Russia and Brandon

[OKSTATE1]

The US has already lost eastern Ukraine and here is why:

1. US went from peace thru strength, to war thru weakness. Voting over mean tweets and not recognizing Trump was respected by our enemies? Thank suburban moms. Brandon said America was back, he was right, we are walking backwards in world respect.

2. Afghanistan - US lost trust within NATO over how the US pulled out, US no longer has the influence and leadership role it had in Europe and NATO. This is already visible on how some allies are reacting versus how the US has reacted.

3. IMO once Russia takes what it wants in Ukraine, it would be the perfect time for China to invade Taiwan. If I was China the timing would be perfect, I would do it a couple of days after Russia invades. US IMO right now is not capable in taking on both Russia and China in an all out war. You can talk all you want about US military might but the US has not won a war outright in a long time, and we lack CIC to give us that leadership and confidence to win. Prevention was key here, and it looks like we needed a true commander in chief and a military less focused on the "domestic threat of white nationalism as our greatest threat", this admin weakened this US from within. Music to our enemies ears, our military being groomed to enforce laws at home over a fake threat. Media screwed this country over. Putin will weaken our NATO alliance further.

4. Ukraine is already mostly surrounded and 8,500 US troops is a joke in terms of a serious threat. US should have been deploying men and materials months ago if it was serious about protecting Ukraine. Brandon took way too many naps and Putin was never going to respect Brandon diplomacy.

5. Brandon green lighting the Nordstrom pipeline was a huge mistake. Trump wanted to expand even further US and other sources of gas and oil for Europe and particularly Germany. Germany as an ally is silent, they rely on Russian gas and oil . So weird we heard all about Russia and Trump, but Trump saw this coming. Putin has split our allies over gas/economy, Brandon a complete idiot. The first surrender in this war was Brandon green lighting that pipeline.

I believe Russia has Brandon in check mate, I don't see how if Russia invades soon, how the US can be anywhere close to making a meaningful impact to stop Russia. Once Russia gets embedded in Ukraine, our invading forces will be at huge disadvantage and IMO we lose untold lives in terms of US troops to root Russia out. Again, I don't think this country can stomach that with this CIC.

The real question right now IMO is the US prepared to engage in all out war with Russia, followed by China and the NK? Does the US have the leadership with NATO to lead NATO thru this type of crisis. This is a commander in chief that screwed up the evacuation of Afghanistan and we rely on him to potentially lead an invasion?

US options look horrible right now if Russia attacks. Do you invade and potentially start WW3? Do you do nothing and let Russia and China make the land grab they want?

Our Dim leadership got caught with their pants down, they also do not understand that energy strength and freedom is also military strength and freedom. more worried about trees. Our concern with global warming made the US a much weaker global power.

Brandon will have done more harm in a little over a year to the US, that just based on that short time frame he will go down as the worst US President and the US will be in a lower place than it was in self confidence and worldwide leadership than just before the miracle on ice that saw US nationalism and pride swell to a new era of US leadership and expectations. Hell, Brandon might take us to inflation levels not seen since the Nixon administration.

Brandon represents complete failure and lower expectations.

Obama was more than correct when he said do not underestimate Brandon's ability to screw things up. Brandon more worried about COVID, election laws, racism, and massive social spending and his naps and vacation trips each week-end than focusing on foreign diplomacy and strengthening US energy, the US economy, etc... Without energy independence, without a strong economy, you are a wounded animal and become the hunted.

This administration will set the US back at least 40 years.

 

[2012Bearcat]

Ukraine and Taiwan were lost the moment Biden was put in office, its only a matter of timing from here. Both Russia and China know Biden is an empty suit and that our military might has been substantially and purposely weakened by the leftist woke agenda in the military. Add in the fact Germany has allowed themselves to be effectively cucked by Russia and the UN is useless. Who else is there to stand against Russia or China? Answer, no one.

 

[Mr.OSU]

Ukraine and Taiwan were lost the moment Biden was put in office, its only a matter of timing from here. Both Russia and China know Biden is an empty suit and that our military might has been substantially and purposely weakened by the leftist woke agenda in the military. Add in the fact Germany has allowed themselves to be effectively cucked by Russia and the UN is useless. Who else is there to stand against Russia or China? Answer, no one.

