Night 2 of the 2nd Dem Debate

[100TonsofOrangeFury]

I'll give you this my_2cents, I like your optimism and ability to articulate your positions. But you're fooling yourself if you don't see that this faux anger and hatred of Trump/America that bleeds out of every Dem candidate will not resonate in any general election.

The angriest two, Warren and Bernie, are the very ones who've been in Washington the longest and are clearly most responsible for the state of things that they clearly, or pretend, to despise. Their shallow posturing and angry ranting looks really phony to Phyillis in Peoria.

 

[Medic007]

I'm sorry but I don't believe this is true Ponca. Maybe you believe this to be true, but I have seen very little evidence of it in your posts on this board. You are much more inclined and embracing of the right than you are the left.

That's hilarious! Look at the progressive NPC telling Ponca Dan what his political thoughts are.

Hey my_Tooncents, not everyone requires tube feedings for their political beliefs like you do.

 

[my_2cents]

The angriest two, Warren and Bernie, are the very ones who've been in Washington the longest and are clearly most responsible for the state of things that they clearly, or pretend, to despise. Their shallow posturing and angry ranting looks really phony to Phyillis in Peoria.

Wow, are you seriously trying to claim Warren and Sanders are part of the establishment and that is how they are seen by Americans? Maybe a case could be made that Warren has establishment ties, but I've never heard the claim that Sanders is establishment and responsible for the state of things lol.

And Phyillis in Peoria knows this. That is why she just sent $10 to Sanders' campaign.

 

[my_2cents]

But you're fooling yourself if you don't see that this faux anger and hatred of Trump/America that bleeds out of every Dem candidate will not resonate in any general election

Don't conflate Trump and America together. One can strongly oppose Trump and what he stands for without hating America. Trump isn't America and America isn't Trump.

And right now, a majority of Americans oppose Trump but have a great love America. If you can't see how Trump is already in serious trouble when it comes to 2020, then you are the one embracing a delusion.

 

[Ponca Dan]

I'm sorry but I don't believe this is true Ponca. Maybe you believe this to be true, but I have seen very little evidence of it in your posts on this board. You are much more inclined and embracing of the right than you are the left.

You're seeing what you want to see, and disregarding the rest. You probably feel I'm a right-winger because you're a left-winger, and I spend a lot of time arguing with you. Apparently what you have missed is the multiple times I have argued with the professed right-wingers on this board, often heated exchanges and often two or three or four to one. I have probably argued with the right-wingers more than those on the left simply because there are so many more right-wingers on this board.

Besides, what possible sense would it make for me (if I was a right-winger) to support Tulsi Gabbard for president when she is an anti-war left wing progressive? Sorry, 2 cents, you just swung and missed.

 

[OSU_Orlando]

The company? I am going to assume you meant country, and once again, no they won't. That is nothing but fearmongering. They will both strengthen this country and help Americans. They represent the future.

If you want to keep dreaming about the past, go right ahead. It isn't coming back though and it is way past time to fix the serious problems we are facing today.



Didn't mean it as a slap. Just was saying it sounded exactly like what one would expect from a Republican today, which you are.

Typing from my phone, yes meant country. The GND estimated costs would be 8 - 12 Trillion dollars in just the first 10 years including just the energy and environmental portions without even looking at the more social justice/job related initiates which would be closer to $50 Trillion over it's lifetime.

Kamala's Medicare For All proposal is again disingenious with how they explain paying for it by tax increases on Wall St, it would only generate close to $2 Trillion in increased tax revenue.

For reference, Bernie's Medicare for All proposal would be somewhere near $30 Trillion.

If her healthcare plan costs anywhere near what Bernie's does, it will absolutely bankrupt the country and she's also in favor the GND. This is pie in the sky ideas that would wreck our very way of life.

 

[my_2cents]

You're seeing what you want to see, and disregarding the rest. You probably feel I'm a right-winger because you're a left-winger, and I spend a lot of time arguing with you. Apparently what you have missed is the multiple times I have argued with the professed right-wingers on this board, often heated exchanges and often two or three or four to one. I have probably argued with the right-wingers more than those on the left simply because there are so many more right-wingers on this board.

