National emergency

[Syskatine]

Wait...

So you are arguing against my concession that it is indeed lower in Texas while ignoring my evidence that the overall numbers are skewed to begin with?

Interesting strategy. I didn’t make the numbers up. Keep looking.

No, I'm trying to get a set of facts and figure out who and what to believe about the first, basic data point I looked at, nothing more. Trying to compare apples to apples and see who's full of shit, I don't know who to trust between the CATO institute and your cut and paste. Facts precede advocacy, right?

Your cut and paste cited a statistic, apparently from the CBO article, that seems at first blush to be out of sync with the Cato's arithmetic and when I look at the CBO article, that math that was represented in the cut and paste wasn't in the CBO article.

I'm hardly a fan of Cato Institute. I don't know who to believe. Wharry's been raising hell about this forever and he hasn't bothered to look at the basic numbers about whether these people are disproportionately criminal. I see his uninformed response, so I challenge you guys. You produce facts, they're out of sync with another set of facts, and your facts aren't supported by the cite for them. That's all I'm saying. I know exactly shit about immigration crime, this is my maiden inquiry into this talking point.

I didn't see that statistic or numbers that support that statistic in the CBO article. If I missed it, show me where it is. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Rdcldad]

A plus on the forest gump

couple more you’ll have yourself a cocktail

 

[MegaPoke]

No, I'm trying to get a set of facts and figure out who and what to believe about the first, basic data point I looked at, nothing more. Trying to compare apples to apples and see who's full of shit, I don't know who to trust between the CATO institute and your cut and paste. Facts precede advocacy, right?

Your cut and paste cited a statistic, apparently from the CBO article, that seems at first blush to be out of sync with the Cato's arithmetic and when I look at the CBO article, that math that was represented in the cut and paste wasn't in the CBO article.

I'm hardly a fan of Cato Institute. I don't know who to believe. Wharry's been raising hell about this forever and he hasn't bothered to look at the basic numbers about whether these people are disproportionately criminal. I see his uninformed response, so I challenge you guys. You produce facts, they're out of sync with another set of facts, and your facts aren't supported by the cite for them. That's all I'm saying. I know exactly shit about immigration crime, this is my maiden inquiry into this talking point.

I didn't see that statistic or numbers that support that statistic in the CBO article. If I missed it, show me where it is. That's all I'm saying.

It’s a cut and paste..... from something I wrote last month. It’s not a cut and paste article and I cited multiple sources.

 

[HighStickHarry]

Jeez Syskatine you need some help today? Is cup getting all of the help’s attention?

 

[Ponca Dan]

Here's a list of those declared and their current status. A large number of them deal with events occurring overseas and are nowhere as significant as an invasion of our country by people breaking our laws or bringing in illegal drugs causing death to our citizens. The primary responsibility of the president is to protect our country and defend us. It doesn't matter whether we are being invaded by an armed army of another country or millions of people from countries not named the United States breaking our laws to enter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_emergencies_in_the_United_States

Thank you for taking the time to look this up and post it! As I said I'm way too stupid to understand the purpose for all the declared emergencies on the list, and I'm way too impatient to have thoroughly read the whole thing; but, to be honest, I don't see anything as trivial as keeping a campaign promise, which, let's be honest with each other, that is all Trump's attempted declaration is.

In a way it's kind of pathetic to watch politicians ply their trade. We observe as Trump does everything in his power to keep his fans fired up over "immigration" until the next election, while simultaneously the Democrats are practicing every dirty trick in their playbook to run out the string of "Russia, Russia, Russia.," hoping the magic will last until 2020.

How some of you are so willing to absolve your team of the rank partisanship and hypocrisy, as if it mysteriously disappears before your eyes, while focused like a laser beam on the same level of rank partisanship and hypocrisy on the other team is a sight to behold. And then sycophants of both teams scratch their heads and wonder at the divisiveness that is tearing this country to shreds. It's almost as if the "leaders" of the two teams want it that way! Say it ain't so, Joe!

 

[Been Jammin]

Thank you for taking the time to look this up and post it! As I said I'm way too stupid to understand the purpose for all the declared emergencies on the list, and I'm way too impatient to have thoroughly read the whole thing; but, to be honest, I don't see anything as trivial as keeping a campaign promise, which, let's be honest with each other, that is all Trump's attempted declaration is.

