So then you don't believe in separation of church and state.
I disagree with your position, but I respect that you can at least admit what you really support.
Pelosi's bishop calls for ex-communication of pols now pushing for abortion
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I disagree with your position, but I respect that you can at least admit what you really support.
Fascinating Discussion. My points:
1) The concept of "Separation of Church and State." is an evil concept, wicked and demonic to the core.
2) The State must always be subordinate to the Church.
3) Thier is only One True Church. And we know them by the 4 marks of the Church. Only the Catholic Church has them all.
4) Monarchy is superior to all governments, and a True man of the right swears loyalty to 3 things: Catholicism. Monarchy and Empire.
5) Republics and elections are demonic. They serve Lucifer and will only serve his I will not serve rebellion to God.
6) the 1776 and 1789 revolutions were evil.
7) Men of Faith and traditional Christian values must understand war is coming, and you must reject oaths to the constitution and the republic when those only result in folly like abortion on demand and gay marriage.
1) The concept of "Separation of Church and State." is an evil concept, wicked and demonic to the core.
2) The State must always be subordinate to the Church.
3) Thier is only One True Church. And we know them by the 4 marks of the Church. Only the Catholic Church has them all.
4) Monarchy is superior to all governments, and a True man of the right swears loyalty to 3 things: Catholicism. Monarchy and Empire.
5) Republics and elections are demonic. They serve Lucifer and will only serve his I will not serve rebellion to God.
6) the 1776 and 1789 revolutions were evil.
7) Men of Faith and traditional Christian values must understand war is coming, and you must reject oaths to the constitution and the republic when those only result in folly like abortion on demand and gay marriage.
You clearly have a consistent worldview. Many would of course disagree with this worldview and it definitely is incompatible with American ideals (as I'm sure you would readily admit), but it does appear you are consistent in applying your worldview across the board.
What type of monarchy do you favor?
No. Because no such thing exists. BTW, my position reflects the objective, non religious ethos of what was once a great nation, until it was polluted by the collectivist human debris of counter culture activism.
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Why do you always see excessive “muffin top” wherever feminazis go?
Any would be better than what we have now which is nothing. I favor an Absolute Catholic Monarchy that answers to the Pope and gets his legitimacy from the Papacy and the Bishops. If we can't get that I would take an absolute monarchy of a protestant King. No republics. But if we have to have one at least have a constitutional monarchy like in the UK with the sovereign as head of state.
It is good to see some of you finally admitting what so many on the right really believe.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Sorry chief, not seeing “separation of church and state” in there.
Would you force all citizens to be Catholic and pledge their loyalty to the Pope and his King/Queen? And if that is a yes, what of those who refuse to convert to Catholicism? What should become of them?
It is clearly there. Right before your eyes...
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
_________
"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." - Thomas Jefferson
If it was clearly in the first segment, you wouldn’t have needed to post the second segment, which is not the law.
Regardless, protection of the unborn is not a religious position. It’s simply a common decency position. Something sorely lacking on the left.
Yes. For the last 100 years we as conservatives have yelled at the top of lounges for things to STOP! As William F Buckley once said.
That has gotten us nowhere. Eventually following democratic norms will leave us in chains. We are rapidly approaching the time we need an Generalissimo Francisco Franco. A General Pinochet. An Antonio Salazar.
The Salazar Option › American Greatness
In recent years, Rod Dreher argued that Christians may need to retreat from a hostile world in order to maintain their way of life and their sanity. Modeling his proposal on the Christian monasteries…
amgreatness.com
If not for the 2nd Amendment I would agree with you….we have 300+ million guns. The militant Left can’t decide which bathroom to use. Easy math on who would win an armed conflict.Yes. For the last 100 years we as conservatives have yelled at the top of lounges for things to STOP! As William F Buckley once said.
That has gotten us nowhere. Eventually following democratic norms will leave us in chains. We are rapidly approaching the time we need an Generalissimo Francisco Franco. A General Pinochet. An Antonio Salazar.
The Salazar Option › American Greatness
In recent years, Rod Dreher argued that Christians may need to retreat from a hostile world in order to maintain their way of life and their sanity. Modeling his proposal on the Christian monasteries…
I quoted Thomas Jefferson just to show how separation of church and state has clearly been seen in the First Amendment since its inception. Also, that quote from Jefferson has been quoted numerous times by the Supreme Court in landmark cases.
