It is time to take a stand for Education

[anon_xl72qcu5isp39]

My wife teaches, has a Masters and makes nowhere near the $65K-$70K brt wants for certified teachers with a Bachelors. To achieve that there has to be a lot cutting and additional taxes.

All this aside, the BS teachers have to put up with nowadays isn't worth the pay, unless I live in rural America and make what they do in the north east.

Tough call here. Yes, they undoubtedly deserve more. On the other hand, I can't count the number of school teachers that voted for conservative government and now are offended at getting exactly what they wanted.

This is conservative government, teachers voted for it in droves.

 

[PokeMBA]

I'm not against teacher raises. I just wanted real reasoning behind it which SMemmett never gave other than he 'feels' underpaid and has a bunch of 'clients'.

Those aren't real reasons. Those are complaints almost everyone has.

I have doctor, lawyer friends and investment advisors who do extremely well that complain about the exact same stuff....they feel they are underpaid and get a raw deal. The make so much money for their clients or patients.

Most professions are paid market rates based on what is needed to recruit and retain the necessary talent.

Teachers are no exception. The Teacher advocate groups can talk about leaving to Texas for new jobs or surrounding states but if you're leaving for $1-2K more in KS/Arkansas or New Mexico then so be it.

If you're leaving for $5K-10K more in Texas than go for it! No one will stop you.

If there actually is a teacher shortage, the administration and state government themselves will be forced to solve the issue not a bunch of teachers taking days off from teaching to go protest.

 

[BIGOSUFAN]

Tough call here. Yes, they undoubtedly deserve more. On the other hand, I can't count the number of school teachers that voted for conservative government and now are offended at getting exactly what they wanted.

This is conservative government, teachers voted for it in droves.

Total BS. It is "far-right conservative government." It is not "conservative government."

 

[Rdcldad]

I don't think teachers are underpaid. They want more money, they need to start doing a better job.

then their job needs to begin and end with educating students

 

[cableok]

I don't think teachers are underpaid. They want more money, they need to start doing a better job.

Huh?

Better teachers are not paid more than poor teachers. We need merit- based pay, but it is not there now.

 

[Ostatedchi]

Tough call here. Yes, they undoubtedly deserve more. On the other hand, I can't count the number of school teachers that voted for conservative government and now are offended at getting exactly what they wanted.

This is conservative government, teachers voted for it in droves.

I hear you and I preach that all the time. You don't want state senators like Julie Daniels in office? Don't vote for them. That's why I campaigned for her opponent - an ex-teacher who would support a budget that would hopefully address some of these issues. But, alas... my candidate didn't win and we have the government we deserve.

 

[CBradSmith]

I hear you and I preach that all the time. You don't want state senators like Julie Daniels in office? Don't vote for them. That's why I campaigned for her opponent - an ex-teacher who would support a budget that would hopefully address some of these issues. But, alas... my candidate didn't win and we have the government we deserve.

Not saying you were advocating for a Dem, as it easily could gave been a Rep challenger you were supporting. That said, I 100% believe the priorities and disposition of the Dem party at the national level make the local Dem label toxic, even if the candidate is fairly centrist.

 

[CowboyPhil]

No public school teacher is in it to make a fortune. It's that there hasn't been a raise in so long, all while our class sizes are getting larger and the amount of personal money spent on supplies goes up.

When did the class sizes go down? I graduated in 89 and we normally had 30-35 per class with 1 teacher and none of these "aides". My kids class sizes grew from 20 to around 25-28 with 1 teacher and usually 1-2 "aides" this year and everyone is complaining that class sizes are too large.

So, what year did they drop to 20? Just curious.

 

[Ostatedchi]

Not saying you were advocating for a Dem, as it easily could gave been a Rep challenger you were supporting. That said, I 100% believe the priorities and disposition of the Dem party at the national level make the local Dem label toxic, even if the candidate is fairly centrist.

This was in the Republican primary. But I did vote for the Democrat in the general over Julie Daniels.

