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Clinton 2020

At least it isn't socialism
Would it help if you heard it from WaPo?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...d9bbdc-945c-11e9-b58a-a6a9afaa0e3e_story.html

If they have established anything, it’s not socialism, or even the dominance of a benevolent state, but responsible governance. They have achieved a clear division of labor, between government (which arguably has a comparative advantage in health insurance and education) and the private sector (which is better at producing and distributing most other goods and services).

What the Nordic countries don’t do is pretend that society can have a strong and efficient social safety net without a big, mandatory financial contribution from the middle class. Nor do they deal punitively with the private sector, upon whose productivity the entire system ultimately depends.


American socialists’ enthusiasm for the northern European systems may be sincere. We shall see whether it can withstand full and accurate information about how those systems actually work.


https://www.heartland.org/news-opinion/news/are-norway-and-sweden-socialist-countries

According to the latest edition of Economic Freedom in the World, Norway is the #25 country in the world and Sweden #43, out of 162; with the United States #6, and Singapore and Hong Kong first and second.

Germany describes its amalgam of free-markets and social insurance as the “social market.” Chile, with its privatization of Social Security, could be said to have moved completely to Mach 1 capitalism. The United States, somewhat uniquely among capitalist countries, practices extensive credit-socialism, and has a national government as well as many home-owners and students deeply in debt. There are positive and negative things to say about many real-world capitalist countries; but nobody - not even Ocasio-Cortez - wants to be associated with real-world socialist countries.

https://www.barrons.com/articles/the-myth-of-nordic-socialism-51554296401

Although there are areas—especially in taxes and labor market regulation—where socialist elements still exist in the Nordics, the region is by no means socialist today. In fact, according to the Heritage Foundation’s index of economic freedom, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Iceland, and Denmark rank among the 30 most capitalist countries in the world.

In 1960, for every 100 “market-financed” Swedes (i.e. those who derived their income predominantly from private enterprise), there were 38 who were “tax-financed” (i.e. dependent on the public sector for their income, whether as civil servants or as recipients of payments from the state). Thirty years later, that number had risen to 151—in other words, there were significantly more people living off of the state than paying into the system. This reflects Sweden’s move away from a capitalist free-market economy to a socialist model.

This damaged the Swedish economy and resulted in prominent entrepreneurs leaving the country in frustration. IKEA founder Ingvar Kamprad, for example, moved to Denmark in 1974 and later to Switzerland. The economic situation in Sweden deteriorated as a direct result of extreme labor market regulation and the constant expansion of the role of the state, which led to massive dissatisfaction among the population.

Pushback against these socialist ideas gathered momentum, and by the 1990s there was a comprehensive counter-movement that—without fundamentally questioning the Swedish model of high taxes and comprehensive welfare benefits—nevertheless eliminated many of its excesses. A major tax reform in 1990/91 slashed corporate taxes from 57% to 30%. Income from shares was exempted from taxation, while capital gains from shares were taxed at only 12.5%.

https://fee.org/articles/is-norway-a-role-model-for-democratic-socialism/

But it’s nonsensical to argue that oil-rich Norway somehow provides evidence for the overall notion of democratic socialism. It’s sort of like looking at data for Kuwait and asserting that the best economic system is hereditary sheikdom.
 
Would it help if you heard it from WaPo?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...d9bbdc-945c-11e9-b58a-a6a9afaa0e3e_story.html

If they have established anything, it’s not socialism, or even the dominance of a benevolent state, but responsible governance. They have achieved a clear division of labor, between government (which arguably has a comparative advantage in health insurance and education) and the private sector (which is better at producing and distributing most other goods and services).

What the Nordic countries don’t do is pretend that society can have a strong and efficient social safety net without a big, mandatory financial contribution from the middle class. Nor do they deal punitively with the private sector, upon whose productivity the entire system ultimately depends.


American socialists’ enthusiasm for the northern European systems may be sincere. We shall see whether it can withstand full and accurate information about how those systems actually work.


https://www.heartland.org/news-opinion/news/are-norway-and-sweden-socialist-countries

According to the latest edition of Economic Freedom in the World, Norway is the #25 country in the world and Sweden #43, out of 162; with the United States #6, and Singapore and Hong Kong first and second.