In a way it's kind of pathetic to watch politicians ply their trade. We observe as Trump does everything in his power to keep his fans fired up over "immigration" until the next election, while simultaneously the Democrats are practicing every dirty trick in their playbook to run out the string of "Russia, Russia, Russia.," hoping the magic will last until 2020.

How some of you are so willing to absolve your team of the rank partisanship and hypocrisy, as if it mysteriously disappears before your eyes, while focused like a laser beam on the same level of rank partisanship and hypocrisy on the other team is a sight to behold. And then sycophants of both teams scratch their heads and wonder at the divisiveness that is tearing this country to shreds. It's almost as if the "leaders" of the to teams want it that way! Say it ain't so, Joe!

Ponca tossing truth bombs today.

 

[HighStickHarry]

Ponca tossing truth bombs today.

No he isn’t. Russia Russia just started with trump. The porous border has been an issue for voters for decades.

 

[imprimis]

I don't see anything as trivial as keeping a campaign promise, which, let's be honest with each other, that is all Trump's attempted declaration is.

Here's where we disagree. Yes, it was a campaign promise but it's also an attempt by the President to stop this invasion of people, drugs and whatever else is illegally coming into this country. I'm a bit more effected by this invasion since I was born and reared within 10 miles of the border in the RGV. I've seen and heard of these people illegally coming across the border my entire life and heard stories of the same dating back to the 1910's. (As stated in another thread weeks ago, I also worked with what is now CBP/ICE and have first hand knowledge of this invasion albeit not recently.) My Mother owns a farm in Mercedes which she leases to a farmer. We are told repeatedly about illegals walking through and camping on her farm destroying crops. I still have numerous relatives who live there who tell similar stories. Aside from how it has an effect on my family---it's a violation of our sovereignty and illegal and is getting worse each year. I'd be for a wall on the northern border if we were being overrun by millions of Canadians illegally entering our country--but the action is on the southern border.

I listened to Kasich, now a CNN analyst, at lunch (captive to the TV in the restaurant) flapping his gums about this issue. What a colossal douchebag. He, like GWB and Jeb and many other GOPer are open border fans. But, did you know his Dad was a postal carrier?

 

[HighStickHarry]

Here's where we disagree. Yes, it was a campaign promise but it's also an attempt by the President to stop this invasion of people, drugs and whatever else is illegally coming into this country. I'm a bit more effected by this invasion since I was born and reared within 10 miles of the border in the RGV. I've seen and heard of these people illegally coming across the border my entire life and heard stories of the same dating back to the 1910's. (As stated in another thread weeks ago, I also worked with what is now CBP/ICE and have first hand knowledge of this invasion albeit not recently.) My Mother owns a farm in Mercedes which she leases to a farmer. We are told repeatedly about illegals walking through and camping on her farm destroying crops. I still have numerous relatives who live there who tell similar stories. Aside from how it has an effect on my family---it's a violation of our sovereignty and illegal and is getting worse each year. I'd be for a wall on the northern border if we were being overrun by millions of Canadians illegally entering our country--but the action is on the southern border.

I listened to Kasich, now a CNN analyst, at lunch (captive to the TV in the restaurant) flapping his gums about this issue. What a colossal douchebag. He, like GWB and Jeb and many other GOPer are open border fans. But, did you know his Dad was a postal carrier?

Watching Ponca dan dismiss this as you being manipulated by trump will be exciting.

 

[Ponca Dan]

No he isn’t. Russia Russia just started with trump. The porous border has been an issue for voters for decades.

Harry, try and look at this rationally. If border security has been an issue for voters for decades (decades?) there would have been a plethora of politicians who would have jumped on it as an issue they could exploit. The fact that no politician before Trump had seriously approached the issue should be evidence enough for you to understand that the public has not considered it to be an emergency. This whole thing is a manufactured crisis designed to frighten people into begging the government (through Trump) to usurp our individual sovereignty. I don't think Trump necessarily looks at it that way, I think he understands he has found a hook that he can use to lure people into following him, voting for him. Unfortunately it will lead to the next president and then the next president claiming authority because of his precedent, until the day comes some generation down the line will look up and realize their liberty has been squandered.

