HBO's Westworld

[Cowpoke]

Hmmm... 2 timelines? So pretty much everything we watch that doesn't have William and Logan in it are from the same timeline, and William and Logan are flashbacks?

Well, mind blown. Though I did notice how intensely both TMIB and William both really see the park as a game to beat rather than a retreat or escape. Very similar personalities. Delores's flashbacks within the flashbacks seem a bit odd though.

 

[NeekReevers]

I listened to the "Decoding Westworld" podcast for the first time today....some really good stuff in there. One of the hosts now thinks there may be 3 timelines and that there may be more to Bernard than meets the eye.

 

[Been Jammin]

Interesting. I am trying to think of any conflict with the two timeline theory. The only thing that comes to mind is the "Wyatt" storyline. It is clearly new to the MIB, and recently created by the Ford he is talking to. Was there any discussion of Wyatt by Logan,/William or anyone they interacted with? Wasn't it Wyatt who killed Deloros' parents?

And there is definitely something insidious with Bernarc. He is clearly trying to make Deloros self aware and keep his actions secret.!

 

[CowboyJD]

Interesting. I am trying to think of any conflict with the two timeline theory. The only thing that comes to mind is the "Wyatt" storyline. It is clearly new to the MIB, and recently created by the Ford he is talking to. Was there any discussion of Wyatt by Logan,/William or anyone they interacted with? Wasn't it Wyatt who killed Deloros' parents?

And there is definitely something insidious with Bernarc. He is clearly trying to make Deloros self aware and keep his actions secret.!

I think Bernard is a self aware host/robot....basically recruiting for more like him.

 

[ells2090]

William and Logan's discussion about Arnold's "suicide" implied it was fairly recent and that the park was now in a cash freefall, which is different than the discussions with Ford where he says it was ~30 years ago. Also, seems like Lawrence was in 2 completely different narratives with William/Logan vs the MIB

 

[Cowpoke]

William and Logan's discussion about Arnold's "suicide" implied it was fairly recent and that the park was now in a cash freefall, which is different than the discussions with Ford where he says it was ~30 years ago. Also, seems like Lawrence was in 2 completely different narratives with William/Logan vs the MIB

I was going to go back and listen to that tonight, I couldn't remember if he spoke of it as if it was years ago or not. Agree on the Lawrence narrative, I thought that seemed odd when I watched it, but figured the freedom fighter narrative eventually led to the him getting caught one.

The only other tie across those timelines is Delores of course. She seems to be having flashbacks in both timelines which is confusing. She can also shoot guns in both timelines so either she overcame the programing twice, or they didn't have restrictions on that early on.

I've been wondering for a while if bernard isn't a very early, but advanced build by Ford. Ford seems to enjoy his time with his creations, so it would make sense that he made one a working partner. Is his family real then or just a simulation and the dead kid a backstory? I thought his reaction to the transponder was odd.

 

[JonnyVito]

Here is a thought what if Ford is a self aware host/ robot that was created by Arnold and he then got out of control and added stuff to the Westworld and Arnold was trying to stop him and Ford killed him?

 

[Been Jammin]

In last night's episode, tMIB threatened to cut open Ford and hinted that he might be a host. It may have just been a joke/veiled threat, but I don't think we can rule out that Ford is a host body with the original Ford's knowledge/memories.

 

[NeekReevers]

POTENTIAL SPOILERS FROM PODCAST.....In the podcast, they are basically in agreement that there are at least two timelines. The general thought is that one timeline takes place a few years after the park opens. This is the timeline that includes William and Logan. The theory is that Logan's family invests a huge sum in the park to save it. William eventually becomes TMIB and is one of the largest shareholders in the company which is why he is basically allowed to do as he pleases in the park. The second timeline takes place with old Anthony Hopkins and TMIB. An additional theory one of the hosts of the podcast added was that Bernard is actually an AI version of Arnold. Good stuff in the podcast. They are probably revealing some twists that I wouldn't have guessed but I can't resist listening.

 

[CowboyJD]

I was going to go back and listen to that tonight, I couldn't remember if he spoke of it as if it was years ago or not. Agree on the Lawrence narrative, I thought that seemed odd when I watched it, but figured the freedom fighter narrative eventually led to the him getting caught one.

