Well, the Ruskies have done it now.....

[my_2cents]

I'm all ears and have an open mind.

🤣🤣

Yeah, right.

Read the posts then. Respond accordingly.

 

[Ponca Dan]

I already have cited our interests in my previous posts on this thread. Are you reading them or are you off in fantasy land thinking all of this has to do with some grand international conspiracy related to the U.S. House election?🤣🤣

I’m thinking you don’t know what are the interests that deserve getting the US locked in a war with Russia but are too cowardly to show your ignorance by admitting it.

 

[my_2cents]

Edit: Let me add one thing about the missile strike in Poland. To this point at least the reports are very careful to call it a Russian-made missile. They are carefully parsing their words. They are not yet calling it a Russian-launched missile. Maybe it was Russian-launched. And if it was but cannot be explained as an accident this very well could be an escalation that gets tens of thousands of American soldiers killed or maimed in quick order.

Yes, there is an investigation occurring. Poland is determining what happened. As they should.

If it wasn't an accident, if Putin deliberately attacked Poland, what do you believe the response should be?

 

[LAY THE WOODY]

Yes, there is an investigation occurring. Poland is determining what happened. As they should.

If it wasn't an accident, if Putin deliberately attacked Poland, what do you believe the response should be?

Why would you throw out "accident?". Make no excuse, it was either deliberate or incompetent. No excuse.

 

[2012Bearcat]

🤣🤣

Yeah, right.

Read the posts then. Respond accordingly.

Read what post? What is it with you leftist, when we ask for you to explain anything you always demand we search for some needle in the haystack. If you can't justify the actions it's not a big deal we can't justify it either.

 

[my_2cents]

I’m thinking you don’t know what are the interests that deserve getting the US locked in a war with Russia but are too cowardly to show your ignorance by admitting it.

Let me be clear, I don't want a war with Russia. No one wants a war with Russia, regardless of the fantasy world you live in. However, Putin's aggression must be confronted and resisted. And if he intentionally attacked Poland (which we don't know yet and I personally doubt he did), there must be a response.

As for the interests, again, read my recent posts on this thread. I've already cited a few.

 

[my_2cents]

Make no excuse, it was either deliberate or incompetent. No excuse.

So, if you think it was intentional, what should our response be?

 

[Ponca Dan]

Yes, there is an investigation occurring. Poland is determining what happened. As they should.

If it wasn't an accident, if Putin deliberately attacked Poland, what do you believe the response should be?

Poland should not be the lead investigator.
If it was intentional I believe the response should be immediate ceasefire while peaceful negotiations ensue to end the conflict before armageddon comes calling.

 

[my_2cents]

Read what post? What is it with you leftist, when we ask for you to explain anything you always demand we search for some needle in the haystack. If you can't justify the actions it's not a big deal we can't justify it either.

Scroll up. Read my posts. I've given a number of interests that are at stake.

And we routinely say this to you because for some reason, you play dumb and want to act like you haven't already been given what you ask for.

 

[Ponca Dan]

Let me be clear, I don't want a war with Russia. No one wants a war with Russia, regardless of the fantasy world you live in. However, Putin's aggression must be confronted and resisted. And if he intentionally attacked Poland (which we don't know yet and I personally doubt he did), there must be a response.

As for the interests, again, read my recent posts on this thread. I've already cited a few.

You make no sense (which is no surprise) you don’t want war but you want a war-like confrontation and resistance. I think we know which one of us lives in a fantasy world, and it ain’t me!

 

[LAY THE WOODY]

So, if you think it was intentional, what should our response be?

How bout another 37 billion$? The plate is in yer lap.

 

[LAY THE WOODY]

Poland should not be the lead investigator.
If it was intentional I believe the response should be immediate ceasefire while peaceful negotiations ensue to end the conflict before armageddon comes calling.

Poland might just send some shit back.

 

[my_2cents]

Poland should not be the lead investigator.

Why?

If it was intentional I believe the response should be immediate ceasefire while peaceful negotiations ensue to end the conflict before armageddon comes calling.