 

[HighStickHarry]

Harry, try and look at this rationally. If border security has been an issue for voters for decades (decades?) there would have been a plethora of politicians who would have jumped on it as an issue they could exploit. The fact that no politician before Trump had seriously approached the issue should be evidence enough for you to understand that the public has not considered it to be an emergency. This whole thing is a manufactured crisis designed to frighten people into begging the government (through Trump) to usurp our individual sovereignty. I don't think Trump necessarily looks at it that way, I think he understands he has found a hook that he can use to lure people into following him, voting for him. Unfortunately it will lead to the next president and then the next president claiming authority because of his precedent, until the day comes some generation down the line will look up and realize their liberty has been squandered.

Fake news. Corporate lobbyists who want cheap labor and cheap food prices and in your industry cheap construction workers got to these politicians and made sure the spicket was not turned off. They all ran on it, the tapes of senator obama and Schumer are plain as day. Just because they flaked in order to keep exploiting these people doesn’t mean it was the right thing to do.

 

[07pilt]

It’s tiresome that I had to do this again.

Let's start with the fact that all estimates of crime by illegal immigrants are underestimates for 2 very basic reasons.

1. In America, a convict released from prison has had on average 3.9 prior convictions. Illegal immigrants are departed at the end of their time served or are deported in place of serving any time, and thus have to successfully sneak back in and work extra hard to catch up to the native born American incarceration average.

So you are telling me that illegal immigrants are bad because their degree of difficulty for becoming a multiple offender is higher?

2. Illegal immigrant victims of crimes rarely if ever report those crimes because they don't want to be noticed by law enforcement themselves. Most black crime victims are victimized by blacks. Most white crime victims are victimized by whites. Most illegal immigrant crime victims are victimized by ___________________ (do the math). If no crime is reported, no-one is arrested. It doesn't mean whoever did the crime isn't a criminal. It just means it isn't documented - just like the perp and the victim themselves.

So illegal immigrants aren't as likely to commit crimes against legal US residents?

For some perspective - in this DHS study, you'll see that bewteen 2005 and 2015, 1.5 million illegal immigrants who committed crimes were deported. That is 10x more than the total number of adult illegal aliens in the US prison system in 2015. If deportation wasn't a consequence, how many of those deported do you think would wind up back in US prisons?

Good thing we have a deportation policy.

Look, nobody that I know of is saying that as a whole, illegal immigrants are bad people. I would probably do the same thing if I were one. But the claim that they are better, less criminalistic people than the native population of the US is purposely misleading and wrong. That's not propaganda. It's context.

If the walls purpose is supposed to increase the safety of the typical Americans then the wall proponents should demonstrate conclusively that: Illegal immigrants commit more crimes in the US than the average citizen, that the victims of those crimes are not disproportionately other illegal immigrants and that the wall won't simply filter out the non crime committing immigrants.

 

[07pilt]

Discredit dan bongino first

Discredit huffpo first

 

[07pilt]

So this is where we are at? Protecting America is the same as breathing. Great point post more?

Maybe try to think really hard, and understand the point people are making.

 

[07pilt]

It’s a cut and paste..... from something I wrote last month. It’s not a cut and paste article and I cited multiple sources.

Its from National review and they got it wrong.

 

[MegaPoke]

Its from National review and they got it wrong.

Can you provide a link? I don't read National Review. It's a never-trump neocon rag. I obviously got the data from somewhere, but I did not cut and paste that post.

 

[HighStickHarry]

Maybe try to think really hard, and understand the point people are making.

There is a point in comparing securing our border with breathing?

I’ve exposed you twice in the last few weeks as being nothing outside of your core subjects. I’m not interested in watching you flop around avoiding reality. Just keep with the insults that at least adds to the entertainment aspect.

 

[MegaPoke]

So you are telling me that illegal immigrants are bad because their degree of difficulty for becoming a multiple offender is higher?

No. I'm clearly telling you that the numbers are flawed because illegals get removed from what would be the normal recidivism rate. It's really pretty obvious. I'm not making a claim of whether they are "bad" or not. Just pointing out that there is a pretty big contextual factor being purposely ignored by people who absolutely ARE saying illegal immigrants are better than native born Americans.

