GOT 4

[Been Jammin]

You are entitled to your opinion.

From what I know of you, you seem to be an intelligent individual. I suspect that if you were to sit down and binge watch the series, you would find yourself noticing a significant quality difference in Season 1-4 v. the rest of the series. It is possible that you are not appreciating just how good the initial 4 seasons were. HBO did a fantastic job of bringing the books to the screen. They used some of GRRM's best dialogue, and made some changes (for the better) to some of his scenes/narrative.

Since running out of book material to lean on, the show has been poorly handled, IMO. Granted, they didn't have an easy task, and they are clearly doing something right based on the ratings. It could have been so much more, though.

As an aside to this post...

One of my favorite changes, that HBO made, was putting the Moon Door, in the floor of the Eyrie. In the books, the door was in a wall and Lysa was trying to push Sansa out of the door when Littlefinger stopped Lysa and pushed her out the door. In HBO's version, having a big hole in the floor made for a much more suspenseful scene. They also incorporated it into the scene with Bronn fighting Lysa's champion (Sir Vardis Egen). In the books, there was no hole in the floor during the fight. Having it there really added a lot and made for a great conclusion when Lsya says, "You don't fight with honor, sir" and Bronn responds, "He did" and kicks Sir Vardis' body out of the hole. One of my favorite scenes from the entire series, with fantastic dialogue. Proof that HBO is capable of doing great things without leaning on GRRM.

Maybe that bodes well for the spin off, since they will mostly be starting from scratch.

 

[FMPoke]

I think it can be both. I still enjoy watching it as much as anything ever on TV. At the same time, it is not great when 3 or 4 times an episode you are are thinking this makes absolutely no sense. It went from a really tightly written to show to a series of plot points. In the rush to the end the writers no longer show their work.

I don't know what the alternative is though. You can't have a 15 season show. It is what it is. I just hope Martin finishes the story so we can have both experiences.

This is basically where I'm at. I still enjoy the show but as we have documented on the board it has more and more lapses. In all fairness they are fighting more then just getting past the sources material. Like with all great shows the uniqueness and newness wears off after about five years. With this show in particular the books grew so complicated with so many characters and sub plots it was impossible to incorporate it all in a TV show. There were additional budget problems with the actors commending more money and more and more CGI and big budget battle scenes as the years went by. They had to make compromises i.e. the direwolfs. As we've seen with The Sopranos, Lost and other shows it hard to wrap a story like this up in a neat tidy package that's going to meet viewers expectations.

I appreciate the show for what it is. It has the best CGI and special effects of any TV show I've ever seen. Great storyline and great characters. Even if the dialogue isn't what it once was and they play fast and loose with the timeline its still the best thing currently on TV to me.

 

[PDT816]

As a reader of the series dating back decades and not just when the series started, the show is exponentially better than the books on just about every front.

Until GRRM finishes the story, the show will still be better than the show. Considering he has never shown he can conclude a storyline, it's safe to assume he's not sure how to wrap things up - something he has a history of issues with the books.

 

[Been Jammin]

As a reader of the series dating back decades and not just when the series started, the show is exponentially better than the books on just about every front.

 

[JonnyVito]

So baby dragons.... I love reddit users.

 

[nathajw]

So baby dragons.... I love reddit users.

Did you just drop a leaked episode spoiler or something?

 

[JonnyVito]

Did you just drop a leaked episode spoiler or something?

No those people on reddit have thought of every possible outcome from watching the preview of next weeks episode. One person thinks when Drogon was gone in season 5 that she was laying eggs and that Eurons surprise will be an army of new dragons. I swear HBO should have got those guys for writers or hell GRRm should hire them to finish the books. I have read some crazy theories over there the last couple days.

 

[FMPoke]

No those people on reddit have thought of every possible outcome from watching the preview of next weeks episode. One person thinks when Drogon was gone in season 5 that she was laying eggs and that Eurons surprise will be an army of new dragons. I swear HBO should have got those guys for writers or hell GRRm should hire them to finish the books. I have read some crazy theories over there the last couple days.

I guess I haven't been paying attention. I thought all three Dragons were male.