It is rather foolish to deny that the establishment clause in the First Amendment separates church and state.
Don't move the goal posts now.
You are the one who stated your belief that Catholic doctrine should be the law of our nation as it relates to abortion.
And many would argue that a pro-choice position is the commen decency position. They wouldn't believe forcing a woman who has been raped to go through with an unwanted pregnancy as "common decency." They wouldn't believe that forcing a woman to give birth to a fetus that has little or no chance of surviving outside the womb as "common decency."
No we aren't. But you definitely continue to reveal the true thinking of many on the far-right.
Again, in your ideal state, would all citizens be required to be Catholic and pledge their loyalty to the Pope and his King/Queen? And if that is a yes, what of those who refuse to convert to Catholicism? What should become of them?
Nah, a liberal Catholic family would have left the decision up to her. Her choice. Just as God gave her a choice at The Annunciation.Good thing Mary did not give birth to Jesus in Modern Times. A liberal Catholic Family would have talked her into having an abortion since Joseph was not the Father.
There is something inherently wrong with abortion. If you don’t believe me stop by any 12 step treatment center and listen to some 5th step testimonials. You’d be surprised at the number of folks dealing with the burden of guilt and regret left after an abortion…both women and men. Deep in our soul we know it’s wrong and long term damage is inflicted when the decision is made. Some truths can’t be denied as much as we may want to deny them. I don’t need the Supreme Court or a Bible verse to explain it to me.
Don't mean to interrupt your defense of killing defenseless unborn babies but I just wanted to point out there are hundreds of thousands of abortions performed each year versus just a handful of people executed. Maybe it's just me but I would think the hundreds of thousands would be higher on the priority list.
Oh and I am not Catholic but my wife is. Personally I'm not a fan of organized religion of any kind but I am a Christian. As to abortion I am not one that wants abortion made illegal but I also don't want it used as a method of birth control. My mother was adopted when abortion was illegal. I often wonder if I would be here if abortion had been legal.
FTFY
Interesting how you referred to it as "abortion" when describing your support of abortion remaining legal.🤔
I didn’t move any goalposts. I was just noting that protection of the unborn was not a religious issue. Just a matter of right and wrong.
You claim that “separation of church and state” has been part of the constitution since its inception. In that case, it’s worth noting that the right to abortion was not concocted until 1973. And I have yet to see any decency coming from the pro-abortion crowd, or any other leftist crowd for that matter. Now, run along and practice your cafeteria Catholicism.
Unlike those that want unrestricted abortion I firmly believe abortion should be extremely rare and that women who pontificate about "their body their choice" should choose to protect themselves from an unwanted pregnancy. Leftist want all the rights but none of the responsibility that comes along with those rights and that is the main difference between us on just about everything.
I could care less that the majority of "American Catholics" believe. Most "American Catholics" know little about the tenets of the faith.
As to your position of "life begins at birth", not a single Bishop believes that. That's why you used the term "Christians" instead of referencing Church leadership. I could care less what any "protestant" believes regarding baby murder. A hundred years ago almost all "protestant" churches frowned on divorce and abortion. Tomorrow they will endorse "transgenderism." The Church will never sway on grave matters like this. It was promised that the Church would never sway against the power of "the gates of hell."
@my_2cents You said you'd answer the question, then 2+ pages of volleying like a US Open match and still no response. Are you a liar when you said you'd answer the question?
This is exactly my point.
Not all Americans are Catholic and even among American Catholics, not all of them share the same views on abortion. There are numerous faith beliefs and traditions in this country. Numerous religions. I get that you could care less what they all think. However, you nor I have no right to force the Catholic Church's position on abortion upon all Americans (especially on American women) just as they have no right to force their religious position on us through government decree.
This is why people are pro-choice. The choice remains with the woman to make, based upon her own moral, ethical, and religious convictions and considerations.
We don't live in a theocracy.
As to your position of "life begins at birth", not a single Bishop believes that.
I don't recall stating that was my position. If I did, I'm sorry and I misspoke. I was meaning to reference the position as one that others embrace.
That isn't my position.
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Sorry, I missed your response.
