Pelosi's bishop calls for ex-communication of pols now pushing for abortion

[my_2cents]

If you’re defending the right to choose abortion, you’re defending abortion. You just don’t want to admit it.

And again, you continue to get this wrong and completely misunderstand the pro-choice position.

One can believe something should be legal while also not agreeing with it from a faith based perspective. For example, I accept the Catholic Church's teachings on contraceptives and divorce from a faith based perspective. However, I don't believe the Church's position on these issues should be mandated by law upon all Americans. And I highly doubt you do either. Does this mean you don't accept the Church's teachings on those issues? Of course not.

And common law is irrelevant as it is not the law of the land (see my screen name). Therefore, the issue should be decided at the state level, given that the US constitution is silent.

No, common law isn't irrelevant if you are going to start discussing the history of law in the United States.

And the US constitution is not silent on this issue, as the Supreme Court has made clear. Now, you can disagree with Supreme Court's rulings, but that doesn't change what the law of the land is.

Lastly, banning abortion is no more an imposition of religion on others than is banning murder, assault, battery, , rape, robbery, etc.

I firmly disagree with this. All those crimes you listed are crimes committed against other people. There is no debate about that and religion doesn't even have to enter into the conversation.

That is not the case with abortion though. Completely separate issues.

 

[my_2cents]

I have a problem with people who can't formulate their own position being critical of those who can.

I can formulate my position and did so for you. Just because I am not 100% sure on every detail as it relates to abortion doesn't mean I can't formulate my over-all position.

how can you criticize anyone about their position when you can't even state your own?

What position have I criticized on this thread where I also can't state my own position in response?

 

[aix_xpert]

I firmly disagree with this. All those crimes you listed are crimes committed against other people. There is no debate about that and religion doesn't even have to enter into the conversation.

This is exactly right. And why my question is the most important question of the abortion debate. The exact question you can't answer. When should the 'child' become a separate person in regards to the law. That's the question you've dodged in 5 replies probably because you know as soon as you do, then your statement above becomes directly applicable. You are effectively arguing that a fetus at ANY stage is not an individual and thus not subject to the same protections that the state gives to children of all ages, yet can't actually make that statement because you're smart enough to realize the absurdity of that position.

 

[my_2cents]

When should the fetus become a separate person in regards to the law. That's the question you've dodged in 5 replies

FTFY

With that said, I have not dodged your question. I literally answered your question. I don't know nor do I pretend to have a fixed position on this issue. I realize some have their "opinion" on this. And others have their "opinion." And so forth. You probably have your opinion that you are firmly entrenched it but it probably is one that others disagree with who have their own entrenched opinion.

You are effectively arguing that a fetus at ANY stage is not an individual and thus not subject to the same protections that the state gives to children of all ages

Nope. not arguing that at all. You are now trying to create a straw man because you can't seem to accept my position.

So be it.

 

[aix_xpert]

FTFY

With that said, I have not dodged your question. I literally answered your question. I don't know nor do I pretend to have a fixed position on this issue. I realize some have their "opinion" on this. And others have their "opinion." And so forth. You probably have your opinion that you are firmly entrenched it but it probably is one that others disagree with who have their own entrenched opinion.


Nope. not arguing that at all. You are now trying to create a straw man because you can't seem to accept my position.

So be it.

A position of "I don't know what my position is" is exactly the same as not having a position.

 

[soonerinlOUisiana]

I firmly disagree with this. All those crimes you listed are crimes committed against other people.

Now you're saying that the unborn are not people, which is exactly why you are at best a "quasi-Catholic".

 

[soonerinlOUisiana]

No, common law isn't irrelevant if you are going to start discussing the history of law in the United States.

Does the USA not include Louisiana? The common law has never been the law here. Thus, the common law is irrelevant.

 

[aix_xpert]

Now you're saying that the unborn are not people, which is exactly why you are at best a "quasi-Catholic".