He’s a weak fragile guy. Foreign leaders have no fear of the man.

 

[OKSTATE1]

 

[AC2020]

 

[AC2020]

 

[launch]

 

[Ponca Dan]

The US has already lost eastern Ukraine and here is why:

1. US went from peace thru strength, to war thru weakness. Voting over mean tweets and not recognizing Trump was respected by our enemies? Thank suburban moms. Brandon said America was back, he was right, we are walking backwards in world respect.

2. Afghanistan - US lost trust within NATO over how the US pulled out, US no longer has the influence and leadership role it had in Europe and NATO. This is already visible on how some allies are reacting versus how the US has reacted.

3. IMO once Russia takes what it wants in Ukraine, it would be the perfect time for China to invade Taiwan. If I was China the timing would be perfect, I would do it a couple of days after Russia invades. US IMO right now is not capable in taking on both Russia and China in an all out war. You can talk all you want about US military might but the US has not won a war outright in a long time, and we lack CIC to give us that leadership and confidence to win. Prevention was key here, and it looks like we needed a true commander in chief and a military less focused on the "domestic threat of white nationalism as our greatest threat", this admin weakened this US from within. Music to our enemies ears, our military being groomed to enforce laws at home over a fake threat. Media screwed this country over. Putin will weaken our NATO alliance further.

4. Ukraine is already mostly surrounded and 8,500 US troops is a joke in terms of a serious threat. US should have been deploying men and materials months ago if it was serious about protecting Ukraine. Brandon took way too many naps and Putin was never going to respect Brandon diplomacy.

5. Brandon green lighting the Nordstrom pipeline was a huge mistake. Trump wanted to expand even further US and other sources of gas and oil for Europe and particularly Germany. Germany as an ally is silent, they rely on Russian gas and oil . So weird we heard all about Russia and Trump, but Trump saw this coming. Putin has split our allies over gas/economy, Brandon a complete idiot. The first surrender in this war was Brandon green lighting that pipeline.

I believe Russia has Brandon in check mate, I don't see how if Russia invades soon, how the US can be anywhere close to making a meaningful impact to stop Russia. Once Russia gets embedded in Ukraine, our invading forces will be at huge disadvantage and IMO we lose untold lives in terms of US troops to root Russia out. Again, I don't think this country can stomach that with this CIC.

The real question right now IMO is the US prepared to engage in all out war with Russia, followed by China and the NK? Does the US have the leadership with NATO to lead NATO thru this type of crisis. This is a commander in chief that screwed up the evacuation of Afghanistan and we rely on him to potentially lead an invasion?

US options look horrible right now if Russia attacks. Do you invade and potentially start WW3? Do you do nothing and let Russia and China make the land grab they want?

Our Dim leadership got caught with their pants down, they also do not understand that energy strength and freedom is also military strength and freedom. more worried about trees. Our concern with global warming made the US a much weaker global power.

Brandon will have done more harm in a little over a year to the US, that just based on that short time frame he will go down as the worst US President and the US will be in a lower place than it was in self confidence and worldwide leadership than just before the miracle on ice that saw US nationalism and pride swell to a new era of US leadership and expectations. Hell, Brandon might take us to inflation levels not seen since the Nixon administration.

Brandon represents complete failure and lower expectations.

Obama was more than correct when he said do not underestimate Brandon's ability to screw things up. Brandon more worried about COVID, election laws, racism, and massive social spending and his naps and vacation trips each week-end than focusing on foreign diplomacy and strengthening US energy, the US economy, etc... Without energy independence, without a strong economy, you are a wounded animal and become the hunted.

This administration will set the US back at least 40 years.

Russia does not want to invade and occupy Ukraine. If they did invade and occupy Ukraine it would because they didn’t want to see the US & NATO invade and occupy Ukraine and set up military installations on their border. You have it backwards here. It’s the US & NATO that are the aggressors.