 

[driad]

I'm sympathetic to the situation. Consolidation of district administration would be a good start.

I read an article about consolidation of school districts, the amount of money saved just from cutting the number of superintendents, staffs, and offices was an incredibly high number that would amaze people.

 

[SMemmett]

When did the class sizes go down? I graduated in 89 and we normally had 30-35 per class with 1 teacher and none of these "aides". My kids class sizes grew from 20 to around 25-28 with 1 teacher and usually 1-2 "aides" this year and everyone is complaining that class sizes are too large.

So, what year did they drop to 20? Just curious.

I believe that part of the last teacher strike in the early 90's established a maximum classroom size. But, as populations have grown those limits have become hard to enforce.

 

[CowboyPhil]

Thanks for the reply and info

 

[Ostatedchi]

Thanks for the reply and info

Yeah, 1990 was House Bill 1017. It has pretty much been neutered over the years. But it did reduce class sizes for a time. But they've slowly crept back up.

 

[cableok]

I believe that part of the last teacher strike in the early 90's established a maximum classroom size. But, as populations have grown those limits have become hard to enforce.

I didn’t know much about the 1990 strike, but found a NY Times article about it.

Number of schools shut down: Only 1/4 of the school districts closed down in 1990. Seems like the number may be the same this year.
Interesting, article said the OEA claimed 80% of union teachers supported the walk-out in 1990, just like OEA claims now.
And West Virginia teachers went on strike earlier in 1990, just like now.

Teacher pay: Starting teacher minimum pay was $15,060 in 1990. It is now $31,600. So starting minimum salary has increased over 100% from 1990 which is approximatley a 2.69% growth rate.

State comparison: Article said OK was 48th in teacher pay. Behind Mississippi and West Virginia.

 

[HighStickHarry]

Sending the worst behaved 5% of students to slave labor camps would improve things so much for teachers they would abandon any talk of needing more money.

 

[aix_xpert]

Every tax plan sucks. Step Up Oklahoma had bi partisan support. Zealots on the right and left killed it. I want them gone. Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

I'm not in Oklahoma and can't speak to the StepUp bill, but I'd make the casual observation that if both Dems and Reps rejected it (which seems to be the case) then it obviously didn't have ENOUGH bi-partisan support.

 

[Rdcldad]

Sending the worst behaved 5% of students to slave labor camps would improve things so much for teachers they would abandon any talk of needing more money.

needs to be a sliding scale percentage

now there is an actual conversation that can take place about compensation

 

[TPOKE]

Sending the worst behaved 5% of students to slave labor camps would improve things so much for teachers they would abandon any talk of needing more money.

A lot of truth to sending the problem kids home. My wife was so pissed about 10 yrs ago when there was talk about performance based pay for teachers. I told her I had no problem with it, as long as they could "fire" the problem student after three warnings, since their job depended on it. Send them back to their parents if they don't want to behave and let them deal with them. I'd bet there'd be a dramatic change. A lot of parents rely way too much on schools for raising of their children.

 

[Ostatedchi]

I'm not in Oklahoma and can't speak to the StepUp bill, but I'd make the casual observation that if both Dems and Reps rejected it (which seems to be the case) then it obviously didn't have ENOUGH bi-partisan support.

To be fair, we passed a constitutional amendment that requires ANY tax increase to have a 75% super majority. It would have passed as a general bill.

 

[aix_xpert]

Every year, in my experiences, there are teachers who are fired or 'let go'. Most have been in their first year or two before tenure kicks in. But, I'd guess maybe 3 in my 5 years have been fired for various reasons.

That's just what I'm privy to, I guess there's been a couple more that I didn't know about.

Strange...in the finance industry (which pays great) we layoff the bottom 8-10% of employees every year. So what is job security worth?