He didn't directly say that. He said he can't decide when the unborn should be qualified as a person and receive the protections afforded to it. He's struggling because we've advanced the thinking critically and suddenly the MSNBC programming no longer computes.

 

[TPOKE]

Not true. One can be personally against abortion but also believe it is a choice that should be left up to a woman to make. Again, one can (and should) believe they don't have the right to impose their religious beliefs on all American women.

This isn't hard to understand at all.

It only took 2 sentences for you to contradict yourself.

 

[soonerinlOUisiana]

He didn't directly say that. He said he can't decide when the unborn should be qualified as a person and receive the protections afforded to it. He's struggling because we've advanced the thinking critically and suddenly the MSNBC programming no longer computes.

He said that murder, robbery, rape, etc. affect "other people." Clearly, he does not consider the unborn to be "other people," which is a rejection of Catholicism. He didn't directly say it, but he did show his true colors pretty clearly.

 

[my_2cents]

A position of "I don't know what my position is" is exactly the same as not having a position.

You asked about my position regarding "a child becomes an independent entity from the mother in a legal sense." And I told you that I don't know, I have conflicting views on this particular aspect of the abortion debate. I also understanding the different views concerning this question and respect those views.

Hence, the reason I am pro-choice.

 

[my_2cents]

Now you're saying that the unborn are not people, which is exactly why you are at best a "quasi-Catholic".

No, I am not saying that a fetus is not a person. I am saying that not everyone agrees that a fetus is a person and this question is often wrapped up in religious convictions. And according to our law, a fetus is not afforded the same rights as someone who has been born.

So your appeal to those other crimes are not relevant to this discussion.

 

[my_2cents]

Does the USA not include Louisiana? The common law has never been the law here. Thus, the common law is irrelevant.

Louisiana is an individual state. Again, if you are going to discuss the history of law in "United States," that would include more than just one individual state.

The common law is not irrelevant in a discussion of the history of law in the United States.

 

[my_2cents]

Clearly, he does not consider the unborn to be "other people," which is a rejection of Catholicism. He didn't directly say it, but he did show his true colors pretty clearly.

It is amazing how someone can repeat something to you over and over and over again, and yet you fail to understand it. It just can't get through your rigid right-wing mindset, can it?

I have told you numerous times that I accept Catholic teaching on abortion from a faith based prospective. I just don't believe Catholic doctrine should be forced on all American women by government decree.

btw, I notice you skipped right over the whole contraceptives and divorce examples. Not a shock there. Tell me, do you believe the Catholic teaching on contraceptives should be imposed upon all Americans by government decree? Yes or no?

 

[soonerinlOUisiana]

It is amazing how someone can repeat something to you over and over and over again, and yet you fail to understand it. It just can't get through your rigid right-wing mindset, can it?

I have told you numerous times that I accept Catholic teaching on abortion from a faith based prospective. I just don't believe Catholic doctrine should be forced on all American women by government decree.

btw, I notice you skipped right over the whole contraceptives and divorce examples. Not a shock there. Tell me, do you believe the Catholic teaching on contraceptives should be imposed upon all Americans by government decree? Yes or no?

It is amazing how someone can repeat something to you over and over and over again, and yet you fail to understand it. It just can't get through your rigid left-wing mindset, can it?

It's not about imposing Catholic doctrine. It's about what constitutes life. You can't say that you accept the church's position on when life begins, and then say that that only applies if the mother believes it to be so. Your positions/beliefs are logically inconsistent, and inconsistent with Catholic teaching as well. If you believe that a mother should be permitted to kill her unborn baby, then you clearly do NOT consider that unborn baby to be a human being. It's really not that hard to understand, but it is hard impossible for left-wing quasi-Catholics to dance around.

Contraception and divorce are false comparisons. Catholic teaching on contraception (that does not destroy a fertilized egg) is based on a belief that children are a gift from God, and that by using contraception, you are rejecting this gift. That is a purely religious belief. It does not cross over into the realm of "personhood". You have not destroyed a life when conception is prevented.