Dang, you really are an appeaser.

Putin intentionally attacks a NATO member, and you would do nothing and instead immediately call for a ceasefire while proceeding into negotiations where Putin would run circles around you. You would let Putin know that NATO's commitments mean nothing and that he can get away with anything.

 

[Ponca Dan]

Scroll up. Read my posts. I've given a number of interests that are at stake.

And we routinely say this to you because for some reason, you play dumb and want to act like you haven't already been given what you ask for.

Ironic. The person playing dumb accuses the other of playing dumb. You could end this whole thing by just saying what is our strategic interest in Ukraine that causes reason to go to war with a nuclear armed third world country that has much less to lose than we do. You don’t do it because you can’t do it and you’re too stubborn to admit you shot off your mouth in a pique of overly emotional passion.

 

[my_2cents]

You make no sense (which is no surprise) you don’t want war but you want a war-like confrontation and resistance.

Because you confuse wanting war with conducting foreign policy from a position of strength. I make no sense to you because you want to appease Putin, because you believe that will bring Europe and the world "peace." When it wouldn't.

 

[my_2cents]

Ironic. The person playing dumb accuses the other of playing dumb.

🙄

All you had to do was read . . .

This is one of the reasons we and our NATO allies are coming to the defense of Ukraine in the face of Russian aggression. There are others, i.e. strategic partner, European security, neutralizing Putin, etc.

I've never claimed there was a treaty that does exactly what you state but there was the 1994 Budapest Memorandum.

And I firmly believe Putin will do whatever he can (and can get away with) to weaken the NATO alliance, oppose our interests and the interests of our NATO allies, and represents a serious threat to European security and stability. Because of this, he represents a serious threat to us. Having Putin overthrown and/or weakening his ability/power to accomplish his goals is in our national interests and the interests of our allies.

 

[2012Bearcat]

I'm thinking misfire too, if confirmed.

Dan's beef is with the United States government. He could care less what other countries and/or leaders do. He always blames our government, neocons, the military establishment, the secret cabal running everything, etc.

I've essentially given up hope that Putin is a rational actor. My hope is that there are still those around him who are rational actors.

I do believe though our government, along with NATO, has a better feel for all of this than we do currently. I'd love to be a fly on the wall when the President gets his daily intelligence briefings on this situation.

What do you think the response should be?

What do you expect them to say at this point?

Maybe it wasn't them. I agree we should wait for firm confirmation. But I doubt you will even accept such confirmation. Putin says he didn't do it, you will believe him.

How?

And this is exactly what Putin wants you to believe.

It is sad that you have been so easily influenced by Putin's propaganda campaign in this country.

How?

Yes, for you, this is probably right. It has nothing to do with Putin and everything to do with your irrational hate of Biden and the Democrats. You, therefore, are the perfect pawn for Putin's propaganda operation.

If we had a Republican President right now standing up to Putin, you would be singing a different tune.

It's all about partisan politics for you.

If it was about peace for you, you would be strongly opposing Putin's aggression in Ukraine and supporting our NATO allies.


No we aren't.

You are starting to sound like pre-WWII Charles Lindbergh.

What aggression?

Are you claiming that Ukraine, as a sovereign nation, cannot decide for themselves what alliances they enter into without Putin first approving it? Is it aggression for Ukraine to protect itself from an aggressive neighbor?

Poland's foreign ministry is now saying it was a Russian-made missile that fell on the Polish village of Przewodow. Poland is considering invoking Article 4. NATO will hold an emergency meeting on Wednesday.

What if it was an accident though, a misfired missile? Should this not enter into the equation?

If this was intentional, I can fully understand your position.

You thoughts on the likelihood of success such an ultimatum directed at the Russian generals would have?

I agree with this. That is why, at this point, I think a measured response (with perhaps back-channel communication) is probably the best approach.