To answer your question, honestly I don't know. I have very conflicting personal views on abortion. I am not ashamed to admit this. This is a very tough issue (from every angle) and a deeply personal issue for women. That is why I am currently pro-choice. I believe it is best to leave this decision up to a woman.
As to any other dogmatic position I may take on this issue, there really isn't one that I can think of.
It’s not difficult at all for real Catholics, and real Americans, for that matter. In addition to destroying life, abortion is a vile, macabre act, having no place among good and decent people. It is perhaps better suited to a Bosch (not the Amazon show) portrayal of hell.
Actually, it is very difficult for many real Catholics and real Americans.. You are not representative of what all real Catholics or real Americans believe.
If you truly believed what the church teaches, you would have no difficulty at all. It would appear that you swore a false oath at confirmation, and continue to do so every time you pray the creed. Catholicism is about faith, not about where you spend 45-70 minutes every Sunday.
And the whole concept of legalized abortion had its genesis in the American left, who are anything but real Americans.
You still haven't grasped this whole separation of church and state idea, have you?
I accept what the Church teaches in my own personal faith, but I also have respect and understanding for other religious views on this issue. I don't believe I should force upon all Americans (especially American women) my Catholic faith though.
I know what Catholicism is about and what being a Christian is about. I have a strong faith and I have no disagreement with the oath I took at confirmation nor the creed I repeat at Mass.
For some reason, you feel the need to judge me because we disagree politically. Your willingness to embrace a spirit of judgment and condemnation directed at other Catholics you perceive as not being "real" is definitely not Catholic, nor is it Christian. You sound like a modern day Pharisee. Perhaps you should spend some time reading the Gospels and engaging in some reflection of what you read.
So are the real Americans the ones who stormed our Capitol on January 6? Are QAnon adherents real Americans? Are you a real American when you literally display the flag of a bunch of traitors who sought to split our Union as your avatar?
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So is a fertilized egg a human being or not? If you are content to let the mother kill it, then your answer to that question is “no”. Which places you outside the teachings of the church. It’s mind boggling how someone can stubbornly defend abortion, thus rejecting church teaching, and yet insist on calling himself Catholic. Then again, the Ignatians do the same sort of thing when it comes to letting fags teach in their schools.
And again, the pre 1973 proscriptions against abortion were not done pursuant to the establishment of any religion. It was just a matter of goodness, decency, and a well defined sense of right and wrong. All foreign concepts to the left.
And this is where you fail to understand my position. I am not "defending" abortion. I am defending a woman's right to make the decision regarding abortion herself.
I do not reject the Church's teaching. I just don't believe my Church's teaching should be forced upon others as the law of this nation.
I embrace separation of church and state.
You do realize that up to the late 1800s, abortions were allowed under common law, correct?
With that said, if you want to make an argument for making abortion illegal without invoking what a particular religion teaches, go right ahead. That would include how you define what is "right and wrong."
As to the notion of goodness and decency, I have addressed this in previous posts. Both sides argue their position is a matter of goodness and decency. Such use of those terms gets us nowhere.
I think this was the same answer Sys gave. So I'll give you the same. You're just another liberal who can't formulate your own position, so simply regurgitate the tripe given to you by the Rachel Maddow's of the world. She thinks its bad, so you must think its bad, even though you can't actually state what YOU (not Rachel) believe.
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I literally told you what I believe and answered your question. I'm sorry you have problems with people being honest and saying sometimes, they just don't know.
btw, I don't think I have every formulated my opinion based on something Rachel Maddow said. That is probably because I don't watch her show.
If you’re defending the right to choose abortion, you’re defending abortion. You just don’t want to admit it. If you believe a woman should be free to kill here unborn baby, then you are assigning a status to that baby’s life that is something less than human, in complete contravention of Catholic teaching.
And common law is irrelevant as it is not the law of the land (see my screen name). Therefore, the issue should be decided at the state level, given that the US constitution is silent. Regardless, any Catholic who supports a state law permitting abortion would be violating his/her faith as well.
Lastly, banning abortion is no more an imposition of religion on others than is banning murder, assault, battery, , rape, robbery, etc. It simply establishes an ethical and moral standard for that jurisdiction.
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I don't have problems with people not having a position. I have a problem with people who can't formulate their own position being critical of those who can. I mean really. Short of being told to do so by someone else (aka Rachel), how can you criticize anyone about their position when you can't even state your own?
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