety itself.So, the rumors abound. I agree that the NCAA and USAW should sit down, draft clear-cut rules, publish them, and enforce as necessary. Then everyone knows what they can and can't do (or at least should and shouldn't do).
Makes the rumors and innuendo go away, makes a level playing field (except for the amount of money in each RTC) and allows wrestlers to continue their careers after college.
I think the issue is the extra benefits that RTCs provide amateur college athletes (travel expenses, gear, camp fees, etc) when they are tied to directly university programs. These can and likely do fall under the definition of illegal extra benefits under the NCAA guidelines.
The RTC’s can also offer post graduate employment whether it’s flat out offered, alluded to or by a wink and a nudge. No matter the method it also falls under illegal benefits and is a strict violation in the eyes of the NCAA.
I am very confident if the NCAA did a deep dive they would find booster ties and university ties in those university affiliated RTC’s which is illegal.
I love what RTCs have done for American international wrestling but if the universities and USAW don’t sit down and enact oversight and make changes the NCAA at some point will and they will be sweeping and severely damaging as they have zero interest in protecting anyone other than amateur athletes.
This article covers the RTC discussions held at the recent coaches' conference.
https://www.trackwrestling.com/Port...5926&twSessionId=nmkztlksdb&postId=1676036132
USA Wrestling planned to amend their guidelines to explicitly state that paying current (age) student/athletes is prohibited. That's kind of interesting, no?
There are plenty of indications that certain RTCs are abusing the current system:
- Bono called it the Wild Wild West - other college coaches have made similar remarks.
- Askren (Wisconsin's RTC coach) said that some schools are cheating (100% certainty).
- The Trackwrestling podcast linked previously talks about certain RTC boosters paying college kids big camp $ (up to $1,500/day). This is completely separate from the normal summer camp $ that has been around for years.
- Zeke Jones (cited in this thread) told Trackwrestling that schools have changed his original idea for RTCs. He also said that the things being murmured are NCAA violations and teams have to start reporting them (that's different than just asking for guidance IMO).
Some people say a lot of this stuff is just rumors. Others say it's sour grapes. But if the coaches don't heed the warning signs, the NCAA might just come in and blow it all up. There's gonna be a lot of upset people then.
https://www.trackwrestling.com/Port...5926&twSessionId=nmkztlksdb&postId=1676036132
USA Wrestling planned to amend their guidelines to explicitly state that paying current (age) student/athletes is prohibited. That's kind of interesting, no?
There are plenty of indications that certain RTCs are abusing the current system:
- Bono called it the Wild Wild West - other college coaches have made similar remarks.
- Askren (Wisconsin's RTC coach) said that some schools are cheating (100% certainty).
- The Trackwrestling podcast linked previously talks about certain RTC boosters paying college kids big camp $ (up to $1,500/day). This is completely separate from the normal summer camp $ that has been around for years.
- Zeke Jones (cited in this thread) told Trackwrestling that schools have changed his original idea for RTCs. He also said that the things being murmured are NCAA violations and teams have to start reporting them (that's different than just asking for guidance IMO).
Some people say a lot of this stuff is just rumors. Others say it's sour grapes. But if the coaches don't heed the warning signs, the NCAA might just come in and blow it all up. There's gonna be a lot of upset people then.
Titan Mercury and Sunkist pay college and HS athletes daily travel wages and are allowed by the NCAA to pay for travel expenses for wrestling activities. The RTCs can only pay for the same things. If any of the kids work camps they can get paid a set wage. If non RTC clubs have camps they can pay the kids also. They just have to stay within the guidelines. Can’t pay Starters a higher wage and I believe there is a cap on how much they can pay. I know some of these coaches are abusing the rules and I agree that having an RTC is an advantage, but everyone has the opportunity to grow their program and fund raise. Some are just better than others. I look at Oklahoma State and their wrestling and coaching legacy and I don’t understand why they don’t have one of the Best RTCs in America. All the studs that are now coaches at other programs or running other programs RTCs. John Smith is the most decorated American Freestyle wrestler of all time. I’m an outsider and it baffles me.
This has been a fight that many NCAA athletes have had for a very long time. These kids only have so long to utilize their fame or athletic reputation. The NCAA wants every penny they can absorb. At least the football and basketball players get large bonuses or professional contracts. I don’t think we should hinder the money they make at camps if they are out working and coaching kids. I like many want a level playing field, but instead of shutting down RTCs, I’d rather add more and pay more professionals and increase our employment opportunities for wrestlers. Here are two examples out of 10 that I found on line.
9. Outside employment. The NCAA allows players to have paying jobs. They may rarely have the time to do so, but it is permitted if the work is performed at an amount comparable to the going rate in that area for similar services. The payment isn't supposed to be due to athletic ability or publicity for the employer due to the athlete's presence. An athlete can be employed by his or university, another school, or a private organization to work in a camp or clinic as a counselor.
10. Self-employment. This NCAA rule still says an athlete may establish a business only if his or her name, photo, appearance or athletic reputation are not used to promote the business. But the NCAA now tackles this issue on a case-by-case basis and has said it will grant appropriate waivers if athletes have similar opportunities as other students for entrepreneurial aspirations. Most famously, Minnesota wrestler Joel Bauman tested the NCAA in 2013 by promoting that he was an NCAA wrestler on a music video he produced. Bauman declined to remove his name from any songs and eliminate any promotion of his status as an NCAA athlete. He got declared ineligible, a firestorm erupted, and he brilliantly turned the publicity into a marketing job.
"I knew what I was doing the whole time," Bauman said in "Indentured: The Story of the Rebellion Against the NCAA," a recent book about the college sports industry. "The NCAA is pretty predictable."
9. Outside employment. The NCAA allows players to have paying jobs. They may rarely have the time to do so, but it is permitted if the work is performed at an amount comparable to the going rate in that area for similar services. The payment isn't supposed to be due to athletic ability or publicity for the employer due to the athlete's presence. An athlete can be employed by his or university, another school, or a private organization to work in a camp or clinic as a counselor.
10. Self-employment. This NCAA rule still says an athlete may establish a business only if his or her name, photo, appearance or athletic reputation are not used to promote the business. But the NCAA now tackles this issue on a case-by-case basis and has said it will grant appropriate waivers if athletes have similar opportunities as other students for entrepreneurial aspirations. Most famously, Minnesota wrestler Joel Bauman tested the NCAA in 2013 by promoting that he was an NCAA wrestler on a music video he produced. Bauman declined to remove his name from any songs and eliminate any promotion of his status as an NCAA athlete. He got declared ineligible, a firestorm erupted, and he brilliantly turned the publicity into a marketing job.
"I knew what I was doing the whole time," Bauman said in "Indentured: The Story of the Rebellion Against the NCAA," a recent book about the college sports industry. "The NCAA is pretty predictable."