Ponca, I've seen your posts. I read them even if I don't always comment on them. And again, I stand by my opinion of your political leanings. It is just my opinion though.

Besides, what possible sense would it make for me (if I was a right-winger) to support Tulsi Gabbard for president when she is an anti-war left wing progressive?

For the same reason a number of right-wingers are touting Gabbard right now while attacking the rest of the Democratic field. You act like you are the only one doing this. Goodness, just look at Drudge and Breitbart, the sites you linked too.

 

[aix_xpert]

I'm sorry but I don't believe this is true Ponca. Maybe you believe this to be true, but I have seen very little evidence of it in your posts on this board. You are much more inclined and embracing of the right than you are the left.

No offense but if you think this then you aren't paying attention. Ponca is about pure capitalism. The reason you think that he leans more right than left is simply because every idea the left has is about government taking control of something, whether thats the energy industry, the insurance industry, the pharmacuetical industry, etc. None of those ideas are going to fit a pure capitalist like Ponca. In effect, what you are seeing is the shift from the left meaning liberal to the left meaning socialist. I miss the days when left meant "sex, drugs, and freedom". Now its become equal outcomes for all.

 

[AC_Exotic]

Wow, are you seriously trying to claim Warren and Sanders are part of the establishment and that is how they are seen by Americans? Maybe a case could be made that Warren has establishment ties, but I've never heard the claim that Sanders is establishment and responsible for the state of things lol.

And Phyillis in Peoria knows this. That is why she just sent $10 to Sanders' campaign.

Only if Phyllis from Peoria is a dirty Commie.

 

[CBradSmith]

If you can't see how Trump is already in serious trouble when it comes to 2020, then you are the one embracing a delusion.

This takes some serious negligence of investigation on your part.

Will have a very good ground game this go round (didnt in 2016)

Amassing a huge warchest.

Your game is to try to speak something into existence. Well, sorry, your flat wrong. Trump's in a MUCH stronger position this next go around.

 

[CBradSmith]

No offense but if you think this then you aren't paying attention. Ponca is about pure capitalism. The reason you think that he leans more right than left is simply because every idea the left has is about government taking control of something, whether thats the energy industry, the insurance industry, the pharmacuetical industry, etc. None of those ideas are going to fit a pure capitalist like Ponca. In effect, what you are seeing is the shift from the left meaning liberal to the left meaning socialist. I miss the days when left meant "sex, drugs, and freedom". Now its become equal outcomes for all.

My_2cents is over promising by a cent and a half.

Long on words, short on substance. Ignores basic facts.

 

[my_2cents]

Typing from my phone, yes meant country. The GND estimated costs would be 8 - 12 Trillion dollars in just the first 10 years including just the energy and environmental portions without even looking at the more social justice/job related initiates which would be closer to $50 Trillion over it's lifetime.

While there are different approaches to a GND, generally speaking, it would be paid for by creating new revenue sources (passing a carbon tax, a tax on earnings above the 10 million mark, etc.). The good thing about a carbon tax too is that it both raises money for the transition and also helps create the change we are seeking in our energy policy. Savings also will play a huge role, for example, shifting consumer subsidies for fossil fuels and producer subsidies for coal costs to covering GND's expenditures. And once again, this will only accelerate the transition. There is also the potential savings that will come when we see a drop in emissions that are hard to calculate at this time (and other areas as well). Then of course, the new jobs that are going to be created. And so on.

Kamala's Medicare For All proposal is again disingenious with how they explain paying for it by tax increases on Wall St, it would only generate close to $2 Trillion in increased tax revenue.

For reference, Bernie's Medicare for All proposal would be somewhere near $30 Trillion.

Yep, and it is all paid for, in either version of the plan. They both take different paths on how to pay for it (see each individual plan for the details), but the increase of revenue and savings are laid out for anyone to see. The key question IMO is which plan or path towards a single payer system will be most effective in driving down health care costs.

This is pie in the sky ideas that would wreck our very way of life.

I feel sorry for naysayers. Hardly any vision and just a bunch of it can't be dones.

Warren has the best response for them...

 

[my_2cents]

This takes some serious negligence of investigation on your part.

I know Brad, you told me the same thing back in 2018 when you first predicted a huge red wave coming and then as we got closer to the election, that the GOP was going to keep the House.

