It is time to take a stand for Education

[TPOKE]

My wife teaches, has a Masters and makes nowhere near the $65K-$70K brt wants for certified teachers with a Bachelors. To achieve that there has to be a lot cutting and additional taxes.

All this aside, the BS teachers have to put up with nowadays isn't worth the pay, unless I live in rural America and make what they do in the north east.

 

[GunsOfFrankEaton]

You couldn't pay me enough to teach in a public school classroom, especially in the larger metropolitan areas. How we can still hoodwink people to sign up for this torture is beyond me.

 

[poke2001]

Why are we advocating for raises for all teachers? Any additional money needs to go to poor districts or reward teachers with the best evaluations.

this.

Not all teachers deserve a raise. The schools are in shitty shape and need money for books, classroom materials, etc. While the teachers are underpaid, it isn’t nearly as much as we like to yell out. As many in here have pointed out, ranking 30 adjusted for cost of living isn’t horrible. We should want to get that to the top 20 though.

Teachers are paid very little because they really don’t demand that much pay. It’s a very simple career to get into, and many people do so simply to get summers off and keep a work schedule identical to their children’s schedule. If someone can het higher pay somewhere else, go for it...eventually the market would demand higher pay or there wouldn’t be any teachers left.

 

[PDT816]

The public education system sucks big sweaty donkey balls. Anyone that that low teacher pay is the problem or the place to start is too stupid to be writing their legislatures

 

[Rdcldad]

nw classen was a good school
putnam city was a good school
pc north was a good school

all three are nothing compared to what they were

schools aren’t getting better
aren’t even holding serve
they are going south

schools can’t fix the society that goes to them

 

[CBradSmith]

Oklahoma is 30th in teacher pay when adjusted for cost of living.

Teachers are in service 36-38 weeks during the year and have 1-2 weeks of "time off" they can use during the year. They effectively work 36 weeks a year on average.

Even though most hours for teachers require 7-4 let's just assume 10 hour days for their benefit for 36 weeks is 1,800 hours worked.

$42,000 annual average salary not including benefits and retirement plans.

Converting to per hour basis is $23/hour. This is the same pay as an entry level RN nurse which requires much more technical skills and training plus liability and has an equal importance to society.

Now we are getting granular.

Which means, @brtinla , we are drilling down on a cornerstone metric from which to build.

Stop representing yourself in such drama queen fashion. My whole family is/was in education, it's not intimate to just you.

 

[SMemmett]

I work at a 6A school, teach 6 AP classes a day, I'm department head, this is my 5th year teaching and my take home pay last month was $2,156.

 

[poke2001]

I work at a 6A school, teach 6 AP classes a day, I'm department head, this is my 5th year teaching and my take home pay last month was $2,156.

You should look for a new job if Pay is what you are after.

 

[PokeMBA]

I work at a 6A school, teach 6 AP classes a day, I'm department head, this is my 5th year teaching and my take home pay last month was $2,156.

How much more pay do you think you deserve and why?

I don't know many people across any profession that don't feel they deserve a pay raise. So I'm curious to your reasoning

 

[SMemmett]

Before I answer your questions, you think that is a fair wage for someone with a 4 year degree and 5 years experience? You think that is conducive to an educated populace?

I have 147 students, I get paid roughly (keep in mind I'm not a math teacher) 73 cents an hour to teach one kid.

 

[poke2001]

CuttIng admin costs would certainly help smaller schools. My kids go to a school that has maybe 25 teachers pk- 12. They have a superintendent and he has a secretary. The elementary and 7-12 both have principles and secretaries.

If they consolidated this district with the other close one 6 miles away, seems you could eliminate the superintendent office and save $100k plus. You divide that up amongst teachers and that’s a lot. You put that in the school instead and you can have copy paper and other supplies easily.

Is it the only fix? No, but it should happen. Need a formula for how many students per principal and how many per super. Easy, quick money saving without cutting teachers or supplies for students.

 

[poke2001]

Before I answer your questions, you think that is a fair wage for someone with a 4 year degree and 5 years experience? You think that is conducive to an educated populace?

I have 147 students, I get paid roughly (keep in mind I'm not a math teacher) 73 cents an hour to teach one kid.

That’s a bullshit hourly calculation. You aren’t teaching them in series. You teach in parallel.

Scary you are a teacher if that is the type of math.

 

[SMemmett]

That’s a bullshit hourly calculation. You aren’t teaching them in series. You teach in parallel.

Scary you are a teacher if that is the type of math.

Then lets just start piling kids into auditoriums, hundreds at a time and just have hour long lectures, save money that way. Teach them all in parallel at once.

 

[CBradSmith]

Before I answer your questions, you think that is a fair wage for someone with a 4 year degree and 5 years experience? You think that is conducive to an educated populace?

I have 147 students, I get paid roughly (keep in mind I'm not a math teacher) 73 cents an hour to teach one kid.

"Fair" is the agreed upon price between buyer and seller. It is influenced largely by 'ease of replacement.'