I disagree fully though with your claim that we shouldn't have "pushed" Putin though. Putin has no one to blame but himself. And if you can't figure out what our (and our allies) interests are as they relate to Putin and Ukraine, either you aren't paying attention or no one is going to be able to convince you otherwise.

Would this have been your position with Hitler too?

Chamberlain thought like you did, and you saw where it got him and his country. Thank goodness there were men like Churchill that understood peace comes through strength. You don't make peace by giving into the demands of men like Putin. This is what you fundamentally fail to understand.

Edited. See post below.

This isn't about Biden or his administration. When you finally can't get past that, maybe you will have something of worth to contribute to this conversation.

Actually, I need to edit my original answer to your question.

I forgot about the 1994 Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances for Ukraine. In this document, the United States, Russia, and Britain committed to respect the sovereignty, independence, and terroritory integrity of Ukraine. It was also agreed upon that the use of force, threats, or economic coercion would not be use against Ukraine. Ukraine agreed to give up nuclear weapons on its territory. Putin's Russia has clearly violated the commitments they made.

And Poland is a NATO ally. That was my point.

Perfect? No.

There is no perfection in the world.


This is one of the reasons we and our NATO allies are coming to the defense of Ukraine in the face of Russian aggression. There are others, i.e. strategic partner, European security, neutralizing Putin, etc.


I've never claimed there was a treaty that does exactly what you state but there was the 1994 Budapest Memorandum.

And I firmly believe Putin will do whatever he can (and can get away with) to weaken the NATO alliance, oppose our interests and the interests of our NATO allies, and represents a serious threat to European security and stability. Because of this, he represents a serious threat to us. Having Putin overthrown and/or weakening his ability/power to accomplish his goals is in our national interests and the interests of our allies.

You always post this and you are always so wrong.

🤣🤣

Again, if you can't figure out what our (and our allies) interests are as they relate to Putin and Ukraine, either you aren't paying attention or no one is going to be able to convince you otherwise.

There have been numerous discussions, including this one, on this board where posters have cited the interests that exist for us and our NATO allies. Pay attention and read. Or go study this yourself a little, apart from only considering pro-Putin propaganda.

I hear you.

The main problem, as I'm sure you know, is that we aren't privy to the intelligence that our President and other world leaders have access to right now. Thus, we often are left with an "I don't know" position. There is, no doubt, so much we don't know (that our leaders do know) that would greatly enhance our ability to game out the potential responses.

Exactly.


Again, I've never stated such an agreement exists.

But so what? Just because there isn't a formal agreement doesn't mean our interests and the interests of our NATO allies aren't at play. Not to mention, as you admitted, Putin violated the Budapest Memorandum.


Sigh.

So everyone is going to lie about the missile, except Putin (since he is the one we should all immediately trust), because Republicans are barely going to take control of the House in the United States? Poland is considering invoking Article 4 because Polish leaders are concerned about a Republican House in the USA?

I already have cited our interests in my previous posts on this thread. Are you reading them or are you off in fantasy land thinking all of this has to do with some grand international conspiracy related to the U.S. House election?🤣🤣

🤣🤣

Yeah, right.

Read the posts then. Respond accordingly.

Yes, there is an investigation occurring. Poland is determining what happened. As they should.

If it wasn't an accident, if Putin deliberately attacked Poland, what do you believe the response should be?

Let me be clear, I don't want a war with Russia. No one wants a war with Russia, regardless of the fantasy world you live in. However, Putin's aggression must be confronted and resisted. And if he intentionally attacked Poland (which we don't know yet and I personally doubt he did), there must be a response.

As for the interests, again, read my recent posts on this thread. I've already cited a few.

So, if you think it was intentional, what should our response be?

Scroll up. Read my posts. I've given a number of interests that are at stake.

And we routinely say this to you because for some reason, you play dumb and want to act like you haven't already been given what you ask for.

Why?


Dang, you really are an appeaser.

Putin intentionally attacks a NATO member, and you would do nothing and instead immediately call for a ceasefire while proceeding into negotiations where Putin would run circles around you. You would let Putin know that NATO's commitments mean nothing and that he can get away with anything.