But let’s assume Russia invades and occupies Ukraine. I assume you think the US & NATO should react by sending in troops. Why do you think the US in particular should do that? What is there about a mission of driving Russia out of Ukraine that is in the US’s interest? Why should our troops’ lives and our national treasure be expended on “saving” Ukraine? What’s the payoff? In what way is Ukraine part of American interest?

 

[squeak]

We can’t invade Russia unless we know their pronouns.

 

[OKSTATE1]

Russia does not want to invade and occupy Ukraine. If they did invade and occupy Ukraine it would because they didn’t want to see the US & NATO invade and occupy Ukraine and set up military installations on their border. You have it backwards here. It’s the US & NATO that are the aggressors.

But let’s assume Russia invades and occupies Ukraine. I assume you think the US & NATO should react by sending in troops. Why do you think the US in particular should do that? What is there about a mission of driving Russia out of Ukraine that is in the US’s interest? Why should our troops’ lives and our national treasure be expended on “saving” Ukraine? What’s the payoff? In what way is Ukraine part of American interest?

Ukraine should have the right to join NATO if they choose, that is not aggression on the part of Ukraine or the US or NATO if you ask me... And you have me all wrong... Brandon has already lost this war, I have said that in a couple of posts now.

Posted this in another thread...

So hard to invade and over take once Russia gets rooted in. We don't have the leadership in place to put forward a winning strategy on a war they already lost. Milley and Brandon calling the shots? NATO that does not trust us? Germany that wants Russian LP gas? They get cut off on gas and there is not enough LP tankers to keep them going. Anyone notice what happened on our withdrawal with Afghanistan with this bunch in charge? If you don't invade with overwhelming force you have no chance. And getting in will be the slaughter of US soldiers. We already gave up the high ground. Some may not like me saying this, but as Americans we over value tremendously our ability to wage and win wars. The US played a major role in WW2, and we like to think we won it, but if you are honest about it, Russia paid a far bigger price and forced the Nazis to spread themselves too thin. Russia lost over 20M lives in WW2, what the US (200K - 300K) lost is a fraction of that. Russia lured the Nazis in to their brutal winter homeland and slaughtered them, and Russia paid a very high price. I have always felt Russia played rope a dope with Germany and out lasted them. Putin said a few years ago the US always gets too much credit for winning the war, and on this I agree. Certainly, the bomb took Japan out and pretty much ended it. But Japan would have gone eventually at a heavy price.

What significant war has the US "won" since WW2? I would think long and hard about taking on Russia based on the current environment. Sacrifice in war? Russia knows what that means, over 20M dead. US is concerned about gender and bathrooms.

Brandon and his leaders asleep at the wheel, we are in check mate. This was a problem they should have addressed months ago but like everything else they are always late and screw everything up. Sleepy phucking Brandon is no joke and his whole crew of incompetent wokesters that manufacture fake problems they can solve, they have no idea, or the leadership, or the fortitude to take up real problems.

And who wants to go fight for a CIC that has been saying white nationalism is the greatest threat to our security? How about Milley who said he wants to understand white hatred? Those 2 need to be the first guys to invade.

NATO is divided right now, our own country is divided as hell. Who wants to go risk their lives for the great divider when what we needed was real diplomacy, and peace thru strength? How about taking your first year and further dividing the country? Forget military might, NATO and this country is not mentally ready for a war with Russia, especially when the US will start way down on the scoreboard due to incompetency. Some in the military is still not over what they thought was betrayal in how we left Afghanistan.

I am proud of anyone that serves our country, but no way in hell would I tell my grandson to go fight to the death to bail out a CIC that phucked this up so bad, starting with Brandon approving the Russian pipeline, that was a strategic move by Russia to finance their war and split NATO by bribing Germany with LP Gas. That was the first shot fired, and Brandon caved, and probably was paid off to do it.

I don't care to see American lives lost over the incompetence of our CIC and those that voted for Brandon. America will not be same from this, it simply will not. It could take awhile with a great President(s) to regain our international stature.