 

[PokeMBA]

Before I answer your questions, you think that is a fair wage for someone with a 4 year degree and 5 years experience? You think that is conducive to an educated populace?

I have 147 students, I get paid roughly (keep in mind I'm not a math teacher) 73 cents an hour to teach one kid.

By my assumed math you make an $21.50/hour. That per hour number seems pretty fair to me from an outside perspective. I wouldn't say it is high pay for 5 years experience and a 4 year degree but it is also a public service, government funded position. Why do you believe it is not fair?

When you consider your retirement benefits and healthcare which are better than market average.

73 cents per hour per kid seems like a weird metric and you could make those type of statements about a lot of fields.

 

[CBradSmith]

Then lets just start piling kids into auditoriums, hundreds at a time and just have hour long lectures, save money that way. Teach them all in parallel at once.

You turning spiteful means we've reached a breakdown in dialogue.

Btw, why is there no merit in some version of your tongue-in-cheek idea? Universities have been doing it for decades.

 

[SMemmett]

"Fair" is the agreed upon price between buyer and seller. It is influenced largely by 'ease of replacement.'

Is 'ease of replacement' for teachers not subjective?

 

[wyomingosualum]

I work at a 6A school, teach 6 AP classes a day, I'm department head, this is my 5th year teaching and my take home pay last month was $2,156.

Your situation is similar to mine 25 years ago. I decided to leave the state. Best financial decision I ever made. There are things I miss about Oklahoma, but leaving was the right decision for me.

Once you realize that things really aren’t going to change because there are 100 people that will take your job for the same money once you vacate, it becomes an easier decision.

 

[SMemmett]

By my assumed math you make an $21.50/hour. That per hour number seems pretty fair to me from an outside perspective. I wouldn't say it is high pay for 5 years experience and a 4 year degree but it is also a public service, government funded position. Why do you believe it is not fair?

When you consider your retirement benefits and healthcare which are better than market average.

73 cents per hour per kid seems like a weird metric and you could make those type of statements about a lot of fields.

What government funded, public service position do you see 147 'clients/customers' every single day?

 

[SMemmett]

You turning spiteful means we've reached a breakdown in dialogue.

Btw, why is there no merit in some version of your tongue-in-cheek idea? Universities have been doing it for decades.

There's no spite. I was commenting on his opinion of my 'bullshit math'.

18-22 year olds can handle that and have the discipline for it, but what about 6th graders?

 

[PokeMBA]

What government funded, public service position do you see 147 'clients/customers' every single day?

You see 147 clients, but that is probably 25 at a time for 6 1-hour sessions.

And I would say sanitation workers, post office employees, social security administration, DMV, tag offices (in states where government funded), police officers protect and serve thousands every day, as do fire fighters.

All of these public service positions have wide variety of pay and none are paid on the basis of # of clients.

 

[BIGOSUFAN]

I work at a 6A school, teach 6 AP classes a day, I'm department head, this is my 5th year teaching and my take home pay last month was $2,156.

Sorry to hear, that is unacceptable. You thought about moving to Texas?

Where I live (Upper Arlington, OH) has one of the best public school systems in the entire country. High school teachers make $80,000-$100,000 and the high school is basically a prep school. Yeah I pay a lot in property taxes but it is well worth it. Nothing is more important than my kids' education.

 

[CBradSmith]

Is 'ease of replacement' for teachers not subjective?

It may not be desirable based on who the replacement is. But the dollar metro is not subjective.

Do you know many teachers that have been fired?

If the best teachers are efficient at 125% of the average, and bad teachers teach at 75% of the average, should bad teachers be fired and good teachers be paid more?

 

[CBradSmith]

It's not a fiscal discussion party until @Ponca Dan makes an appearance. Come on in @Ponca Dan

 

[SMemmett]

Sorry to hear, that is unacceptable. You thought about moving to Texas?

Where I live (Upper Arlington, OH) has one of the best public school systems in the entire country. High school teachers make $80,000-$100,000 and the high school is basically a prep school. Yeah I pay a lot in property taxes but it is well worth it. Nothing is more important than my kids' education.

I've certainly thought about it. If nothing happens this summer, the 2018-19 school year will probably be my last one in Oklahoma or as a teacher.

 

[CBradSmith]

I've certainly thought about it. If nothing happens this summer, the 2018-19 school year will probably be my last one in Oklahoma or as a teacher.

Heads up that if you move to DFW, your salary may jump 30%-50%, but your housing expense may jump 50-100%.

If you move to a more rural area, housing expense will be less and bump in salary will be less.

 

[SMemmett]

It may not be desirable based on who the replacement is. But the dollar metro is not subjective.

Do you know many teachers that have been fired?

If the best teachers are efficient at 125% of the average, and bad teachers teach at 75% of the average, should bad teachers be fired and good teachers be paid more?

Every year, in my experiences, there are teachers who are fired or 'let go'. Most have been in their first year or two before tenure kicks in. But, I'd guess maybe 3 in my 5 years have been fired for various reasons.