Your divorce comparison makes no sense at all. Divorce is merely the termination of a civil contract, and the Church has a parallel annulment procedure for the sacrament.

 

[my_2cents]

It's not about imposing Catholic doctrine.

It is exactly about imposing Catholic doctrine according to the arguments you have been making. You don't think I am a "real" Catholic because I don't want to impose Catholic doctrine on all women by government decree. You do want to impose such doctrine on all women and thus you consider yourself a "real" Catholic.

You have made your position rather clear.

Your positions/beliefs are logically inconsistent, and inconsistent with Catholic teaching as well.

No they are not. I accept Catholic doctrine from a faith based perspective but again (for the umpteen time), I also embrace separation of church and state. I don't believe my personal faith commitments should be imposed on all by government decree.

There is no inconsistency.

Catholic teaching on contraception (that does not destroy a fertilized egg) is based on a belief that children are a gift from God, and that by using contraception, you are rejecting this gift. That is a purely religious belief. It does not cross over into the realm of "personhood".

And this is a cop-out.

The issue of what constitutes "personhood" is also based in religious beliefs. And other considerations too. You believe the way you do about abortion because of your religious beliefs. Again, you have made that clear on this thread. But not everyone shares your religious views. Nor everyone agrees with you about when life begins.

If you were consistent, you would demand that the Church's teaching regarding contraceptives be mandated by law too. But you know how extreme that would make you look, so you can't go there.

Thus, the cop-out.

 

[soonerinlOUisiana]

It is exactly about imposing Catholic doctrine according to the arguments you have been making. You don't think I am a "real" Catholic because I don't want to impose Catholic doctrine on all women by government decree. You do want to impose such doctrine on all women and thus you consider yourself a "real" Catholic.

You have made your position rather clear.


No they are not. I accept Catholic doctrine from a faith based perspective but again (for the umpteen time), I also embrace separation of church and state. I don't believe my personal faith commitments should be imposed on all by government decree.

There is no inconsistency.


And this is a cop-out.

The issue of what constitutes "personhood" is also based in religious beliefs. And other considerations too. You believe the way you do about abortion because of your religious beliefs. Again, you have made that clear on this thread. But not everyone shares your religious views. Nor everyone agrees with you about when life begins.

If you were consistent, you would demand that the Church's teaching regarding contraceptives be mandated by law too. But you know how extreme that would make you look, so you can't go there.

Thus, the cop-out.

Is a fertilized human egg cell a human life deserving the same rights and protections as a post-birth living human being?

If you answered that question with anything other than an unconditional “yes”, then you are outside the teachings of the Catholic Church, and are not a real Catholic.

And there was no cop out on my part. Divorce and contraception have nothing to do with the status of the unborn as human beings.

 

[my_2cents]

Is a fertilized human egg cell a human life deserving the same rights and protections as a post-birth living human being?

Yes, from my faith based perspective, this is what the Catholic Church teaches and I accept it.

However, again, I do not believe I should force my Church's doctrinal positions on all American women through government decree. You do. We disagree. And we are both Catholics.

Deal with it.

And there was no cop out on my part.

It absolutely was.

But I didn't expect you to be consistent. I would ask you if you personally live by Catholic teaching on the issue of contraceptives (use of which is "intrinsically evil" according to the Church), but that is a very personal question, so I won't. I will ask though, are Catholics not "real" Catholics if they use contraceptives?

 

[soonerinlOUisiana]

Yes, from my faith based perspective, this is what the Catholic Church teaches and I accept it.

However, again, I do not believe I should force my Church's doctrinal positions on all American women through government decree. You do. We disagree. And we are both Catholics.

Deal with it.


It absolutely was.

But I didn't expect you to be consistent. I would ask you if you personally live by Catholic teaching on the issue of contraceptives (use of which is "intrinsically evil" according to the Church), but that is a very personal question, so I won't. I will ask though, are Catholics not "real" Catholics if they use contraceptives?