I see you still haven't learned your lesson.

Trump's in a MUCH stronger position this next go around.

No he isn't. His overall support has decreased and he has lost support among Independents. On average, around 54% of Americans say they will definitely not vote for him in 2020. His approval ratings remain around 42% even though he touts a strong economy. All of this spells trouble for Trump, but hey, you keep ignoring the facts all you want Brad.

Trump's only hope in 2020 is that his hardcore supporters will show up to vote along with new far-right voters who didn't come out in 2016 in the key swing states (which explains some of his current racist comments). He also has to hope for either an unenthusiastic Democratic base (Democrats sitting out again) or a third party candidate to split the anti-Trump vote.

 

[my_2cents]

No offense but if you think this then you aren't paying attention. Ponca is about pure capitalism.

I agree. And again, I stand by my opinion regarding Ponca's political leanings.

 

[iasooner1]

They don't bake those biscuits or boil lobsters in electric fired stoves/ovens; 'carbon free' won't play in USA or anywhere else in this world for Gore's sake until everything is fusion powered

 

[CBradSmith]

I know Brad, you told me the same thing back in 2018 when you first predicted a huge red wave coming and then as we got closer to the election, that the GOP was going to keep the House.

I see you still haven't learned your lesson.



No he isn't. His overall support has decreased and he has lost support among Independents. On average, around 54% of Americans say they will definitely not vote for him in 2020. His approval ratings remain around 42% even though he touts a strong economy. All of this spells trouble for Trump, but hey, you keep ignoring the facts all you want Brad.

Trump's only hope in 2020 is that his hardcore supporters will show up to vote along with new far-right voters who didn't come out in 2016 in the key swing states (which explains some of his current racist comments). He also has to hope for either an unenthusiastic Democratic base (Democrats sitting out again) or a third party candidate to split the anti-Trump vote.

You misrepresent reality on the reg, son. And use too many words doing it. Not that bright.

 

[my_2cents]

You misrepresent reality on the reg, son.

I haven't misrepresented anything and you know it.

You were wrong about 2018 and if you keep denying the current political reality, you are going to be wrong about 2020 too.

 

[N. Pappagiorgio]

and you know it.

Very familiar phrase.

 

[iasooner1]

And if you believe a single word coming out of Warren or Sanders pie holes you are a twit AND an idiot. I understand she actually hails from Norman so that's her only redeeming quality.

 

[OSU_Orlando]

While there are different approaches to a GND, generally speaking, it would be paid for by creating new revenue sources (passing a carbon tax, a tax on earnings above the 10 million mark, etc.). The good thing about a carbon tax too is that it both raises money for the transition and also helps create the change we are seeking in our energy policy. Savings also will play a huge role, for example, shifting consumer subsidies for fossil fuels and producer subsidies for coal costs to covering GND's expenditures. And once again, this will only accelerate the transition. There is also the potential savings that will come when we see a drop in emissions that are hard to calculate at this time (and other areas as well). Then of course, the new jobs that are going to be created. And so on.



Yep, and it is all paid for, in either version of the plan. They both take different paths on how to pay for it (see each individual plan for the details), but the increase of revenue and savings are laid out for anyone to see. The key question IMO is which plan or path towards a single payer system will be most effective in driving down health care costs.



I feel sorry for naysayers. Hardly any vision and just a bunch of it can't be dones.

Warren has the best response for them...

View embedded media

Let me ask you, what would you set the tax rate for those earning $10 million or more? 80%? 90%? Do you believe those citizens will stay in the country?

Just these two plans would obliterate our budget, exponentially with massive tax increases. Slowing down job creation in the private sector and those becoming more dependent on the government. No thank you.

 

[CBradSmith]

I haven't misrepresented anything and you know it.

You were wrong about 2018 and if you keep denying the current political reality, you are going to be wrong about 2020 too.

Oh I know it huh? Good one.

Not bright at all. More like My_WoodenNickel

 

[CBradSmith]

Very familiar phrase.

Reminiscent of someone boasting about a 26 ACT score.

That's nice.

 

[my_2cents]

Let me ask you, what would you set the tax rate for those earning $10 million or more? 80%? 90%? Do you believe those citizens will stay in the country?