So illegal immigrants aren't as likely to commit crimes against legal US residents?

No. I'm clearly telling you that illegal immigrant crime victims are less likely to report crimes to the police because they themselves are federal criminals facing deportation, and that most crime victims are victimized by people in their own ethnic community. Again, it's pretty obvious.

 

[SMemmett]

It’s a treat watching HighStickHannity and MAGApoke getting owned lately lol.

toondaddy is a combination of words I wish I hadn't been exposed to.

 

[SMemmett]

Shit happens

Indeed it do.

 

[HighStickHarry]

Don’t worry...the powers-that-be will ban this name in short order...but I ain’t never gonna stop

Of course you arent. Schizophrenia doesn’t just go away.

I bet highstickhannity had you in stitches on your walk home.

 

[07pilt]

Can you provide a link? I don't read National Review. It's a never-trump neocon rag. I obviously got the data from somewhere, but I did not cut and paste that post.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/crime-illegal-immigration/
Not a cut and paste, but thats where the data is from.

 

[07pilt]

There is a point in comparing securing our border with breathing?

I’ve exposed you twice in the last few weeks as being nothing outside of your core subjects. I’m not interested in watching you flop around avoiding reality. Just keep with the insults that at least adds to the entertainment aspect.

Yes Harry. Think hard.

 

[Rdcldad]

I listened to Kasich, now a CNN analyst, at lunch (captive to the TV in the restaurant) flapping his gums about this issue. What a colossal douchebag. He, like GWB and Jeb and many other GOPer are open border fans. But, did you know his Dad was a postal carrier?

i listened as well for same reasons

kasich is a very punchable grade A bitch

 

[07pilt]

No. I'm clearly telling you that the numbers are flawed because illegals get removed from what would be the normal recidivism rate. It's really pretty obvious. I'm not making a claim of whether they are "bad" or not. Just pointing out that there is a pretty big contextual factor being purposely ignored by people who absolutely ARE saying illegal immigrants are better than native born Americans.

Doesnt' the fact that they can only be a criminal once before being deported make them better, in terms of public safety than a native born American?

No. I'm clearly telling you that illegal immigrant crime victims are less likely to report crimes to the police because they themselves are federal criminals facing deportation, and that most crime victims are victimized by people in their own ethnic community. Again, it's pretty obvious.

Seems like we shouldn't be worried about those crimes since they don't affect Americans.

 

[MegaPoke]

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/crime-illegal-immigration/
Not a cut and paste, but thats where the data is from.

Regardless, you haven't proved any of it wrong.

 

[Syskatine]

Regardless, you haven't proved any of it wrong.

Well the Cato numbers are sure different at first glance, and the source didn't even address the claimed fact that cited to it.

 

[MegaPoke]

Doesnt' the fact that they can only be a criminal once before being deported make them better, in terms of public safety than a native born American?

The inferred point is that (illegal) immigrants are by and large less criminally active than native born Americans. And that point is sadly, bullshit.

Seems like we shouldn't be worried about those crimes since they don't affect Americans.

I am not worried about those crimes so much as I am pointing out they are underreported, and thus, illegal aliens aren't inherently better people than native born Americans.

 

[Syskatine]

Regardless, you haven't proved any of it wrong.

And if there's credible information let's hear it. I'm not like enthused about crime, it should be a simple point to make, and the right wing Cato institute pretty obviously debunked that unsourced, pretty inflated Texas number and the CATO numbers seem well supported and cited. I dont like Cato but if they have a verifiable fact, I mean... Don't refer me to something out there last month, tell me what I'm missing there. It's all in black and white in this thread.

 

[MegaPoke]

Well the Cato numbers are sure different at first glance, and the source didn't even address the claimed fact that cited to it.

OK. But the Cato numbers don't address the deportation or lack of criminal complaints being reported for fear of same.

 

[MegaPoke]

And if there's credible information let's hear it. I'm not like enthused about crime, it should be a simple point to make, and the right wing Cato institute pretty obviously debunked that unsourced, pretty inflated Texas number and the CATO numbers seem well supported and cited. I dont like Cato but if they have a verifiable fact, I mean... Don't refer me to something out there last month, tell me what I'm missing there. It's all in black and white in this thread.