You clearly do not believe that a fertilized human egg is a human life. You pretty much admitted this when you said that murder, battery, etc. affect “other people”. You obviously don’t consider the unborn to be other people.

And your contraception/divorce arguments are in idiotic. You might as well have suggested that we want to ban meat on Friday. 🙄

 

[my_2cents]

You clearly do not believe that a fertilized human egg is a human life.

I believe, from my faith based perspective, this because it is what my Church teaches me.

And your contraception/divorce arguments are in idiotic. You might as well have suggested that we want to ban meat on Friday. 🙄

Come on man, drop the cop-outs and deflections and just answer the question:

Are Catholics not "real" Catholics if they use contraceptives (use of which is "intrinsically evil" according to the Church)? Simple yes or no is all that is needed.

 

[soonerinlOUisiana]

I believe, from my faith based perspective, this because it is what my Church teaches me.


Come on man, drop the cop-outs and deflections and just answer the question:

Are Catholics not "real" Catholics if they use contraceptives (use of which is "intrinsically evil" according to the Church)? Simple yes or no is all that is needed.

If they use contraceptives, they have sinned and must confess that sin. If they do not accept that contraception is a sin, then they are rejecting the Catholic faith and are outside the teachings of the church.

If Catholics believe that their pregnant neighbor should be permitted to kill her unborn child, then they are denying that child’s humanity and are outside the teachings of the church, and are pretty shitty Catholics as well.

No cop outs. No inconsistencies.

 

[my_2cents]

If they use contraceptives, they have sinned and must confess that sin. If they do not accept that contraception is a sin, then they are rejecting the Catholic faith and are outside the teachings of the church.

So then they are only not "real" Catholics if they don't accept the teachings of the Church in regards to contraceptives. Their "realness" as a Catholic, according to you, has absolutely nothing to do with their secular political policy positions on this issue.

Thanks for making your position clear on this.

Interesting though how you don't apply this same reasoning to abortion. A clear inconsistency on your part.

 

[soonerinlOUisiana]

So then they are only not "real" Catholics if they don't accept the teachings of the Church in regards to contraceptives. Their "realness" as a Catholic, according to you, has absolutely nothing to do with their secular political policy positions on this issue.

Thanks for making your position clear on this.

Interesting though how you don't apply this same reasoning to abortion. A clear inconsistency on your part.

Now you’re just flailing.

If you don’t accept the faith, then your “Catholicism” is nothing more than a performance, like Jimmy Swaggert, Jim Bakker, etc. Your “realness” as a Catholic depends upon whether you accept the faith. Your willingness to keep abortion legal shows that you do not accept the Catholic faith. We are not a cafeteria plan. You do realize that, right?

 

[soonerinlOUisiana]

It’s also clear that you’ve had this discussion before, and you were schooled then, too.

 

[my_2cents]

If you don’t accept the faith, then your “Catholicism” is nothing more than a performance, like Jimmy Swaggert, Jim Bakker, etc. Your “realness” as a Catholic depends upon whether you accept the faith.

And I've told you numerous times that I do accept the faith. Simple as that.

It’s also clear that you’ve had this discussion before, and you were schooled then, too.

lol, I have no idea what you are talking about but as to this conversation, you haven't schooled anyone. You literally just exposed a clear inconsistency on your part and show no signs of trying to clear up that inconsistency.

When you start being consistent in your desire to condemn fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, let me know. Perhaps reject such condemnation altogether, but it doesn't appear you can bring yourself to do that at this point.

 

[soonerinlOUisiana]

And I've told you numerous times that I do accept the faith. Simple as that.


lol, I have no idea what you are talking about but as to this conversation, you haven't schooled anyone. You literally just exposed a clear inconsistency on your part and show no signs of trying to clear up that inconsistency.

When you start being consistent in your desire to condemn fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, let me know. Perhaps reject such condemnation altogether, but it doesn't appear you can bring yourself to do that at this point.