Whole thing pisses me off frankly. Thanks to the DNC and the Dims they have taken this country to a very dark and depressing state of affairs. You can ask yourself how much worse can it get? Our allies don't respect and trust us, our enemies see us super weak and lacking our American values (see us destroying them), and at home we mostly really hate each other depending on your political values. Inflation racing past the increase in real wages, empty shelves, people addicted to COVID protocols for no reason, crime out of control, border wide open, a media that lies to us all, and just on and on. How much worse can it get? I am afraid it can, I am concerned what Obama said about Brandon really has no bottom.

 

[Rdcldad]

heard it here our eastern flank is ukraine

next question

our southern flank is wide open is there a plant to secure the border?

 

[squeak]

heard it here our eastern flank is ukraine

next question

our southern flank is wide open is there a plant to secure the border?

View embedded media

Kamala has that covered.

 

[100TonsofOrangeFury]

it would because they didn’t want to see the US & NATO invade and occupy Ukraine and set up military installations on their border. You have it backwards here. It’s the US & NATO that are the aggressors.

You sound like a leftist describing capitalism or the founding of our country. Intellectually bankrupt.

 

[Ponca Dan]

Ukraine should have the right to join NATO if they choose, that is not aggression on the part of Ukraine or the US or NATO if you ask me... And you have me all wrong... Brandon has already lost this war, I have said that in a couple of posts now.

Posted this in another thread...

So hard to invade and over take once Russia gets rooted in. We don't have the leadership in place to put forward a winning strategy on a war they already lost. Milley and Brandon calling the shots? NATO that does not trust us? Germany that wants Russian LP gas? They get cut off on gas and there is not enough LP tankers to keep them going. Anyone notice what happened on our withdrawal with Afghanistan with this bunch in charge? If you don't invade with overwhelming force you have no chance. And getting in will be the slaughter of US soldiers. We already gave up the high ground. Some may not like me saying this, but as Americans we over value tremendously our ability to wage and win wars. The US played a major role in WW2, and we like to think we won it, but if you are honest about it, Russia paid a far bigger price and forced the Nazis to spread themselves too thin. Russia lost over 20M lives in WW2, what the US (200K - 300K) lost is a fraction of that. Russia lured the Nazis in to their brutal winter homeland and slaughtered them, and Russia paid a very high price. I have always felt Russia played rope a dope with Germany and out lasted them. Putin said a few years ago the US always gets too much credit for winning the war, and on this I agree. Certainly, the bomb took Japan out and pretty much ended it. But Japan would have gone eventually at a heavy price.

What significant war has the US "won" since WW2? I would think long and hard about taking on Russia based on the current environment. Sacrifice in war? Russia knows what that means, over 20M dead. US is concerned about gender and bathrooms.

Brandon and his leaders asleep at the wheel, we are in check mate. This was a problem they should have addressed months ago but like everything else they are always late and screw everything up. Sleepy phucking Brandon is no joke and his whole crew of incompetent wokesters that manufacture fake problems they can solve, they have no idea, or the leadership, or the fortitude to take up real problems.

And who wants to go fight for a CIC that has been saying white nationalism is the greatest threat to our security? How about Milley who said he wants to understand white hatred? Those 2 need to be the first guys to invade.

NATO is divided right now, our own country is divided as hell. Who wants to go risk their lives for the great divider when what we needed was real diplomacy, and peace thru strength? How about taking your first year and further dividing the country? Forget military might, NATO and this country is not mentally ready for a war with Russia, especially when the US will start way down on the scoreboard due to incompetency. Some in the military is still not over what they thought was betrayal in how we left Afghanistan.

I am proud of anyone that serves our country, but no way in hell would I tell my grandson to go fight to the death to bail out a CIC that phucked this up so bad, starting with Brandon approving the Russian pipeline, that was a strategic move by Russia to finance their war and split NATO by bribing Germany with LP Gas. That was the first shot fired, and Brandon caved, and probably was paid off to do it.

I don't care to see American lives lost over the incompetence of our CIC and those that voted for Brandon. America will not be same from this, it simply will not. It could take awhile with a great President to regain our international stature.