 

[my_2cents]

How bout another 37 billion$? The plate is in yer lap.

Again, what do you believe should be our response if Putin intentionally attacked a NATO country?

Got any ideas? Or are you just a mocker?

 

[2012Bearcat]

I posted everyone of your posts that you asked me to scroll up to read for what you think is the justification for Obama overthrowing the Ukrainian government, allowing Russian to take over Crimea and pushing Ukrainian entery into NATO which was a red line for Russia. Maybe you would be so kind as to highlight what you see as justification.

 

[LAY THE WOODY]

Again, what do you believe should be our response if Putin intentionally attacked a NATO country?

Got any ideas? Or are you just a mocker?

Again, what's "yer" POTUS gonna do? Besides print more money?

 

[Ponca Dan]

Why?


Dang, you really are an appeaser.

Putin intentionally attacks a NATO member, and you would do nothing and instead immediately call for a ceasefire while proceeding into negotiations where Putin would run circles around you. You would let Putin know that NATO's commitments mean nothing and that he can get away with anything.

Poland should be involved in the investigation but should not be the one making the important investigative decisions. They’ve been harmed and the natural reaction is to strike out at the one you think caused the harm without knowing it was him. Cooler heads should be in charge.

I am not an appeaser, I’m a peacenik. I can see why you would think appeaser, though, recognizing your lust to kill Russians. You give Russian negotiators too much credit, your fear of them is palpable. Russia has made it clear they desperately want out of this mess they’re in, they’ve called for negotiations over and over. Ukraine for the moment, before the anticipated Russian winter offensive, has as much leverage as Russia, probably as much as they’re ever going to have. This war could end quickly if they’f just sit down and talk to each other.

 

[Ponca Dan]

I posted everyone of your posts that you asked me to scroll up to read for what you think is the justification for Obama overthrowing the Ukrainian government, allowing Russian to take over Crimea and pushing Ukrainian entery into NATO which was a red line for Russia. Maybe you would be so kind as to highlight what you see as justification.

That is as bad an ass kicking as this board has ever seen. Well played!

 

[my_2cents]

Poland should be involved in the investigation but should not be the one making the important investigative decisions. They’ve been harmed and the natural reaction is to strike out at the one you think caused the harm without knowing it was him. Cooler heads should be in charge.

You really think Poland would lash out at Russia if they had any suspicion it wasn't Russia?

You literally think Poland wants to go to war with Russia over the outcome of the U.S. House election so much so that they would lash out at Russia even if they had suspicions about the missile attack?

I am not an appeaser, I’m a peacenik. I can see why you would think appeaser, though, recognizing your lust to kill Russians.

No, you are an appeaser. Just be honest with yourself for once. Everyone else sees it. Peacenik.🤣🤣

btw, I have no lust to kill Russians. I'd love to see the Russian people overthrow Putin. Would you?

 

[osu_orangestreak]

Now Biden is saying that it is unlikely the missle came from Russia.

Huh?

 

[LAY THE WOODY]

You really think Poland would lash out at Russia if they had any suspicion it wasn't Russia?

You literally think Poland wants to go to war with Russia over the outcome of the U.S. House election so much so that they would lash out at Russia even if they had suspicions about the missile attack?


No, you are an appeaser. Just be honest with yourself for once. Everyone else sees it. Peacenik.🤣🤣

btw, I have no lust to kill Russians. I'd love to see the Russian people overthrow Putin. Would you?

I wouldn't take the polish lightly.

 

[LAY THE WOODY]

Now Biden is saying that it is unlikely the missle came from Russia.

Huh?

Yer POTUS. 🤣

 

[my_2cents]

I posted everyone of your posts that you asked me to scroll up to read for what you think is the justification for Obama overthrowing the Ukrainian government, allowing Russian to take over Crimea and pushing Ukrainian entery into NATO which was a red line for Russia. Maybe you would be so kind as to highlight what you see as justification.