Germany describes its amalgam of free-markets and social insurance as the “social market.” Chile, with its privatization of Social Security, could be said to have moved completely to Mach 1 capitalism. The United States, somewhat uniquely among capitalist countries, practices extensive credit-socialism, and has a national government as well as many home-owners and students deeply in debt. There are positive and negative things to say about many real-world capitalist countries; but nobody - not even Ocasio-Cortez - wants to be associated with real-world socialist countries.

https://www.barrons.com/articles/the-myth-of-nordic-socialism-51554296401

Although there are areas—especially in taxes and labor market regulation—where socialist elements still exist in the Nordics, the region is by no means socialist today. In fact, according to the Heritage Foundation’s index of economic freedom, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Iceland, and Denmark rank among the 30 most capitalist countries in the world.

In 1960, for every 100 “market-financed” Swedes (i.e. those who derived their income predominantly from private enterprise), there were 38 who were “tax-financed” (i.e. dependent on the public sector for their income, whether as civil servants or as recipients of payments from the state). Thirty years later, that number had risen to 151—in other words, there were significantly more people living off of the state than paying into the system. This reflects Sweden’s move away from a capitalist free-market economy to a socialist model.

This damaged the Swedish economy and resulted in prominent entrepreneurs leaving the country in frustration. IKEA founder Ingvar Kamprad, for example, moved to Denmark in 1974 and later to Switzerland. The economic situation in Sweden deteriorated as a direct result of extreme labor market regulation and the constant expansion of the role of the state, which led to massive dissatisfaction among the population.

Pushback against these socialist ideas gathered momentum, and by the 1990s there was a comprehensive counter-movement that—without fundamentally questioning the Swedish model of high taxes and comprehensive welfare benefits—nevertheless eliminated many of its excesses. A major tax reform in 1990/91 slashed corporate taxes from 57% to 30%. Income from shares was exempted from taxation, while capital gains from shares were taxed at only 12.5%.

https://fee.org/articles/is-norway-a-role-model-for-democratic-socialism/

But it’s nonsensical to argue that oil-rich Norway somehow provides evidence for the overall notion of democratic socialism. It’s sort of like looking at data for Kuwait and asserting that the best economic system is hereditary sheikdom.

Your comment went right over his head @07pilt .

This is hilarious!
 
Would it help if you heard it from WaPo?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...d9bbdc-945c-11e9-b58a-a6a9afaa0e3e_story.html

If they have established anything, it’s not socialism, or even the dominance of a benevolent state, but responsible governance. They have achieved a clear division of labor, between government (which arguably has a comparative advantage in health insurance and education) and the private sector (which is better at producing and distributing most other goods and services).

What the Nordic countries don’t do is pretend that society can have a strong and efficient social safety net without a big, mandatory financial contribution from the middle class. Nor do they deal punitively with the private sector, upon whose productivity the entire system ultimately depends.


American socialists’ enthusiasm for the northern European systems may be sincere. We shall see whether it can withstand full and accurate information about how those systems actually work.


https://www.heartland.org/news-opinion/news/are-norway-and-sweden-socialist-countries

According to the latest edition of Economic Freedom in the World, Norway is the #25 country in the world and Sweden #43, out of 162; with the United States #6, and Singapore and Hong Kong first and second.

Germany describes its amalgam of free-markets and social insurance as the “social market.” Chile, with its privatization of Social Security, could be said to have moved completely to Mach 1 capitalism. The United States, somewhat uniquely among capitalist countries, practices extensive credit-socialism, and has a national government as well as many home-owners and students deeply in debt. There are positive and negative things to say about many real-world capitalist countries; but nobody - not even Ocasio-Cortez - wants to be associated with real-world socialist countries.

https://www.barrons.com/articles/the-myth-of-nordic-socialism-51554296401

Although there are areas—especially in taxes and labor market regulation—where socialist elements still exist in the Nordics, the region is by no means socialist today. In fact, according to the Heritage Foundation’s index of economic freedom, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Iceland, and Denmark rank among the 30 most capitalist countries in the world.

In 1960, for every 100 “market-financed” Swedes (i.e. those who derived their income predominantly from private enterprise), there were 38 who were “tax-financed” (i.e. dependent on the public sector for their income, whether as civil servants or as recipients of payments from the state). Thirty years later, that number had risen to 151—in other words, there were significantly more people living off of the state than paying into the system. This reflects Sweden’s move away from a capitalist free-market economy to a socialist model.

This damaged the Swedish economy and resulted in prominent entrepreneurs leaving the country in frustration. IKEA founder Ingvar Kamprad, for example, moved to Denmark in 1974 and later to Switzerland. The economic situation in Sweden deteriorated as a direct result of extreme labor market regulation and the constant expansion of the role of the state, which led to massive dissatisfaction among the population.