The only other tie across those timelines is Delores of course. She seems to be having flashbacks in both timelines which is confusing. She can also shoot guns in both timelines so either she overcame the programing twice, or they didn't have restrictions on that early on.

I've been wondering for a while if bernard isn't a very early, but advanced build by Ford. Ford seems to enjoy his time with his creations, so it would make sense that he made one a working partner. Is his family real then or just a simulation and the dead kid a backstory? I thought his reaction to the transponder was odd.

I think first gen Delores didn't have the restriction against shooting firearms. That was programmed in her after the robot revolt and Bernard is working on reprogramming it away again.

 

[FMPoke]

I think first gen Delores didn't have the restriction against shooting firearms. That was programmed in her after the robot revolt and Bernard is working on reprogramming it away again.

My understanding was the robots could always kill other robots somehow the guns just would kill humans. Dolores individual story was what made her the damsel in distress. What's she developing is an alternative personality. What's make it so confusing is apparently she developed this 30 years ago and after the revolt all that was wiped from her memory but Ford and Bernard are bring it back up again.

 

[hollywood]

It took me a while, but I figured out that there were two different timelines being shown simultaneously. The light bulb went off when I was trying to reconcile how TMIB could be traveling with (and subsequently bleeding out) Lawrence to save Teddy, while William and Logan were with the same host, then operating under the identity of El Lazo in Pariah.

I'm working on the assumption at this point, that Logan actually ends up getting killed by a host that's gone "haywire." As a result, William does go "black hat" and through his position with the family's "company" who has invested in the Delos/Westworld Park gets unfettered access to the park. (William's fiance/wife is Logan's sister.) The references to events that happened 30+ yrs ago, could not only refer to Arnold's death, but something that happened in the park that Delos covered up, which could logically lead to a conclusion a host(s) doing something that directly lead to the death of a park patron.

So whatever initial "affection" William/TMIB had for Doloros, he comes crashing to his senses and now recognizes the "hosts" as anything but human and thus has no moral qualms about doing anything he wants to them. But also believes that Arnold created something much deeper within the park (the ultimate easter egg?) and he's trying to crack that part of the mystery that will lead him to the maze and the answers he's looking for.

 

[FMPoke]

It took me a while, but I figured out that there were two different timelines being shown simultaneously. The light bulb went off when I was trying to reconcile how TMIB could be traveling with (and subsequently bleeding out) Lawrence to save Teddy, while William and Logan were with the same host, then operating under the identity of El Lazo in Pariah.

I'm working on the assumption at this point, that Logan actually ends up getting killed by a host that's gone "haywire." As a result, William does go "black hat" and through his position with the family's "company" who has invested in the Delos/Westworld Park gets unfettered access to the park. (William's fiance/wife is Logan's sister.) The references to events that happened 30+ yrs ago, could not only refer to Arnold's death, but something that happened in the park that Delos covered up, which could logically lead to a conclusion a host(s) doing something that directly lead to the death of a park patron.

So whatever initial "affection" William/TMIB had for Doloros, he comes crashing to his senses and now recognizes the "hosts" as anything but human and thus has no moral qualms about doing anything he wants to them. But also believes that Arnold created something much deeper within the park (the ultimate easter egg?) and he's trying to crack that part of the mystery that will lead him to the maze and the answers he's looking for.

The one big missing link is TMIB attitude toward Deloros. It appears he murders her family and rapes her on a yearly basis expressing disappointment when Daddy gives it up too easy this time. William clearly is attractive to and protective of Deloros. Is it just the general journey to the dark side of William or does Deloros do something to betray him and cause his to blame her for Logan's death. Maybe even the death of his fiancé? We know Deloros was there at Arnolds death.

 

[Been Jammin]

The one big missing link is TMIB attitude toward Deloros. It appears he murders her family and rapes her on a yearly basis expressing disappointment when Daddy gives it up too easy this time. William clearly is attractive to and protective of Deloros. Is it just the general journey to the dark side of William or does Deloros do something to betray him and cause his to blame her for Logan's death. Maybe even the death of his fiancé? We know Deloros was there at Arnolds death.