I honestly don't give a shit if you believe people who by definition are already federal fugitives are less likely to be a criminal than your neighbors who were born here, but you are wrong. It's weird that it even needs to be explained to you.

 

[07pilt]

Regardless, you haven't proved any of it wrong.

It's an apples to oranges comparison, subject to differences in crime definitions and methodologies. For instance for the illegal immigration statistics, attempted murder is counted as homicide, while it isn't for the legal resident statistics. It also relies on some pretty sketchy population stats.

 

[MegaPoke]

It's an apples to oranges comparison, subject to differences in crime definitions and methodologies.

No shit. Thats exactly what I've been saying.

 

[07pilt]

The inferred point is that (illegal) immigrants are by and large less criminally active than native born Americans. And that point is sadly, bullshit.



I am not worried about those crimes so much as I am pointing out they are underreported, and thus, illegal aliens aren't inherently better people than native born Americans.

I think you are missing the point entirely. The argument isn't that we shouldn't build a wall because illegal immigrants are inherently pure at heart. The argument is that we shouldn't build the wall because it doesn't make people safer.

 

[07pilt]

No shit. Thats exactly what I've been saying.

You have been saying your stats are bad this whole time?

 

[MegaPoke]

You have been saying your stats are bad this whole time?

Pretty sure it's clear what I said.

 

[MegaPoke]

I think you are missing the point entirely. The argument isn't that we shouldn't build a wall because illegal immigrants are inherently pure at heart. The argument is that we shouldn't build the wall because it doesn't make people safer.

Never at any point in this conversation did my dialogue revolve around the wall. I was addressing the false narrative that illegal immigrants are less likely to be criminals than American citizens.

 

[Ponca Dan]

The inferred point is that (illegal) immigrants are by and large less criminally active than native born Americans. And that point is sadly, bullshit.



I am not worried about those crimes so much as I am pointing out they are underreported, and thus, illegal aliens aren't inherently better people than native born Americans.

.


No one is suggesting that illegal immigrants are inherently better than American citizens. At least I’m not. But I would ask you to consider that people who are here illegally might be more prone to keep a low profile out of concern they might get caught and sent back. I’ve never asked any Mexican/Guatemalan/Honduran immigrants I work around on construction job sites whether they are here legally or illegally. But I do notice that very often the boss, usually a Mexican who most certainly is here legally will drive to the job with his automobile/pickup/van full of his employees. I have always assumed he gives them a ride to avoid any possibility they would be in an accident or get pulled over for a traffic violation, thus keeping them out of harm’s way.

I admit my experience is purely anecdotal, but I think it underscores a point that illegals may be less apt to commit a crime for the reason described above.

 

[MegaPoke]

No one is suggesting that illegal immigrants are inherently better than American citizens.

Let me stop you right there. Yes there are people suggesting exactly that, and I never said you were.

 

[Syskatine]

OK. But the Cato numbers don't address the deportation or lack of criminal complaints being reported for fear of same.

I dunno, I can take one data point at a time and I took 15 minutes to isolate and source just one obvious metric (per capita homicide rate of the illegals vs natives) used by MAGA repeatedly and the proof for that one talking point, reduced to one big state, appears to be a fictional number and Cato's disproves it with a credible source. You posted that metric after Pilt pushed back.

You'll note I'm not crowing or "every time"ing this, this is being totally open minded. Trying anyhow.

And the illegals I know are model people. If you know them, its hard to reduce those flesh and blood people to which side of a fvxking line they're born on. It's not American. If they have the lead in their ass to gtfo of a bad place and walk across Mexico I'd rather share a country with them than xenophobic liars.

I don't accept at face value that their crimes are under reported, either. The idea of under-reporting illegal alien crime contemplates that the general public is less alarmed if the crime is committed by a foreigner? There's a ton of deferred and suspended sentences white trash gets that illegals probably dont get, too. Does this metric of reported crimes include those? Deferred sentences get expunged, at least in ok (I think. JD? Elsewhere too?) So an elected DA is gonna take it easy on an illegal that hurts an innocent constituent? Nope.

If they're disproportionately violent it should be easy to prove.