Pushback against these socialist ideas gathered momentum, and by the 1990s there was a comprehensive counter-movement that—without fundamentally questioning the Swedish model of high taxes and comprehensive welfare benefits—nevertheless eliminated many of its excesses. A major tax reform in 1990/91 slashed corporate taxes from 57% to 30%. Income from shares was exempted from taxation, while capital gains from shares were taxed at only 12.5%.

https://fee.org/articles/is-norway-a-role-model-for-democratic-socialism/

But it’s nonsensical to argue that oil-rich Norway somehow provides evidence for the overall notion of democratic socialism. It’s sort of like looking at data for Kuwait and asserting that the best economic system is hereditary sheikdom.
Awesome I say full speed ahead with Nordic style capitalism.
 
Ah, I see you read all of those articles in less than a minute. That's amazing!
I would say the best response to your argument against socialism is contained in the book Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace. Please don't respond back until you have read it all.
 
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I would say the best response to your argument against socialism is contained in the book Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace. Please don't respond back until you have read it all.
Lol. I'll read that as soon as you finish reading all the articles I linked debunking the myth of Nordic socialism.
 
This is you waving the white flag. Thanks for playing.
I am actually waving the red and blue flag of Norwegian capitalism. In fact we need not discuss socialism ever again until we achieve Norwegian levels of capitalism.
234px-Flag_of_Norway.svg.png
 
I am actually waving the red and blue flag of Norwegian capitalism. In fact we need not discuss socialism ever again until we achieve Norwegian levels of capitalism.
234px-Flag_of_Norway.svg.png
Why don't you just move to Norway if you love their economy so much? I think I'll stick with good ole American capitalism.


According to the latest edition of Economic Freedom in the World, Norway is the #25 country in the world and Sweden #43, out of 162; with the United States #6, and Singapore and Hong Kong first and second.
 
Why don't you just move to Norway if you love their economy so much? I think I'll stick with good ole American capitalism.


According to the latest edition of Economic Freedom in the World, Norway is the #25 country in the world and Sweden #43, out of 162; with the United States #6, and Singapore and Hong Kong first and second.
Because as an American citizen it is my duty to strive to increase the greatness of my country and not abandon it for superior economic systems.
 
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@pokenrally you really should retire for the day.

You have had your *** handed to you enough for one day.:D
Delusions are common in psychotic disorders such as schizophrenia. Delusions can also be a feature of brain damage or disorders. Delusions can be accompanied by other psychiatric symptoms or by physical symptoms when these occur related to a medical condition.

Hopefully this helps narrow down what mental illness you have. The smart money is on brain damage.
 
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What type of socialism are you referring to?

Again, I said "be specific."


I’ve been working all day and am only just now seeing the end of this thread.

2Cents, your question is perplexing to say the least. There’s only one type of socialism, so your question seems to betray a lack of understanding. Socialism is an economic theory that calls for government ownership of the means of production.

So perhaps you would be better served if you could define for us what you mean by requesting an example of a specific type of socialism. Maybe you could educate us on how many types of socialism you think there are, and give examples of governments that practice the various types. Once you’ve done that I will feel more comfortable in explaining why your particular types don’t fit the definition, and probably why they don’t produce the results that have been promised before they were put in practice.

Oh, and for your enlightenment here’s a book on socialism you should read if you truly want to understand the nature of socialism and a detailed economic explanation of why socialism fails every time and what are the contradictions of the theory that make it impossible to succeed. You really should read it before you advocate that the US embark down that path.

Amazon product ASIN 0913966630
 
Socialism is an economic theory that calls for government ownership of the means of production.

Eh, that sounds like communism. Socialism doesn't mean the government "owns" the means of production. Socialist countries in this day and age still have private property, it's just regulated, at least the successful ones. You're re-defining the term to make it the most extreme possible.
 
2Cents, your question is perplexing to say the least. There’s only one type of socialism, so your question seems to betray a lack of understanding.

No, there are many types of socialism. Come on Ponca, don't play dumb.
 
Then by all means tell me what they are

Google it! That is how simple it is genuis! :D

btw, I asked for all of you worried about socialism to define what type of socialism is being referenced when the original claim above is given. Still waiting on one of you guys to answer that question lol!
 
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Imagine if someone did the same sloppy, lazy broadside on "capitalism."
The difference I see between advocates of socialism and advocates of capitalism is one of consistency. True advocates of laissez faire capitalism do not point to different countries that practice various degrees of mixed economies and call some of them “capitalist.” What we continually see with advocates of socialism, on the other hand, is a moving of the goalposts. A country is held up as a model of socialism until it starts to fall apart and suddenly it doesn’t practice “real socialism.”
 