Does he rape her? All we have seen is him drag her into the barn, close the door and pull out a knife. I'm betting he is cutting into her and looking for something important.

 

[Been Jammin]

The 2 timeline thing explains something that I was wondering about.

In the first episode, when Teddy tries to shoot TMIB, nothing happens. TMIB doesn't die. No bullets hit him. It is like Teddy is firing blanks.

When William first arrived, he was shot by a criminal. The bullet knocked him over and left a red mark on his shoulder.

It now appears that in the earlier timeline, guests could be shot, but technology made it more like being shot with a bean bag than a bullet. I'm guessing the hosts had thinner skin and the same projectile could tear right through them. In the later timeline, the technology has changed.. I'm guessing that the guns fire blanks when pointed at a guest but fire bullets when pointed at a host.

 

[Cowpoke]

I had my characters backwards, I figured it was Logan that was TMIB. Personalities match, and both see it as a game to conquer. William does look much more like the MIB though. I'm guessing his treatment of delores is due to her being the first to revolt or the leader of the revolt. Also, he obviously sees her as a humanish now, but once he sees them as robots he may treat them as such.

My only issue with the two timelines is Delores flashing back to TMIB in the barn before shooting her rapist, and then stumbling into Will and Logan afterwards. But they could be separate incidents as Logan points out that her stumbling into them was probably controlled by the staff, who watches their every move. I thought that was really odd because we've seen that the staff seems to barely know whats going on in he park, certainly not paying close enough attention to set up Delores to meet them. It may be in the earlier timeline the staff running the park had a much closer interaction with every little thing, whereas now they seem to be understaffed and barely interact with it until after something odd happens.

 

[FMPoke]

Does he rape her? All we have seen is him drag her into the barn, close the door and pull out a knife. I'm betting he is cutting into her and looking for something important.

The comment about being disappointed with her father giving it up easy makes it seem that way. Seems like he played the scene out multiple time.

 

[Been Jammin]

I had my characters backwards, I figured it was Logan that was TMIB. Personalities match, and both see it as a game to conquer. William does look much more like the MIB though. I'm guessing his treatment of delores is due to her being the first to revolt or the leader of the revolt. Also, he obviously sees her as a humanish now, but once he sees them as robots he may treat them as such.

My only issue with the two timelines is Delores flashing back to TMIB in the barn before shooting her rapist, and then stumbling into Will and Logan afterwards. But they could be separate incidents as Logan points out that her stumbling into them was probably controlled by the staff, who watches their every move. I thought that was really odd because we've seen that the staff seems to barely know whats going on in he park, certainly not paying close enough attention to set up Delores to meet them. It may be in the earlier timeline the staff running the park had a much closer interaction with every little thing, whereas now they seem to be understaffed and barely interact with it until after something odd happens.

On your first point... I think the key is the conversation that TMIB had with the guest he ran into. The guest said something about being a big fan and stated that TMIB's foundation saved his sister's life (or something like that). That would be more in line with William's personality than Logan. TMIB is clearly a good person in the outside world but he comes to WW to play bad guy and to try to solve the riddle that Ford/Arnold inserted into the game.

Good point bout Delores and her flashbacks. I would say that she has likely been "raped" hundreds/thousands of times over the years. If they show her flashing back and adjusting course, then show her showing up at the William/Logan campsite, the two scenes do not necessarily happen in chronological order.

 

[Cowpoke]

Good point bout Delores and her flashbacks. I would say that she has likely been "raped" hundreds/thousands of times over the years. If they show her flashing back and adjusting course, then show her showing up at the William/Logan campsite, the two scenes do not necessarily happen in chronological order.

Yeah exactly, thats why I finally figured out. I'm guessing her stumbling into that campsite is actually a part of her loop. At the time I thought it was due to her getting off track after having TMIB flashback and shooting the dude....but it may be that after being raped in her normal loop she then stumbles around to that campsite (which is a preplanned loop itself) and she then travels along that path to the shootout and capture of the dude that tells them about Pariah and then that's an available path for Delores to go down. Thats why she sees herself there, she's been there hundreds of times. Makes sense now that it seems as though stumbling into the camp/tagging along with them isn't due to a malfunction, but rather the loop she's been on for decades.