That's just what I'm privy to, I guess there's been a couple more that I didn't know about.

 

[SMemmett]

Heads up that if you move to DFW, your salary may jump 30%-50%, but your housing expense may jump 50-100%.

If you move to a more rural area, housing expense will be less and bump in salary will be less.

If I do stay in education and move, I'd probably move away from this region altogether.

 

[CBradSmith]

I've certainly thought about it. If nothing happens this summer, the 2018-19 school year will probably be my last one in Oklahoma or as a teacher.

And to be clear, I live in DFW. I don't necessarily want to. My line of work pays me 15-30% more here than a like job in OKC or Tulsa.

I've chosen to live here inexpensively (meaning that I choose to save money, not spend money) with the knowledge that I will return to Oklahoma.

I've been in DFW ~15 years and I'm just about to the point of moving back to Oklahoma. I've made strategic decisions that will allow me to do so on my terms, namely where I've chosen to live and how I've (not) spent money.

I expect to take a pay cut moving back.

 

[Rdcldad]

You should look for a new job if Pay is what you are after.

such a wrong answer, cloaked in the right one

 

[Marshal Jim Duncan]

Before I answer your questions, you think that is a fair wage for someone with a 4 year degree and 5 years experience? You think that is conducive to an educated populace?

I have 147 students, I get paid roughly (keep in mind I'm not a math teacher) 73 cents an hour to teach one kid.

Did they lower the pay substantially while you were in school or have they lowered it since you got out? Public school teacher salaries are among the easiest to know when considering what degree/career to pursue .

 

[Rdcldad]

If I do stay in education and move, I'd probably move away from this region altogether.

dude or dudette

you are trying to have a conversation with folks who are pushing back at every turn

you give suggestion about teaching in an auditorium and get typecast as spiteful instead of your point being discussed on merit

nobody and i mean nobody had the nads to tell mike gundy he lives in stillwater and the 4.2 he signed for spent like 12 in LA when he re-negotiated

bottom line is teacher pay is horrendous, an argument to the contrary is obtuse

 

[Ostatedchi]

How often do you beat her? Can she speak only when spoken too? You are a complete and total asshole.

I thought about this last night and concluded that beating my wife has other benefits.

After a good thrashing, she will often times go up to the school to 'get her classroom ready', or 'work on her planning book and curriculum', or 'grade papers'. I know she's doing it just to get out of the house and away from me. I'm okay with that as long as dinner is on time. But, the time she uses at the school hiding from her next beating is time devoted to her students.

So really, I'm doing it for the students. You all should be grateful that I'm such a benevolent husband and that I beat her. I'm just thinking of the children.

 

[PDT816]

The purpose of the public education system is to prepare kids to be productive members of society.

This is the only metric to be used when debating teachers salaries. The argument for better salaries begins and ends with how good of a job teachers do at preparing kids for this social contract.

 

[SMemmett]

Did they lower the pay substantially while you were in school or have they lowered it since you got out? Public school teacher salaries are among the easiest to know when considering what degree/career to pursue .

No public school teacher is in it to make a fortune. It's that there hasn't been a raise in so long, all while our class sizes are getting larger and the amount of personal money spent on supplies goes up.

Nobody is looking for a 20K raise except brt. Just need a show of good faith from the state after years of promises.

 

[Rdcldad]

The purpose of the public education system is to prepare kids to be productive members of society.

This is the only metric to be used when debating teachers salaries. The argument for better salaries begins and ends with how good of a job teachers do at preparing kids for this social contract.

in a petri dish sure

 

[Marshal Jim Duncan]

No public school teacher is in it to make a fortune. It's that there hasn't been a raise in so long, all while our class sizes are getting larger and the amount of personal money spent on supplies goes up.

Nobody is looking for a 20K raise except brt. Just need a show of good faith from the state after years of promises.

OK. I support a raise, FWIW. And you shouldn't have to spend your own money on supplies, unless it's some special project you dreamed up I suppose.

 

[PDT816]

in a petri dish sure

No. When people start discussing this issue on what the public education system is designed for instead of an entitlement program for teachers and students, then we'll see improvements to the system on whole.

Public Education was designed, implemented and sold as a social contract. We need to get back to that mentality or we need to blow it up and start over.

 

[CBradSmith]

dude or dudette

you are trying to have a conversation with folks who are pushing back at every turn

you give suggestion about teaching in an auditorium and get typecast as spiteful instead of your point being discussed on merit

nobody and i mean nobody had the nads to tell mike gundy he lives in stillwater and the 4.2 he signed for spent like 12 in LA when he re-negotiated

bottom line is teacher pay is horrendous, an argument to the contrary is obtuse

Your summation misses the mark repeatedly when the full context of the discussion is acknowledged.

Not a single person here has stated a disagreement to the first half of your bottom line.

Virtue signalling isn't your traditional M.O.

 

[PDT816]

I don't think teachers are underpaid. They want more money, they need to start doing a better job.