Seriously breaking out an army of new dragons without even a hint for eight years would be a complete jump of the shark.

 

[JonnyVito]

I guess I haven't been paying attention. I thought all three Dragons were male.

Seriously breaking out an army of new dragons without even a hint for eight years would be a complete jump of the shark.

I think I even read a theory that was all Jurassic Park where they can change sexes.

 

[SouthWestOKPoke]

I think I even read a theory that was all Jurassic Park where they can change sexes.

From The World of Ice and Fire:

Reproduction
Historians, like Septon Barth, Grand Maester Munkun, and Maester Thomax, disagree on the mating habits of dragons.[26] Dragons lay large, scaled eggs to reproduce.[27] According to Archmaester Gyldayn, and agreed upon by Maester Yandel, the ability of a dragon to lay eggs is proof that said dragon is female. When a dragon is never observed to have laid eggs, this is taking as proof that it must have been male.[28] However, according to Barth and Maester Aemon, dragons have no fixed gender, but are “now one and now the other, as changeable as flame”.[27]Barth believed that dragons can change sex at need,[28][27] but Maester Anson believes this to be erroneous, and states in his Truth that Barth's statement is simply a misunderstood esoteric metaphor.[28]

 

[CowboyPhil]

I've been re-watching the series with my wife and I don't remember the sex of the dragons even being mentioned in the show. I have no clue on the books as I haven't read them.

 

[3putt]

So baby dragons.... I love reddit users.

Cersei asked Euron if he was sure the dragon was dead. That is almost always a "Not so fast" moment. Couple that with Euron looking into the sky and gets a surprised look on his face. I am expecting him to be looking at more than one dragon. Now whether that means Rhaegal is still alive or there are more dragons is the question. I'm betting it is Rhaegal. Or I could be completely wrong.

 

[Been Jammin]

Cersei asked Euron if he was sure the dragon was dead. That is almost always a "Not so fast" moment. Couple that with Euron looking into the sky and gets a surprised look on his face. I am expecting him to be looking at more than one dragon. Now whether that means Rhaegal is still alive or there are more dragons is the question. I'm betting it is Rhaegal. Or I could be completely wrong.

I know that the conversation made us go "hmmmmn", but there is no way Rhaegal could have survived that damage. One bolt buried in his chest and another through his neck with an explosion of blood on the other side. Follow all of that up with him disappearing beneath the surface of the ocean. If HBO brings him back from that, it will be the moment they jumped the shark while jumping the shark.

 

[3putt]

I know that the conversation made us go "hmmmmn", but there is no way Rhaegal could have survived that damage. One bolt buried in his chest and another through his neck with an explosion of blood on the other side. Follow all of that up with him disappearing beneath the surface of the ocean. If HBO brings him back from that, it will be the moment they jumped the shark while jumping the shark.

Totally agree if they do that it will be a jump the shark moment. I really hope they don't. No way he should have survived that. I just have a feeling she will show up with more than one dragon.

 

[JonnyVito]

Totally agree if they do that it will be a jump the shark moment. I really hope they don't. No way he should have survived that. I just have a feeling she will show up with more than one dragon.

Ya baby dragons they mixed the DNA with toads man.

 

[blbronco]

Some of you guys seem like you would be miserable to watch anything with. Comparing the books and their story telling to the series is not overly fair. How long did GRRM have to write the stories that have already been covered versus the amount of time the show writers have had to finish the story? As pointed out, what has GRRM finished? Those of you complaining about the series would lose your minds if the show did not wrap things up like GRRM has failed to.

I am still entertained watching the series without trying to challenge all the physics of it. I thought ep 4 did what it needed to. Allowed some rest after ep 3 while still moving the story forward. Dany has proven that she is impatient, thus making stupid mistakes. Irrational as they are, all decisions do not have to be great (which makes it more believable).

 

[Air_Thurman]

Some of you guys seem like you would be miserable to watch anything with. Comparing the books and their story telling to the series is not overly fair. How long did GRRM have to write the stories that have already been covered versus the amount of time the show writers have had to finish the story? As pointed out, what has GRRM finished? Those of you complaining about the series would lose your minds if the show did not wrap things up like GRRM has failed to.