 

[GunsOfFrankEaton]

The average person wouldn't last half of a day in most of the public schools located anywhere in metropolitan America. They are veritable zoos with the monkeys running the show. Throw-in gobs of kids whose parents illegally crossed the border within the last 5 years and you have a zoo collapsing on itself. How are teachers supposed to be evaluated when many of their students barely speak English? Teachers are spit up on, kicked and slugged in the face. And it is next to impossible to get rid of problem kids. It's a damn fiasco. If most people saw what actually happens in a classroom they would turn away and run and not look back lest they turn into a pillar of salt. I would rather pick cotton for a living. Pay these teachers some damn money.

 

[aix_xpert]

The average person wouldn't last half of a day in most of the public schools located anywhere in metropolitan America. They are veritable zoos with the monkeys running the show. Throw-in gobs of kids whose parents illegally crossed the border within the last 5 years and you have a zoo collapsing on itself. How are teachers supposed to be evaluated when many of their students barely speak English? Teachers are spit up on, kicked and slugged in the face. And it is next to impossible to get rid of problem kids. It's a damn fiasco. If most people saw what actually happens in a classroom they would turn away and run and not look back lest they turn into a pillar of salt. I would rather pick cotton for a living. Pay these teachers some damn money.

I'm all for paying teachers more. I only ask 3 questions: 1) How will an extra $10K per year change ANYTHING in your post above (which I agree is a major issue with our schools)? 2) Who's paying for it? What tax will you increase to fund it? 3) How will you guarantee the districts use the money for this purpose and not for new metal detectors, trans-gender bathroom remodels, new football stadiums, on-site psychologists, sleep rooms, and the myriad of other 'necessities' that every school seems to be required to purchase?

 

[aix_xpert]

I do think Oklahoma could take a lesson from other states such as Florida. Every county is its own school district and its 1 per county. This means the tax base aligns directly back to the school from a property tax perspective, and gives the counties and its citizens a lot more options separate from the state funding levels to pass bonds to directly impact the local schools. If Oklahoma would do this, then you don't have a Mustang, El Reno, and Yukon school district, you just have the Canadian county district, and the county could address teacher pay via local property taxes and not be tied to some nitwit in the capital. Those districts that took care of their teachers would become the 'good' districts to live in and the increased property taxes would be offset to the homeowners by improved property values.

 

[PDT816]

The average person wouldn't last half of a day in most of the public schools located anywhere in metropolitan America. They are veritable zoos with the monkeys running the show. Throw-in gobs of kids whose parents illegally crossed the border within the last 5 years and you have a zoo collapsing on itself. How are teachers supposed to be evaluated when many of their students barely speak English? Teachers are spit up on, kicked and slugged in the face. And it is next to impossible to get rid of problem kids. It's a damn fiasco. If most people saw what actually happens in a classroom they would turn away and run and not look back lest they turn into a pillar of salt. I would rather pick cotton for a living. Pay these teachers some damn money.

I'm sorry. The public education system has become a complete shit show and your response is that we need to pay the people who helped it happen more money. That's money well spent.

 

[GunsOfFrankEaton]

I'm sorry. The public education system has become a complete shit show and your response is that we need to pay the people who helped it happen more money. That's money well spent.

Teachers are not the ones responsible for raising kids who attack teachers.

Teachers are not responsible for the massive droves of illiterate Mexican peasant children being dropped into the school system when these kids are 5 years old.

Teachers are not responsible for the rising number of babies born to drugged-up mothers.

Teachers are not responsible for the horrific things kids see at home nowadays, events that trouble these children for the rest of their lives.

The many societal ills that have turned our schools into wastelands we're not caused by the teachers.

 

[SMemmett]

I'm not against teacher raises. I just wanted real reasoning behind it which SMemmett never gave other than he 'feels' underpaid and has a bunch of 'clients'.

Those aren't real reasons. Those are complaints almost everyone has.

I don't want a raise just for me, I want all teachers to get raises. Because right now there is no incentive to become a teacher in Oklahoma and the occupation of teacher is competing against other jobs that require a 4 year degree and they aren't going to do well in that market place.