I think 70% on earned income in excess of $10 million is about right. That is where the top marginal tax rates were in the 1950s/1960s (actually they ranged as high as 92%) and we still maintained strong economic growth. This of course would effect around 16,000 Americans, or 0.05% of all American households (based on the last data I've seen).

And yes, I think they would stay in this country.

Just these two plans would obliterate our budget, exponentially with massive tax increases. Slowing down job creation in the private sector and those becoming more dependent on the government. No thank you.

More Republican fearmongering. When ever progress is proposed or made, one can always count on reactionaries to claim doomsday is right around the corner.

I've shown you how this won't be the case. It you want to keep embracing fear, so be it.

 

[100TonsofOrangeFury]

Don't conflate Trump and America together. One can strongly oppose Trump and what he stands for without hating America. Trump isn't America and America isn't Trump.

And right now, a majority of Americans oppose Trump but have a great love America. If you can't see how Trump is already in serious trouble when it comes to 2020, then you are the one embracing a delusion.

The only comments I hear about America from those drones on stage trying to out-left each other is how awful its institutions are. Maybe they do love some esoteric vision of a socialist Amerika, but clearly they hate the current closed border, white privileged, fossil fueled, reparations-owing version. They're dying to throw various business executives in jail for running their companies in a way the candidates don't approve of.

Watch Bernie and Warren on mute, they're some very angry, dissatisfied with America politicians.

 

[aix_xpert]

Watch Bernie and Warren on mute, they're some very angry, dissatisfied with America politicians.

What's funny is that both have been in Congress long enough to be considered part of what got us to what they hate.

 

[my_2cents]

The only comments I hear about America from those drones on stage trying to out-left each other is how awful its institutions are.

No, what you hear is the change they want to see take place. They never say they hate America though. They simply want to help all Americans and move America forward. And that is very American.

btw, regarding angry, many Americans see Trump as the angry politician who consistently attacks everything that has made this country great. Not to mention his angry and racist attacks on almost anyone who disagrees with his narrow-minded worldview.

 

[my_2cents]

What's funny is that both have been in Congress long enough to be considered part of what got us to what they hate.

Another establishment claim leveled at Sanders and Warren lol.

Some of you guys are freaking hilarious!

 

[aix_xpert]

Another establishment claim leveled at Sanders and Warren lol.

Some of you guys are freaking hilarious!

What's the definition of establishment? Warren started in Washington working on the TARP bailout 11 years ago, and Sanders has been in Washington since 1991 (28 years). Hard not to call a 28 year politician anything but establishment.

 

[100TonsofOrangeFury]

No, what you hear is the change they want to see take place. They never say they hate America though. They simply want to help all Americans and move America forward. And that is very American.

btw, regarding angry, many Americans see Trump as the angry politician who consistently attacks everything that has made this country great. Not to mention his angry and racist attacks on almost anyone who disagrees with his narrow-minded worldview.

I agree about Trump, he often seems very angry if you allow yourself to listen to only the soundbites that the MSM edits and replays to further their obvious agenda.

I also agree about the Dims not saying they hate America proper, they just hate most of its component pieces, institutions, and its non-compliant racist majority population.

Honest question, are you either poor or guilty about your success through some unearned privilege?

 

[CBradSmith]

No, what you hear is the change they want to see take place. They never say they hate America though. They simply want to help all Americans and move America forward. And that is very American.

btw, regarding angry, many Americans see Trump as the angry politician who consistently attacks everything that has made this country great. Not to mention his angry and racist attacks on almost anyone who disagrees with his narrow-minded worldview.

Parsing hairs.

They hate America in it's current form.

They want America to be more like a Socialist country.

Not bright.

 

[my_2cents]

I agree about Trump, he often seems very angry if you allow yourself to listen to only the soundbites that the MSM edits and replays to further their obvious agenda.

Ah yes, blame the MSM. Of course one could engage in a similar blame defense of an angry claim leveled at Sanders and Warren too, but I doubt we will see you do that any time soon.

Trump does a great job of showing his hate and anger on a regular basis. He needs very little help from the MSM.

and its non-compliant racist majority population.