I am still entertained watching the series without trying to challenge all the physics of it. I thought ep 4 did what it needed to. Allowed some rest after ep 3 while still moving the story forward. Dany has proven that she is impatient, thus making stupid mistakes. Irrational as they are, all decisions do not have to be great (which makes it more believable).

I do agree that the books vs show debates get old. Like me and a lot of others have said we still enjoy the show. That being said I think a lot of the complaints don't have anything to do with the books. Euron the magic sniper with a telaporting fleet of ships isn't a problem because of the books. It is just bad TV writing. The Jaime, Tyrion and Bronn stuff was really, really bad. Things can be entertaining as a whole but still have moments that are terrible.

 

[Been Jammin]

I do agree that the books vs show debates get old. Like me and a lot of others have said we still enjoy the show. That being said I think a lot of the complaints don't have anything to do with the books. Euron the magic sniper with a telaporting fleet of ships isn't a problem because of the books. It is just bad TV writing. The Jaime, Tyrion and Bronn stuff was really, really bad. Things can be entertaining as a whole but still have moments that are terrible.

This.

I'm very interested to see if Euron says anything to Cersei about Tyrion knowing about her pregnancy.

Good writing would lead to him saying. "wait, you told me that I was the father, but Tyrion hasn't been in KL for months. If he knows about your pregnancy, then you lied to me" He might then turn against her or just say "F this" and leave to head back to Essos. That would be good writing that makes sense, where the writers laid the ground work, nursed the narrative, and provided the viewer with a payoff.

Bad writing would be him not even noticing/commenting on Tyrion knowing about the pregnancy.

This scenario has nothing to do with the books other than that GRRM is good at shaping narrative and providing the reader with an eventual payoff, whereas HBO only does that about 50% of the time.

 

[SSS!!!]

Exactly. I’m fine w it being different from the books and little mistakes in the plot, but the last season and a half have been filled w such glaring plot holes, non-believable story lines and character assassinations that it’s really hard to get over.

 

[Been Jammin]

Exactly. I’m fine w it being different from the books and little mistakes in the plot, but the last season and a half have been filled w such glaring plot holes, non-believable story lines and character assassinations that it’s really hard to get over.

The strange thing is that it doesn’t seem like it would be that hard to not make a lot of mistakes they have made.

Just ask...would X decision be consistent with what we have established for character Y?

But, I’m sure there are many factors I can’t even fathom.

 

[SSS!!!]

The strange thing is that it doesn’t seem like it would be that hard to not make a lot of mistakes they have made.

Just ask...would X decision be consistent with what we have established for character Y?

But, I’m sure there are many factors I can’t even fathom.

Yeah, don’t get me wrong, I know writing this show has to be one of the hardest shows to write, maybe in the history of TV. Between the complexity of the story and the hoards of fans dissecting every line, it’s almost impossible and I do not envy them at all. But things like the Bronn scene are just completely unnecessary and just wrong when it comes to his character. Anyone could see that.

 

[Been Jammin]

Yeah, don’t get me wrong, I know writing this show has to be one of the hardest shows to write, maybe in the history of TV. Between the complexity of the story and the hoards of fans dissecting every line, it’s almost impossible and I do not envy them at all. But things like the Bronn scene are just completely unnecessary and just wrong when it comes to his character. Anyone could see that.

Interesting that you brought that scene up. On the podcast I referenced above, the suggested that HBO might have contract obligations to the actor who plays Bronn, requiring X amount of on screen minutes, resulting in his silly story. That was what I was thinking of as an example of factors I can’t even fathom.

 

[JonnyVito]

Arya is wearing Bronns face

 

[FMPoke]

Interesting that you brought that scene up. On the podcast I referenced above, the suggested that HBO might have contract obligations to the actor who plays Bronn, requiring X amount of on screen minutes, resulting in his silly story. That was what I was thinking of as an example of factors I can’t even fathom.