Emergency certifications are at an all time high, lowering the overall quality of Oklahoma teachers, which will lower the performance of the students and impact the state in numerous ways.

 

[PokeMBA]

I don't want a raise just for me, I want all teachers to get raises. Because right now there is no incentive to become a teacher in Oklahoma and the occupation of teacher is competing against other jobs that require a 4 year degree and they aren't do well in that market place.

Emergency certifications are at an all time high, lowering the overall quality of Oklahoma teachers, which will lower the performance of the students and impact the state in numerous ways.

2-2.5% of all teachers in OK are 'emergency certified'. The majority reason for Oklahoma emergency certifications is a teacher who is certified in one state and are moving to Oklahoma and the 2nd leading cause is someone who has a 4-year non-teaching degree who wants to teach.

Neither of those situations cause me any concern on the level of teaching quality.

What does concern me on quality of education is lack of resources for the students in certain districts and using updated materials. As well as providing the right amount of resources to meet an acceptable standard.

So your whole premise on asking for state-wide teacher raise is because there are these 'alternative emergency teachers' who are going to come in and be below the quality of a normal 4-year teach degree person.

I don't buy it. The levels of use 'emergency certifications' has remained at 1.5%-2.5% over the last 15 years.

 

[GunsOfFrankEaton]

I don't want a raise just for me, I want all teachers to get raises. Because right now there is no incentive to become a teacher in Oklahoma and the occupation of teacher is competing against other jobs that require a 4 year degree and they aren't do well in that market place.

Emergency certifications are at an all time high, lowering the overall quality of Oklahoma teachers, which will lower the performance of the students and impact the state in numerous ways.

You are exactly right.

The days of a teacher spending any time longer than a few years in the classroom is largely over. First-year teachers right out of college seem to immediately realize their mistake the first few weeks in the classroom.

Something else lacking in public schools today is male teachers. Female teachers across the fruited plain long for and pray for more male teachers in their schools to help with these kids

You will not keep experienced teachers in the classroom and you certainly will not attract male teachers unless they are paid more than the current pittance.

If you want to ride a horse you need to put a saddle on it.

 

[SMemmett]

2-2.5% of all teachers in OK are 'emergency certified'. The majority reason for Oklahoma emergency certifications is a teacher who is certified in one state and are moving to Oklahoma and the 2nd leading cause is someone who has a 4-year non-teaching degree who wants to teach.

Neither of those situations cause me any concern on the level of teaching quality.

What does concern me on quality of education is lack of resources for the students in certain districts and using updated materials. As well as providing the right amount of resources to meet an acceptable standard.

So your whole premise on asking for state-wide teacher raise is because there are these 'alternative emergency teachers' who are going to come in and be below the quality of a normal 4-year teach degree person.

I don't buy it. The levels of use 'emergency certifications' has remained at 1.5%-2.5% over the last 15 years.

I'm curious to where you got this information.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...-emergency-certified-teachers-during-shortage


"For fiscal year 2017, the board approved a record of almost 1,200 emergency certificates, about a 9 percent increase over last year's total of more than 1,000 certificates.

Five years ago the board only issued just over 30 certifications in the state in a single year."

 

[HighStickHarry]

Hire vets as teachers aides (no degree required) in charge of discipline.

 

[SMemmett]

Hire vets as teachers aides (no degree required) in charge of discipline.

What if my vet keeps bringing up 'Nam?

 

[SMemmett]

@PokeMBA Why is there a teacher shortage in Oklahoma? Are there similar teacher shortages all across the nation?

 

[Ponca Dan]

It's not a fiscal discussion party until @Ponca Dan makes an appearance. Come on in @Ponca Dan

No, no! I’m staying out of this one!

 

[aix_xpert]

No, no! I’m staying out of this one!

But we could use the revenues from our tariffs to pay for more teachers.

 

[HighStickHarry]

What if my vet keeps bringing up 'Nam?