No you don’t. If you did, you would not defend the right of a woman to kill her unborn baby, whose life began at conception.

Your problem is that your real religion is leftism, of which abortion is the most holy sacrament. Plus you have to defend fake Catholics like Biden, Pelosi, and the Kennedys as well.

 

[aix_xpert]

You asked about my position regarding "a child becomes an independent entity from the mother in a legal sense." And I told you that I don't know, I have conflicting views on this particular aspect of the abortion debate. I also understanding the different views concerning this question and respect those views.

Hence, the reason I am pro-choice.

Hence, you support the belief that the mother has the right to choose to kill the unborn baby up until the moment it exits the birthing canal, and that the state has no obligation to provide protection to that unborn child. That obligation does not occur until birth. That is your position. See, that wasn't so hard.

 

[my_2cents]

No you don’t. If you did, you would not defend the right of a woman to kill her unborn baby, whose life began at conception.

And if you agreed with the Church's teachings on contraceptives, you wouldn't defend the right of a woman to use them in this country. You would demand they be made illegal.

But you don't. Which reveals your hypocrisy.

Your problem is that your real religion is leftism

And one could claim your problem is that your real religion is conservatism. See how such judgment can work both ways?

For some reason, you seem to be obsessed with deciding who are real Catholics and who are not. And your methods of doing this are laden with hypocrisy.

Matthew 7:1-5

 

[my_2cents]

Hence, you support the belief that the mother has the right to choose to kill the unborn baby up until the moment it exits the birthing canal, and that the state has no obligation to provide protection to that unborn child. That obligation does not occur until birth. That is your position.

No that is not my position.

You seem to be having a hard time with the fact that not everyone has set rigid opinions or positions on every issue related to abortion. Thus you feel the need to project positions on to people so you can argue with them. You can't and don't want to recognize the grey that so many other Americans recognize is wrapped in the abortion debate.

I've given you my position on this. If you can't accept or try to understand it, so be it.

 

[OUSOONER67]

Now you’re just flailing.

If you don’t accept the faith, then your “Catholicism” is nothing more than a performance, like Jimmy Swaggert, Jim Bakker, etc. Your “realness” as a Catholic depends upon whether you accept the faith. Your willingness to keep abortion legal shows that you do not accept the Catholic faith. We are not a cafeteria plan. You do realize that, right?

One would think his lil arms would be tired by now but he loves being abused I guess. 🤣🤣🤣

 

[my_2cents]

Thats because she lives rent free in your mind just like


One would think his lil arms would be tired by now but he loves being abused I guess. 🤣🤣🤣

Stop trying to make yourself relevant again OULOON. You lost all relevancy on this board last night with your epic meltdown.

One of the craziest meltdowns I have seen on this board, and that is saying something!

🤣🤣🤣

 

[OUSOONER67]

Stop trying to make yourself relevant again OULoon. You lost all relevancy on this board last night with your epic meltdown.

One of the craziest meltdowns I have seen on this board, and that is saying something!

🤣🤣🤣

You are the most delusional poster here.
Don't confuse beat down with melt down, 2 different things. What happened to you was epic, ass handed to you all day yesterday, last night until you gave up and let Daddy Dave have a go and now SBI and SIL have owned you all day. Have some pride dude I am embarrassed for you just a little.

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

[my_2cents]

Don't confuse beat down with melt down,

I'm not, you are. It was hilarious to watch though! 🤣🤣

Go back to your foolishness now, it is all you have left.

 

[OUSOONER67]

I'm not, you are. It was hilarious to watch though! 🤣🤣

Go back to your foolishness now, it is all you have left.

Damn I almost feel sorry for you but if you like the abuse who am I to judge?
You do seem to keep the laughter here directed at you so I guess you are good at something.
Posters are 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 at you not with you. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

[soonerinlOUisiana]

And if you agreed with the Church's teachings on contraceptives, you wouldn't defend the right of a woman to use them in this country. You would demand they be made illegal.

But you don't. Which reveals your hypocrisy.