I can't fathom that. No show has every killed off some many major characters. Can't believe HBO would commit to keep Bronn around. I actually don't think his current story is that silly or out of place I just think that scene was horrible done. Completely wrong tone and bad dialogue. I expect some kind of pay off the current Bronn arc probably to the point of him coming back to save either Jamie or Tyrion.

 

[The Duke]

Yeah, but you could have had a 10 or 11 season show like HBO wanted.

There’s no way these HBO writers with their box of crayons could ever fill even average dialogue for another 20 or 30 shows.

They gave them an extra full year to focus on six and we laugh at it every week

 

[Cowguy]

 

[Been Jammin]

I can't fathom that. No show has every killed off some many major characters. Can't believe HBO would commit to keep Bronn around. I actually don't think his current story is that silly or out of place I just think that scene was horrible done. Completely wrong tone and bad dialogue. I expect some kind of pay off the current Bronn arc probably to the point of him coming back to save either Jamie or Tyrion.

I'm not sure why they think his contract plays a role in their decisions, but they seemed to have some inside info. Either way, the point is that the writers likely have many not so obvious influences that affect their decisions. I'm not trying to make excuses for them because I still think they are shitty writers. Whatever complications they are dealing with are likely not so different from those that other writers have overcome on various TV shows in the past.

 

[SSS!!!]

Love it, although I’d switch 5 & 6. Other than Hardhome, Season 5 was a steaming pile of dogsh!t haha. Season 6 brought me back in as I almost stopped watching after 5. Easily the worst season IMO, especially considering they still had source material to work with.

 

[SouthWestOKPoke]

Love it, although I’d switch 5 & 6. Other than Hardhome, Season 5 was a steaming pile of dogsh!t haha. Season 6 brought me back in as I almost stopped watching after 5. Easily the worst season IMO, especially considering they still had source material to work with.

Thats the same for me. 5 is easily my least favorite season.

 

[blbronco]

I can't fathom that. No show has every killed off some many major characters. Can't believe HBO would commit to keep Bronn around. I actually don't think his current story is that silly or out of place I just think that scene was horrible done. Completely wrong tone and bad dialogue. I expect some kind of pay off the current Bronn arc probably to the point of him coming back to save either Jamie or Tyrion.

I don’t think it is about of line at all for Bronn. He has always been a mercenary. His last battle, he saw his colleagues burned by dragons. I imagine he simply wants out in the best, quickest, most profitable way possible.

 

[FMPoke]

I don’t think it is about of line at all for Bronn. He has always been a mercenary. His last battle, he saw his colleagues burned by dragons. I imagine he simply wants out in the best, quickest, most profitable way possible.

More then anything else he want's to make sure he gets paid regardless of who wins.

 

[Air_Thurman]

To me it doesn't even have anything to do with Bronn double crossing Tyrion. It is more that he just sauntered into Winterfell with his massive gold cross bow and five minutes later left like it was nothing.

 

[Been Jammin]

To me it doesn't even have anything to do with Bronn double crossing Tyrion. It is more that he just sauntered into Winterfell with his massive gold cross bow and five minutes later left like it was nothing.

so
much
dumb

 

[The Duke]

This is perfect.

 

[JonnyVito]

I have a theory. What if Cersei hates the people of Kings Landing and really wants them to all burn?

 

[Been Jammin]

I have a theory. What if Cersei hates the people of Kings Landing and really wants them to all burn?

She doesn’t care as long as she keeps the throne. KL would repopulate quickly.

 

[JonnyVito]

She doesn’t care as long as she keeps the throne. KL would repopulate quickly.

I meant to add that she really isn’t pregnant this really doesn’t care if she dies just wants to see KL burn.

 

[SSS!!!]

She doesn’t care as long as she keeps the throne. KL would repopulate quickly.

Exactly. She doesn’t necessarily want that to happen, but she proved w the Sept that she doesn’t care on way or the other as long as she’s on the throne. The Sept probably killed 1000s of people.

 

[SquinkY5786]

Yep I’m sticking to my Arya killing Dani. Only thing is now they are alluding to it so probably will be someone else

 

[JonnyVito]

Yep I’m sticking to my Arya killing Dani. Only thing is now they are alluding to it so probably will be someone else

She kills her to save Jon and Sansa