Whole thing pisses me off frankly. Thanks to the DNC and the Dims they have taken this country to a very dark and depressing state of affairs. You can ask yourself how much worse can it get? Our allies don't respect and trust us, our enemies see us super weak and lacking our American values (see us destroying them), and at home we mostly really hate each other depending on your political values. Inflation racing past the increase in real wages, empty shelves, people addicted to COVID protocols for no reason, crime out of control, border wide open, a media that lies to us all, and just on and on. How much worse can it get? I am afraid it can, I am concerned what Obama said about Brandon really has no bottom.

The problem is the US inspired a coup against the democratically elected Ukrainian government that it perceived was being too pro-Russian, and installed their own puppet. It led to a bloody civil war because the eastern half of Ukraine considers itself more aligned with Russia and does not want to be part of NATO, an organization it considers aggressively hostile to their preferences. So when you suggest Ukraine has a right to join NATO if it wants to you are saying the American-installed puppet should get priority over what anyone else wants. The whole affair is a giant clusterf__k very much of America’s making because our war hawks are itching to prove how much bigger their dicks are than Putin’s. I don’t think this is about Biden’s weakness as much as it is about our security state having their own coup of sorts right here in the good old USA.

 

[Ponca Dan]

You sound like a leftist describing capitalism or the founding of our country. Intellectually bankrupt.

No I don’t. I sound like someone who can see things from Russia's perspective who thinks if Russia set up shop in Canada we would react exactly the same way.

 

[OKSTATE1]

No I don’t. I sound like someone who can see things from Russia's perspective who thinks if Russia set up shop in Canada we would react exactly the same way.

They set up shop in Cuba already.

 

[Rdcldad]

Kamala has that covered.

extremely funny

 

[Ponca Dan]

They set up shop in Cuba already.

And we saw how JFK responded.

 

[100TonsofOrangeFury]

No I don’t. I sound like someone who can see things from Russia's perspective who thinks if Russia set up shop in Canada we would react exactly the same way.

How many troops do we have in Ukraine or on its border?

As usual, you are wetting your pants over a hypothetical.

 

[Ponca Dan]

How many troops do we have in Ukraine or on its border?

As usual, you are wetting your pants over a hypothetical.

I don’t know. Do you?

It’s a very realistic hypothetical. I suppose the “wetting your pants” was meant to demean me, but we ignore this “hypothetical” at our own peril.

 

[OKSTATE1]

And we saw how JFK responded.

They are a communist regime. And as for your so called elections in Ukraine, you really believe the communists allowed a fair election?

Bottom line is this. I don't want the US in one single war. The best way to prevent that is to have an overwhelming war machine that no one will consider taking on. I also believe Trump knew this was coming and hence his position on the Russian pipeline, wanting NATO partners to pay their fair share, making the US a net exporter of oil and gas, HE GOT IT. No way IMO, Russia does this with Trump and his advisers in the WH, diplomatically we would have been ahead of this, Trump would have made the military a priority as he did, and he would have pulled us out of Afghanistan with all of our people and equipment and we would have maintained our international respect.

This is a total collapse of the Brandon administration.

 

[Ponca Dan]

They are a communist regime. And as for your so called elections in Ukraine, you really believe the communists allowed a fair election?

Bottom line is this. I don't want the US in one single war. The best way to prevent that is to have an overwhelming war machine that no one will consider taking on. I also believe Trump knew this was coming and hence his position on the Russian pipeline, wanting NATO partners to pay their fair share, making the US a net exporter of oil and gas, HE GOT IT. No way IMO, Russia does this with Trump and his advisers in the WH, diplomatically we would have been ahead of this, Trump would have made the military a priority as he did, and he would have pulled us out of Afghanistan with all of our people and equipment and we would have maintained our international respect.

This is a total collapse of the Brandon administration.

Russia’s connection to Ukraine goes back further than America’s connection to Texas. If there was a chance a hostile foreign government might talk Texas into voluntarily seceding so that foreign government could set up military bases and offensive missile installations in Texas, how do you suppose Washington would react?

 

[OKSTATE1]

Russia’s connection to Ukraine goes back further than America’s connection to Texas. If there was a chance a hostile foreign government might talk Texas into voluntarily seceding so that foreign government could set up military bases and offensive missile installations in Texas, how do you suppose Washington would react?