Walter sobcheck would be the best teachers aid, teacher, or principal in the country.

 

[PDT816]

Teachers are not the ones responsible for raising kids who attack teachers.

Teachers are not responsible for the massive droves of illiterate Mexican peasant children being dropped into the school system when these kids are 5 years old.

Teachers are not responsible for the rising number of babies born to drugged-up mothers.

Teachers are not responsible for the horrific things kids see at home nowadays, events that trouble these children for the rest of their lives.

The many societal ills that have turned our schools into wastelands we're not caused by the teachers.

How do you know that teachers aren't responsible for raising kids who attack people? Kids spend more time in the public education system than anywhere else in their formative years. Would you be opposed to actually studying if it's our public education system's doctrine that is creating these monsters?

I think you need to look up what the NEA lobbies for when it comes to immigration and educational proposals regarding these "peasant children".

Is your claim that we don't do drug education in public schools? Or are you just agreeing that we're doing a really shitty job on that front as well?

I would agree, teachers aren't responsible for what kids see at home.

Your average 18 year old is dumber than shit even in the most privileged communities. These aren't wastelands and the public education system is still abysmal.

 

[PokeMBA]

I'm curious to where you got this information.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...-emergency-certified-teachers-during-shortage


"For fiscal year 2017, the board approved a record of almost 1,200 emergency certificates, about a 9 percent increase over last year's total of more than 1,000 certificates.

Five years ago the board only issued just over 30 certifications in the state in a single year."

First off, the number of teachers in Oklahoma has grown over the last 5 years. So part of this demand isn't a case of the inability to 'backfill' previously filled teacher positions but the ability to keep up with GROWTH. That is an entirely different situation.

You don't understand "emergency certifications" if you think it equates to 'teacher shortages'. Read link below more more info.

9% increase year over year increase on teachers using the alternative routes deemed legal and applicable by law to become active teachers in Oklahoma. If anything, those numbers only indicate that the approved Alternative Teaching Certification Program is working as intended. It does not mean Oklahoma is desperate for teachers. They must still meet the eligibility requirements that have been approved by certification laws.

"Teachers who did not start out intending to teach, but who take that path eventually, are often introduced to teaching as substitutes or through the “emergency” certification process—a misnomer for an alternative route that often has little or nothing to do with a true emergency."


"According to authors Baylee Butler and Byron Schlomach, those who advance this narrative argue that “the fact two percent (of Oklahoma’s teachers) have emergency certification is evidence of a major teacher shortage. This assumes emergency certified individuals are not qualified to be in the classroom, and that administrators hire them out of desperation. However, no evidence is presented to back up this assumption.”

To truly be unqualified, they wrote, “the holder of an emergency certificate should lack adequate content knowledge and/or teaching experience. It is true some lack teaching experience, but none should lack content knowledge.”

In an interview, Schlomach told me that the use of certification exemptions is an expression of local control within the school system. In order to utilize the exemption process, he said, local administrators must verify the content expertise of the individual within the subject matter. Also, the requesting district superintendent is required to write a letter of support explaining why the State Board should approve the certification."
http://www.ocpathink.org/post/demystifying-emergency-certification

 

[davidallen]

If I do stay in education and move, I'd probably move away from this region altogether.

$70k a yr for Dept head ... Come west young man.

 

[davidallen]

dude or dudette

you are trying to have a conversation with folks who are pushing back at every turn

you give suggestion about teaching in an auditorium and get typecast as spiteful instead of your point being discussed on merit

nobody and i mean nobody had the nads to tell mike gundy he lives in stillwater and the 4.2 he signed for spent like 12 in LA when he re-negotiated

bottom line is teacher pay is horrendous, an argument to the contrary is obtuse

Strong

 

[BvillePoker]

I think teachers need a pay raise, but I think that raise comes with a mandate that we achieve a higher level of learning in Oklahoma. In 2016 only about a third of students from grades 4-8 tested in reading, math and science at above a "proficient" level.