That also explains another issue I always had, her loop seemed so short and trivial while others seem like they would take several days. It seems like having loops with different timelines would cause issues. But her's seems pretty long as well now.

The only thing I don't like about this is we haven't seen what is causing Delores's malfunction in the early timeline. We have all sorts of hints for the later one.

 

[Been Jammin]

The only thing I don't like about this is we haven't seen what is causing Delores's malfunction in the early timeline. We have all sorts of hints for the later one.

Well, we do know that she was present when Arnold died/committed suicide/staged his death (or whatever happened to him). It also appears that he is still talking to her (or someone else is). So, her malfunction in the early timeline is likely due to something Arnold implanted into her coding or a device he implanted somewhere in her body.

It will be interesting to see what happens to Logan. Maybe he is still alive in the later timeline and is behind whoever is uploading information from the hosts to a satellite.

 

[JonnyVito]

Did you guys not notice Logan smirk when William turned his back on him?

 

[NeekReevers]

Did you guys not notice Logan smirk when William turned his back on him?

I think that was Logan enjoying the fact that William was becoming a prick like him.

I'm curious to see how bad Logan will be hurt. It looked like they were roughing him up pretty good.

 

[JonnyVito]

I think that was Logan enjoying the fact that William was becoming a prick like him.

I'm curious to see how bad Logan will be hurt. It looked like they were roughing him up pretty good.

I also thought that next weeks preview (maybe I missed this discussed here) showed Logan in the rooms like the host when they do the review on them or whatever its called. I took it that Logan was really a host.

 

[Cowpoke]

I also thought that next weeks preview (maybe I missed this discussed here) showed Logan in the rooms like the host when they do the review on them or whatever its called. I took it that Logan was really a host.

Havn't seen the preview of next week. Was it Logan or the safe robber dude? They look a ton alike.

 

[JonnyVito]

Havn't seen the preview of next week. Was it Logan or the safe robber dude? They look a ton alike.

Crap now I have to go back and check.

 

[Been Jammin]

Pretty sure it was the safe robber dude.

 

[davidallen]

The greyhound story to start EP5 - just now catching up - is significant. Someone let the greyhound off its leash and it ran, "most beautiful thing I ever saw", until it caught the cat and killed it - that dog spent its whole life trying to catch that thing and then it had no idea what to do...

 

[NeekReevers]

The greyhound story to start EP5 - just now catching up - is significant. Someone let the greyhound off its leash and it ran, "most beautiful thing I ever saw", until it caught the cat and killed it - that dog spent its whole life trying to catch that thing and then it had no idea what to do...

Do you think this is referring to the hosts becoming self aware, TMIB finding the center of the maze...or both?

 

[davidallen]

Do you think this is referring to the hosts becoming self aware, TMIB finding the center of the maze...or both?

Delores is the greyhound if I had to bet now... She is reaching self-awareness in the earlier timeline. Likely cliffhanger at end of season will be her showing up in the later timeline.

 

[Been Jammin]

Delores is the greyhound if I had to bet now... She is reaching self-awareness in the earlier timeline. Likely cliffhanger at end of season will be her showing up in the later timeline.

We have already seen her in the later timeline. When she talks to Bernard or Ford, that is the later timeline. When she interacts with TMIB that is the later timeline...

 

[davidallen]

We have already seen her in the later timeline. When she talks to Bernard or Ford, that is the later timeline. When she interacts with TMIB that is the later timeline...

Thinking in world later timeline, I had forgotten that she had interacted with TMIB in a previous episode... but hey who knows at this point!

 

[FMPoke]

The greyhound story to start EP5 - just now catching up - is significant. Someone let the greyhound off its leash and it ran, "most beautiful thing I ever saw", until it caught the cat and killed it - that dog spent its whole life trying to catch that thing and then it had no idea what to do...

He talking to Delores. She's clearly the greyhound. As we've seen she runs the exact same loop every rotation. Wakes up, goes down stairs, have same conversation with Dad, go to town, bumps into Teddy . . . Now he's letting her off the leach. It's a be careful what you ask for warning. It also tells you about how he views this whole world as some kind of experience that exists mainly for his experimentation and amusement.