We would not be here if not for Brandon, you just skip over that to postulate your world order view and you don't even vote. In Ukraine you would not have voted and be telling everyone what to do. You hide behind an Ukraine election you would not have participated in.

Ukraine is not part of Russia and they claimed independence.

 

[DCandtheUTBand]

False analogies. false accusations. inaccurate moral equivalency. ludicrous hypotheticals .

a fanboy of the kleptocrat Saint Vladimeer the Redeemeer.

 

[Scottsdale.Sooner]

Russia does not want to invade and occupy Ukraine. If they did invade and occupy Ukraine it would because they didn’t want to see the US & NATO invade and occupy Ukraine and set up military installations on their border. You have it backwards here. It’s the US & NATO that are the aggressors.

But let’s assume Russia invades and occupies Ukraine. I assume you think the US & NATO should react by sending in troops. Why do you think the US in particular should do that? What is there about a mission of driving Russia out of Ukraine that is in the US’s interest? Why should our troops’ lives and our national treasure be expended on “saving” Ukraine? What’s the payoff? In what way is Ukraine part of American interest?

I don't believe it is cut and dried as you portray. NATO is a fragmented group of countries that cannot seem to agree on much. NATO does not have the capability to "invade" Ukraine with the USA. NATO troops are typically utilized as peace keeping forces. NATO majority wants no part of this pending conflict. Germany and France (NATO heavyweights) have already stated they will not support any troops build up in Ukraine.

 

[Ponca Dan]

We would not be here if not for Brandon, you just skip over that to postulate your world order view and you don't even vote. In Ukraine you would not have voted and be telling everyone what to do. You hide behind an Ukraine election you would not have participated in.

Ukraine is not part of Russia and they claimed independence.

Where you and I disagree the most is I don’t think Biden, or any president, has that much say in what the military/security state decides to put us through. Their job is to sell what they’re told to sell to the public.

My non-voting has nothing to do with the conversation, I fail to see why you brought it up.

I would defer to @Scottsdale.Sooner in reference to how tied together are Russia and Ukraine, certainly eastern Ukraine and Crimea.

 

[Scottsdale.Sooner]

They are a communist regime. And as for your so called elections in Ukraine, you really believe the communists allowed a fair election?

Bottom line is this. I don't want the US in one single war. The best way to prevent that is to have an overwhelming war machine that no one will consider taking on. I also believe Trump knew this was coming and hence his position on the Russian pipeline, wanting NATO partners to pay their fair share, making the US a net exporter of oil and gas, HE GOT IT. No way IMO, Russia does this with Trump and his advisers in the WH, diplomatically we would have been ahead of this, Trump would have made the military a priority as he did, and he would have pulled us out of Afghanistan with all of our people and equipment and we would have maintained our international respect.

This is a total collapse of the Brandon administration.

Neither Trump's, Obama's or Biden's position on Nord Stream pipelines had any material effect on Russia. EU wants the gas and has defied the US on taking the gas. Russia has learned to live with sanctions. NS1 was completed long ago and has been delivering gas to the EU. NS2 was delayed until Gazprom procured the necessary offshore equipment to complete the line.

I believe you missed one very important point. Trump was prepared to insure that Ukraine would not be invited to join NATO and no NATO bases would be established in Ukraine. Trump fully understood that Putin is an enemy when he is given reason to be an enemy.

 

[OKSTATE1]

Where you and I disagree the most is I don’t think Biden, or any president, has that much say in what the military/security state decides to put us through. Their job is to sell what they’re told to sell to the public.

My non-voting has nothing to do with the conversation, I fail to see why you brought it up.

I would defer to @Scottsdale.Sooner in reference to how tied together are Russia and Ukraine, certainly eastern Ukraine and Crimea.

I beg to differ. I am sorry but how can you not vote and then hide behind elections? Makes zero sense to me if you actually believe in elections as a way to govern. If don't believe in voting, what alternate method of governance do you believe in.

Trump was his own man, he set in motion getting out of Afghanistan.