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The difference I see between advocates of socialism and advocates of capitalism is one of consistency. True advocates of laissez faire capitalism do not point to different countries that practice various degrees of mixed economies and call some of them “capitalist.” What we continually see with advocates of socialism, on the other hand, is a moving of the goalposts. A country is held up as a model of socialism until it starts to fall apart and suddenly it doesn’t practice “real socialism.”
If you are going to make an entirely new mode of production you are going to break a few eggs (especially if the only places you try it are backwaters)
 
Google it! That is how simple it is genuis! :D

btw, I asked for you guys to define what type of socialism is being referenced when the original claim is given. Still waiting on one of you guys o answer that question lol!
I’m not going to play dodge ball with you as you feint and duck in a desperate attempt to avoid answering the question because you don’t know the answer. You say there are several types of socialism. I say there is one type and only one type, and even defined it for you. You insist there are more. Therefore it becomes incumbent upon you to say what they are (or at least some of the types).

Let’s make it easy for you. Pilt says Norway is socialist. What type of socialism does Norway practice? Mao practiced socialism in China. What type would you call that? Bernie Sanders extolled the virtues of Venezuelan socialism. Is that a third type? How is Cuba’s socialism different from Sweden’s?

I have now pointed to 5 countries that some people say are socialist. What is the unifying characteristic between those five? Can you rate the five from the least socialist to the most socialist?
 
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I’m not going to play dodge ball with you as you feint and duck in a desperate attempt to avoid answering the question because you don’t know the answer.

I'm not playing dodge ball with you but I'm also not going to play your stupid games.

I will though share a link that gives a very general overview just to put your nonsense to rest about there not being different types...

https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/glossary/different-types-of-socialism/

Now, again, would you like to let us know what type of socialism is referenced when you right-wingers says "socialism has never worked?"
 
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I’ve been working all day and am only just now seeing the end of this thread.

2Cents, your question is perplexing to say the least. There’s only one type of socialism, so your question seems to betray a lack of understanding. Socialism is an economic theory that calls for government ownership of the means of production.

So perhaps you would be better served if you could define for us what you mean by requesting an example of a specific type of socialism. Maybe you could educate us on how many types of socialism you think there are, and give examples of governments that practice the various types. Once you’ve done that I will feel more comfortable in explaining why your particular types don’t fit the definition, and probably why they don’t produce the results that have been promised before they were put in practice.

Oh, and for your enlightenment here’s a book on socialism you should read if you truly want to understand the nature of socialism and a detailed economic explanation of why socialism fails every time and what are the contradictions of the theory that make it impossible to succeed. You really should read it before you advocate that the US embark down that path.

Isn't it funny how advocates of socialism have absolutely no idea what socialism is?

This is one of my favorite videos that shows exactly the type of people we're dealing with. At least these kids have an excuse (they're young and dumb), can't say the same for the three ass-clowns in here, at least on the young part.

 
*Loves socialism
































Can't name a single successful socialist country (because they don't exist).

America.

Social security, Medicare, roads, libraries, education. All decried as "socialist.". The daily Oklahoman railed against I-40 as socialist. Raise taxes? GOP yells socialism .
 
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America.

Social security, Medicare, roads, libraries, education. All decried as "socialist.". The daily Oklahoman railed against I-40 as socialist. Raise taxes? GOP yells socialism .

I linked him to an article earlier that discussed this. He refused to read it lol!

Go figure.
 
I'm not playing dodge ball with you but I'm also not going to play your stupid games.

I will though share a link that gives a very general overview just to put your nonsense to rest about there not being different types...

https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/glossary/different-types-of-socialism/

Now, again, would you like to let us know what type of socialism is referenced when you right-wingers says "socialism has never worked?"
OK, I’ll answer your question if you'll answer mine. I say the type of socialism that has never worked - and could never work - is the type where the government owns and/or dictates the means of production. I offer as examples the USSR of Lenin and Stalin, and China under the watchful eye of Mao and our neighbor, Cuba. In less than a generation those socialist countries became economic cesspools, civil libertarian nightmares ruled by a small cadre of elitists led by a mad man. Hell, let’s throw North Korea and even Venezuela into the mix,

Your turn. Define socialism, explain what you consider to be two or three “types of socialism” as you like to put it, and give examples.
 
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