 

[FMPoke]

Good episode two quick takeaways. First it appear Arnold is clearly arrive and possibly living at the center of the maze. Secondly when Bernard went down to the basement (and this place has a lot of basements) to the old abandoned lab I thought I saw a brief shot of the Yul Brynner gunfighter standing in the shadows.

 

[Cowpoke]

Good episode two quick takeaways. First it appear Arnold is clearly arrive and possibly living at the center of the maze. Secondly when Bernard went down to the basement (and this place has a lot of basements) to the old abandoned lab I thought I saw a brief shot of the Yul Brynner gunfighter standing in the shadows.

Yeah that was definitely a nod to the old movie there.

 

[Been Jammin]

Good episode two quick takeaways. First it appear Arnold is clearly arrive and possibly living at the center of the maze. Secondly when Bernard went down to the basement (and this place has a lot of basements) to the old abandoned lab I thought I saw a brief shot of the Yul Brynner gunfighter standing in the shadows.

I know I am being ultra picky here...but....

I thought it was strange that the oldest levels of the underground complex was deeper in the earth than the newer levels. Let's say they started building WW 50 years ago. The reasons for developing the underground complex are obvious (just like there is an extensive underground complex at Disney World). But, why would they build it any deeper than they needed to go? That requires a lot of extra moving of earth and a lot of extra time getting people/hosts to and from the surface.

Like I said. I know I am being ultra picky. I just thought it would have made more sense if Bernard had taken a subway car to the old facility instead of an elevator.

 

[Cowpoke]

I know I am being ultra picky here...but....

I thought it was strange that the oldest levels of the underground complex was deeper in the earth than the newer levels. Let's say they started building WW 50 years ago. The reasons for developing the underground complex are obvious (just like there is an extensive underground complex at Disney World). But, why would they build it any deeper than they needed to go? That requires a lot of extra moving of earth and a lot of extra time getting people/hosts to and from the surface.

Like I said. I know I am being ultra picky. I just thought it would have made more sense if Bernard had taken a subway car to the old facility instead of an elevator.

Would seem to make structural sense, constantly digging through the floors you are living on, and rebuilding foundation each time seems really wasteful. Also why do we think it wasn't all built at once? The lower levels were abandoned first but were they built much earlier?

 

[Been Jammin]

Would seem to make structural sense, constantly digging through the floors you are living on, and rebuilding foundation each time seems really wasteful. Also why do we think it wasn't all built at once? The lower levels were abandoned first but were they built much earlier?

So, you are saying that maybe they built all of the levels and chose to occupy the deepest ones first and gradually move upward as they needed more space? I still think that seems strange considering transit time to and from the surface. Considering what they are doing and how often hosts/employees need to be moved from the park to the facility and back to the park. The network of tunnels obviously extends laterally throughout the majority of the park since we have seen Bernard and Elsie take elevators to the surface in various locations. It would seem more likely that they would build a sprawling underground facility and expand laterally as more space is needed.

But, now that I think about it, any future construction would be a problem as bringing in large equipment for digging would disrupt the look/activities on the surface. So, maybe it does make more sense that they would build all of the space they could envision needing (now and in the future) below the surface. I would still think that the main control center would always remain as close to the surface as possible.

 

[Cowpoke]

I think that they needed the entire facility very early on. But there has been significant staff reductions since then.

 

[Been Jammin]

I think that they needed the entire facility very early on. But there has been significant staff reductions since then.

That would make sense. Improved efficiency. Newer technology. No need for as much space.

 

[Cowpoke]

That would make sense. Improved efficiency. Newer technology. No need for as much space.

Yeah and I'm guessing if the 2 timeline theory is true, then after the 1st revolt there were massive layoffs.. Was Delos involved from the beginning or did they take over after the 1st uprising? I'm guessing they gutted the place to save costs. Logan mentioned to William that the people running the park watched every move and customized the story to how they were acting... we know that is no longer the case. The park operators barely know whats happening in the park now, let alone paying attention to every move to fulfil the guests desires.

Speaking of Delos.... Is this what Logan and William were representatives of? They wanted to invest, did they end up buying the park at some point? Did they name Delos after Delores? Is that why TMIB is always there? He owns it, enjoys the free access? Ford seemed to create the whole Wyatt storyline for him.