 

[OUSOONER67]

 

[Scottsdale.Sooner]

Where you and I disagree the most is I don’t think Biden, or any president, has that much say in what the military/security state decides to put us through. Their job is to sell what they’re told to sell to the public.

My non-voting has nothing to do with the conversation, I fail to see why you brought it up.

I would defer to @Scottsdale.Sooner in reference to how tied together are Russia and Ukraine, certainly eastern Ukraine and Crimea.

Ukraine was a member of CIS prior to 2014 civil war. Since the civil war the country has been divided east/west. Easter Ukraine and Crimea are pro-Russia with occupying armed forces is Donetsk and Luhansk regions. Crimea voted to be annexed by Russia as an independent province.

Kiev and the western provinces pledge allegiance to the EU in hopes of gaining entry in 2024. It is widely believed that entry will depend on Ukraine not being admitted to NATO (read the fine print!). Based on what I hear on Russian TV news programs it is reported that a majority of the EU countries see Ukraine joining NATO as an act of aggression towards immediate Russian borders and should form a condition the joining the EU.

If Biden had an ounce of intelligence this could be settled quickly. The Ukraine represents nothing to the USA. Putin is on the right side of the Nord Stream issues. Ukraine was selling Russian gas to the EU and not paying for it in return. The Kremlin decided to cut Ukraine out and built two direct subsea lines to East Germany. Sacrifice Ukraine for the sake of peace in the region. Divide Ukraine into East and West. Give the west the chance to join EU once they clean up the corruption and get themselves in order. Insure they are never allowed to join NATO with no NATO presence in western Ukraine. Allow the east to declare themselves pro-Russian and the CIS (same as Caucus countries).

 

[Ponca Dan]

Ukraine was a member of CIS prior to 2014 civil war. Since the civil war the country has been divided east/west. Easter Ukraine and Crimea are pro-Russia with occupying armed forces is Donetsk and Luhansk regions. Crimea voted to be annexed by Russia as an independent province.

Kiev and the western provinces pledge allegiance to the EU in hopes of gaining entry in 2024. It is widely believed that entry will depend on Ukraine not being admitted to NATO (read the fine print!). Based on what I hear on Russian TV news programs it is reported that a majority of the EU countries see Ukraine joining NATO as an act of aggression towards immediate Russian borders and should form a condition the joining the EU.

If Biden had an ounce of intelligence this could be settled quickly. The Ukraine represents nothing to the USA. Putin is on the right side of the Nord Stream issues. Ukraine was selling Russian gas to the EU and not paying for it in return. The Kremlin decided to cut Ukraine out and built two direct subsea lines to East Germany. Sacrifice Ukraine for the sake of peace in the region. Divide Ukraine into East and West. Give the west the chance to join EU once they clean up the corruption and get themselves in order. Insure they are never allowed to join NATO with no NATO presence in western Ukraine. Allow the east to declare themselves pro-Russian and the CIS (same as Caucus countries).

Thank you for your input.

 

[aix_xpert]

Ukraine was a member of CIS prior to 2014 civil war. Since the civil war the country has been divided east/west. Easter Ukraine and Crimea are pro-Russia with occupying armed forces is Donetsk and Luhansk regions. Crimea voted to be annexed by Russia as an independent province.

Kiev and the western provinces pledge allegiance to the EU in hopes of gaining entry in 2024. It is widely believed that entry will depend on Ukraine not being admitted to NATO (read the fine print!). Based on what I hear on Russian TV news programs it is reported that a majority of the EU countries see Ukraine joining NATO as an act of aggression towards immediate Russian borders and should form a condition the joining the EU.

If Biden had an ounce of intelligence this could be settled quickly. The Ukraine represents nothing to the USA. Putin is on the right side of the Nord Stream issues. Ukraine was selling Russian gas to the EU and not paying for it in return. The Kremlin decided to cut Ukraine out and built two direct subsea lines to East Germany. Sacrifice Ukraine for the sake of peace in the region. Divide Ukraine into East and West. Give the west the chance to join EU once they clean up the corruption and get themselves in order. Insure they are never allowed to join NATO with no NATO presence in western Ukraine. Allow the east to declare themselves pro-Russian and the CIS (same as Caucus countries).