I agree they don't like racists. I don't think though they would assert that a majority of Americans are racist just like they would not assert there has ever been a majority of Americans who support Trump. And they would be right on that.

Honest question, are you either poor or guilty about your success through some unearned privilege?

Please clarify what you are asking a little better and I'll be more than glad to answer.

 

[my_2cents]

They hate America in it's current form.

Did Trump hate America in its current form in 2016 when he advocated for his version of change and "make America great again?" Did Trump hate America in his 2017 inauguration speech when he spoke of "this American carnage" ending?

 

[100TonsofOrangeFury]

I'd say that Trump is sometimes angry. I'd say that Sanders and Warren are ALWAYS angry. And I don't need to parse anything, just watch every second of their debate time. Their whole schtick is righteous anger. Over the state of things that they helped create in America from their pulpits in Washington.

The irony is clearly lost on them. And you.

As far as what any of them believe, it's hard to say because they're so disingenuous and blatantly pandering to the ill-informed. They drop race and racism like others take breaths. Clearly they pretend to believe that race is a HUGE issue in America. Or is it that they don't, but stand to gain by promoting that belief?

 

[AC_Exotic]

Did Trump hate America in its current form in 2016 when he advocated for his version of change and "make America great again?" Did Trump hate America in his 2017 inauguration speech when he spoke of "this American carnage" ending?

 

[OSU_Orlando]

I think 70% on earned income in excess of $10 million is about right. That is where the top marginal tax rates were in the 1950s/1960s (actually they ranged as high as 92%) and we still maintained strong economic growth. This of course would effect around 16,000 Americans, or 0.05% of all American households (based on the last data I've seen).

And yes, I think they would stay in this country.



More Republican fearmongering. When ever progress is proposed or made, one can always count on reactionaries to claim doomsday is right around the corner.

I've shown you how this won't be the case. It you want to keep embracing fear, so be it.

When you have limited monetary resources that isn’t fear mongering, it’s being realistic. You are talking about policies that are in excess of $50 Trillion dollars and that doesn’t include any other social programs and defense spending. You don’t have the money, period.

 

[CBradSmith]

Did Trump hate America in its current form in 2016 when he advocated for his version of change and "make America great again?" Did Trump hate America in his 2017 inauguration speech when he spoke of "this American carnage" ending?

He loved America so much that he took an enormous pay cut.

 

[my_2cents]

I'd say that Trump is sometimes angry.

lol, see what I did there? I bet you don't.

Get use to it. Going to be a lot of this come the general election of 2020. Republicans have no clue how they have tied their own hands politically. Makes a Democrat smile in anticipation.

Over the state of things that they helped create in America from their pulpits in Washington.

And I truly hope that if Sanders or Warren is the nominee, the incumbent Trump campaign is stupid enough to make a claim like this. It will give Warren, and especially Sanders, ample opportunity to remind Americans how often they disagreed with the establishment and were proven right.

Clearly they pretend to believe that race is a HUGE issue in America.

Race is a HUGE issue in America. Even Trump understands that. Why do you think he engages on it so often?

 

[CBradSmith]

lol, see what I did there? I bet you don't.

Get use to it. Going to be a lot of this come the general election of 2020. Republicans have no clue how they have tied their own hands.



And I truly hope that if Sanders or Warren is the nominee, the incumbant Trump campaign is stupid enough to make a claim like this. It will Warren, and especially Sanders, ample opportunity to remind Americans how often they disagreed with the establishment and were proven right.



Race is a HUGE issue in America. Even Trump understands that. Why do you think he engages on it so often?

I repeat, don't snort your Advocare.

 

[my_2cents]

When you have limited monetary resources that isn’t fear mongering, it’s being realistic.

No it isn't realistic when you completely ignore the explaination of how these programs will be paid for.

All you are doing is yelling a number and then claiming doomsday. That is how a reactionary acts. It isn't realistic nor is it even appealing.

 

[my_2cents]

He loved America so much that he took an enormous pay cut.

lol, nice nonanswer. It is classic to watch the maga crowd claim those who advocate for change are unAmerican. What makes it even more hilarious is that one wonders if they even recognize their own hypocrisy.

btw, Trump's tax cut to himself made up for any pay cut he took.