And you still missed it. Unbelievable.🤣🤣

This is one of the reasons we and our NATO allies are coming to the defense of Ukraine in the face of Russian aggression. There are others, i.e. strategic partner, European security, neutralizing Putin, etc.

I've never claimed there was a treaty that does exactly what you state but there was the 1994 Budapest Memorandum.

And I firmly believe Putin will do whatever he can (and can get away with) to weaken the NATO alliance, oppose our interests and the interests of our NATO allies, and represents a serious threat to European security and stability. Because of this, he represents a serious threat to us. Having Putin overthrown and/or weakening his ability/power to accomplish his goals is in our national interests and the interests of our allies.

 

[OKSTATE1]

Now Biden is saying that it is unlikely the missle came from Russia.

Huh?

He never knows what continent he is in.

 

[my_2cents]

Now Biden is saying that it is unlikely the missle came from Russia.

Huh?

Not surprised by this at all.

People need to relax some and let the investigation proceed. Regardless of the craziness @Ponca Dan has been posting.

 

[my_2cents]

He never knows what continent he is in.

He knows more about this incident than any of us do right now.

 

[LAY THE WOODY]

Not surprised by this at all.

People need to relax some and let the investigation proceed. Regardless of the craziness @Ponca Dan has been posting.

Dandelion scripts his skits, or does he? 🤣

 

[Ponca Dan]

And you still missed it. Unbelievable.🤣🤣

Damn, Son, after having the hair on you ass get scorched off you should retreat to your safe place and play with your dolls for the rest of the night. You’re like the overmatched boxer that doesn’t know to stay down when he’s been decked.

 

[2012Bearcat]

And you still missed it. Unbelievable.🤣🤣

Like I said I must be dense, you need to spell it out for me.

 

[my_2cents]

Damn, Son, after having the hair on you ass get scorched off you should retreat to your safe place and play with your dolls for the rest of the night. You’re like the overmatched boxer that doesn’t know to stay down when he’s been decked.

So no response to the interests I quoted back at you, huh? Going to ignore that I see. What a shock!

Is it time for you to go to bed and have amnesia now?🤣🤣

 

[my_2cents]

Like I said I must be dense, you need to spell it out for me.

I did.

For the third time now . . .

This is one of the reasons we and our NATO allies are coming to the defense of Ukraine in the face of Russian aggression. There are others, i.e. strategic partner, European security, neutralizing Putin, etc.

I've never claimed there was a treaty that does exactly what you state but there was the 1994 Budapest Memorandum.

And I firmly believe Putin will do whatever he can (and can get away with) to weaken the NATO alliance, oppose our interests and the interests of our NATO allies, and represents a serious threat to European security and stability. Because of this, he represents a serious threat to us. Having Putin overthrown and/or weakening his ability/power to accomplish his goals is in our national interests and the interests of our allies.

 

[Ponca Dan]

Like I said I must be dense, you need to spell it out for me.

Let me explain for him. He’s been arguing all night that the US must protect its strategic interest, and the single interest he came up with was part of a memorandum he had forgotten about. It’s fascinating how he knew what the interest was when he had forgotten about it. But he’s pretty cagey, he’ll slip and slide his way around until he’s satisfied he won the point.

 

[my_2cents]

and the single interest he came up with was part of a memorandum he had forgotten about.

False.

I gave four other interests besides the Budapest Memorandum. I also gave two goals in relation to Putin that would serve our interests and the interests of our allies.

You've now had them quoted to you and your response, as always, is to ignore that which you requested. Same old nonsense from you, just a different night.

Time for you to go to bed. You're done.

 

[Ponca Dan]

So no response to the interests I quoted back at you, huh? Going to ignore that I see. What a shock!

Is it time for you to go to bed and have amnesia now?🤣🤣

Lol! Weak.

 

[my_2cents]

Lol! Weak.

And still no response.

 

[Ponca Dan]

Lol! Weak.

But you’re right about one thing. As @davidallen put it earlier I’ve swatted you around like a gnat enoughfor one night.