I agree with everything written here. Question for discussion: Does it scare any of the Western Countries (such as the US) to set a precedent for dividing a country based on ideological lines such as defined above? Given the continued polarization of western civilization (its not just the US where Conservatives and Liberals are butting heads), does this risk setting a potential precedent for other countries? As soon as England was able to Brexit, you heard rumblings of Italy and Greece looking at the possibility and using that precedent as the strategic model. Would this not potentially be setting a similar global precedent?

 

[DCandtheUTBand]

I agree with everything written here. Question for discussion: Does it scare any of the Western Countries (such as the US) to set a precedent for dividing a country based on ideological lines such as defined above? Given the continued polarization of western civilization (its not just the US where Conservatives and Liberals are butting heads), does this risk setting a potential precedent for other countries? As soon as England was able to Brexit, you heard rumblings of Italy and Greece looking at the possibility and using that precedent as the strategic model. Would this not potentially be setting a similar global precedent?

Its called Northern Ireland. It voted to stay with the UK when the rest voted for independence.

It led to years of terrorism via the IRA who rejected the vote.

Would Ukrainian unionist engage in such warfare should Eastern Ukraine vote to go with Russia?

Would it be a legitimate vote with Putin behind the scene? Would unionist take land in the west and move?

 

[aix_xpert]

Its called Northern Ireland. It voted to stay with the UK when the rest voted for independence.

It led to years of terrorism via the IRA who rejected the vote.

Would Ukrainian unionist engage in such warfare should Eastern Ukraine vote to go with Russia?

Would it be a legitimate vote with Putin behind the scene? Would unionist take land in the west and move?

Northern Ireland is probably a good example, just a bit before my time. While I remember stories of IRA bombings when I was much younger, and I've read Clear and Present Danger, I'm just not well versed in Ireland's split and the politics around it.

 

[Medic007]

 

[DCandtheUTBand]

Northern Ireland is probably a good example, just a bit before my time. While I remember stories of IRA bombings when I was much younger, and I've read Clear and Present Danger, I'm just not well versed in Ireland's split and the politics around it.

LOL well I cant be too much older than you. I had a Catholic roommate who was Half Irish/Half Italian. He was pro-IRA. I am sixth gen Irish + mutt. My family were protestants and norman.

Catholics wanted to go with Ireland proper but NI was protestant, led by the Orangemen and Ulster Unionists. They wanted to stay with the UK and so they did. This occurred in the 1920s. Low intensity terrorism went on for 70 years.

In 1998 the status quo was codified,

 

[Scottsdale.Sooner]

My initial interest in the Irish conflict was tweaked when I read "Trinity" by Leon Uris. I have a very good friend and colleague from Belfast. His family has been in Belfast for many generations. He is protestant. It took many nights in many pubs for him to bring me to a better understanding of the Troubles. The Troubles took roots about 500 years ago when England took control over Ireland. The Tudor Conquest. Henry VIII planted English nobility to Ireland and granted them huge tracts of land. All of them Church of England Protestants. The Catholic commoners set a course to reclaim their land and run the English out of Ireland. My first real time recollection of the conflict was the Bobby Sands hunger strike in 1981 and Enniskillen in 1987.

 

[JimmyBob]

It took many nights in many pubs for him to bring me to a better understanding of the Troubles.

Damn, I, my bro Darrell, and my other bro Darrell love perseverance! 🍻

 

[DCandtheUTBand]

800 years ago was the beginning of the Norman Conquest of Ireland. And the real story was that Ireland was in the middle of civil war and one side invited the Norman/English in. They never left. They imposed English law and language in an area called the Pale and imported workers from England.

The Tudor wave was about supplanting the Catholics and putting down Yorkist nobles but Ireland was already under English control via its Norman vassals. They controlled the area called the Pale. They also controlled some areas beyond the Pale as personal fiefdoms outside the control of London and the Irish Parliament.

By the time of the Tudor wave they were assimilated. The Tudors also got rid of their autonomy and private fiefdoms. This did not go well with some of the previously loyal subjects.

 

[iasooner2000]

And now we know the rest of the story, “beyond the pale”