And one could claim your problem is that your real religion is conservatism. See how such judgment can work both ways?

For some reason, you seem to be obsessed with deciding who are real Catholics and who are not. And your methods of doing this are laden with hypocrisy.

Matthew 7:1-5

Wrong, CINO. There is no hypocrisy in believing contraception is morally wrong, but that it should remain legal. To use your words, that clearly does not affect other people, therefore, (quoting Roe v. Wade), the state has no interest.

However, if you profess to believe that “abortion always represents the taking of a human life”, but that it is ok for the mother to do so, then you are a hypocrite of the highest order. This is the point you purposely ignore because it blows your argument out of the water and exposes your false faith.

While my religion is not “conservatism,” true Catholicism and conservatism walk hand in hand, so your confusion is understandable.

Perhaps an episcopal parish with a lesbian pastor is more suited to you.

 

[soonerinlOUisiana]

PS: I am not obsessed with deciding who real Catholics are, but when a leftist POS tries to assert his Catholicism, I will call him out on it.

 

[soonerinlOUisiana]

When you start being consistent in your desire to condemn fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, let me know. Perhaps reject such condemnation altogether, but it doesn't appear you can bring yourself to do that at this point.

While you are certainly worthy of condemnation, all I was doing was pointing out that your pro-choice position is logically irreconcilable with your purported Catholic faith.

 

[my_2cents]

There is no hypocrisy in believing contraception is morally wrong, but that it should remain legal.

You selectively apply which Catholic doctrines you want to force upon all Americans through governmental decree. You also selectively apply which Catholic doctrines other Catholics must agree to force on other Americans through governmental decree in order to remain "real" Catholics from your judgmental mindset.

Sure, you may have justified how you can do this (in your own mind), but it is still hypocrisy. Whether you want to admit it or not.

However, if you profess to believe that “abortion always represents the taking of a human life”, but that it is ok for the mother to do so, then you are a hypocrite of the highest order. This is the point you purposely ignore because it blows your argument out of the water and exposes your false faith.

And the point you purposely ignore is that I don't believe I should force what the Catholic Church teaches (and I accept) upon all Americans. You purposely ignore this or try to excuse it away because it blows your arguments out of the water.

While my religion is not “conservatism,” conservative Catholicism walk hand in hand

FTFY

PS: I am not obsessed with deciding who real Catholics are, but when a leftist POS tries to assert his Catholicism, I will call him out on it.

Yes I know, you love to condemn and judge fellow Catholics if they don't agree with you politically. You have made this very clear on this thread and that is really all you have succeeded in doing.

I'll continue to assert my Catholic faith though, just as will others who disagree with you politically. Sorry this upsets you so much.

all I was doing was pointing out that your pro-choice position is logically irreconcilable with your purported Catholic faith.

And you have failed horribly at this.

Better luck next time.

 

[soonerinlOUisiana]

You selectively apply which Catholic doctrines you want to force upon all Americans through governmental decree. You also selectively apply which Catholic doctrines other Catholics must agree to force on other Americans through governmental decree in order to remain "real" Catholics from your judgmental mindset.

Sure, you may have justified how you can do this (in your own mind), but it is still hypocrisy. Whether you want to admit it or not.


And the point you purposely ignore is that I don't believe I should force what the Catholic Church teaches (and I accept) upon all Americans. You purposely ignore this or try to excuse it away because it blows your arguments out of the water.


FTFY


Yes I know, you love to condemn and judge fellow Catholics if they don't agree with you politically. You have made this very clear on this thread and that is really all you have succeeded in doing.

I'll continue to assert my Catholic faith though, just as will others who disagree with you politically. Sorry this upsets you so much.


And you have failed horribly at this.

Better luck next time.

So an unborn baby is only a human being if the mother believes it is. Is that what the Catholic Church teaches? (Hint: No, CINO).

PS: If you should ever run into James Martin, SJ, at one of your bareback parties, tell him I’m praying for his soul.