Explosions at Arianna Grande concert in UK
- Thread starter MegaPoke
- Start date
In this case it is ISIS was it not?
There remains the important question then of why in this hypothetical situation where the terrorist was ideologically identical to his parents why did the son become a terrorist and not the parents?
That kind of thinking is out there.
Would not be shocked if this eventually happens at least in Jerusalem.
What is the fundamental difference between some one fleeing Quadaffi and an immigrant?
I think it makes you uncomfortable to think that terrorism is a result of ideology that can't be stopped by border patrol.
“Abu Ismail will be terribly distraught. He was always very confrontational with jihadi ideology, and this Isis thing isn’t even jihad, it’s criminality.
“Abu Ismail comes and goes between here and there,” the family friend said. “I can’t believe [Salman Abedi] would have been radicalised in Tripoli. All those types have been driven out of the city. It must have happened here.
Whoever you are, if you hurt Harry I will find you.
This. If the advocates of restricting immigration weren't so bloodthirsty and ham fisted it would make for easier resolution. When Biff photo-ops and scowls into the camera and talks shit while signing an EO I don't intuitively trust him or the process. Someone posted on here that Obama just quietly restricted immigration from Iraq for a few months to get a handle on things. Just having some wisdom and a little political instinct and touch can handle some of these issues.
Pilt, the irony of all this is that Mega absolutely ripped me for posting too early after the pretty reporter got shot in the head by a guy on camera. It was wildly insensitive to politicize it.
Or the Imam down the street. The point is this kid was born in Britain, and the British lost the ideological battle for his mind to Wahabbist Islam.
The Libyan refugee from the 70s horse is out of the barn, you cant' put that toothpaste back in the tube. The only way to stop terrorism is to stop the spread of Wahabbist Islam.
Have you ever been to Jerusalem? The Dome of the Rock is a revered and sacred place there. When I was there, the Jewish people treated it with as much respect and reverence as the Wailing Wall.
The best way to encourage surrounding Arab countries to make good on past promises to wipe Israel off the map would be for Israel to destroy the Dome of the Rock.
Please don't drag me into your pissing match.
I understood, sympathized, and respected that his reaction came from a real place and backed off.
Hell, I even had a similar initial emotional reaction that I didn't disclose for fodder on the board. My way of dealing with those types of emotional responses is typically to compartmentalize, stuff the emotion away and focus on an intellectual analysis. That's probably not real healthy.
I didn't and wouldn't respond the way you continue to do. I specifically called you out for what you are doing.
Probably the dumbest post you've ever made IMO.
An immigrant in classical thought is someone who comes by their own choice. For instance, the two Iranians and the Saudi I work with left their countries specifically to leave behind Islamic government and the strict interpretation of the religion in general. Only one of the three still claims to practice Islam and he attends a Baptist church.
Refugees on the other hand are forced from their communities, generally by violence, and end up wherever they end up, usually dead broke and probably homesick. They may very well have zero desire to end up in a western country, but their boat was caught and now they're sitting in a detention center or refugee center waiting on placement somewhere in which they may have no choice. These are the folks that usually seek to find others of similar beliefs and culture and it's usually in a concentrated subset in a larger diverse population. There's evidence of this in every western country, including our own. That isn't a problem until that subset decides it is as we've seen in Europe.
The left has tried to blend the two into one narrative for political purposes. I'm too smart to buy the narrative because I know actual Muslim immigrants.
#1 - ISIS claimed responsibility but a link has not been determined.
#2 - Maybe dad talked the talk but didn't walk the walk. Apparently not much is known about the dad including where he is now (might be back in Libya again).
That one I made to BradSmith a while back was way dumber.
Say it with Mega "Anecdotal evidence."
I got it, so the Immigrants leave the the government and religion, and the refugees leave the violence caused by the government and religion. Immigrants convert to a different religion and disperse evenly through the population, and immigrant communities such as china town are actually just full of refugees who like to be together because they had a tough trip over.
I read this as you saying that you can't think of any solutions that you would support.
Can you think of solutions you would NOT support? Maybe we start from the hardest choice (planning stages) then walk it, massage it into something at least palatable.
ISIS would have claimed responsibility whether they were involved or not. ISIS has broad but likely indirect influence over young male Muslims living in the West imo. Did he meet some people affiliated with ISIS....likely. Did ISIS provide him assistance in building the bomb....maybe. Did ISIS directly oversee the plot and act...have my doubts. What struck me (and frankly terrified me regarding future attacks) from the article Jammin posted is that there appears to be a number of people living in the community referenced who believe terrorism is an Islamic calling and their duty as a devout Muslim. I do give ISIS some credit here. They have successfully globalized radical Islam and made the same attractive to young Muslim males. We have a mess on our hands.
Dang. You topped yourself in the same thread.
I didn't say all immigrants change religions, but they do seem to share a desire to live in a western society for whatever reason.
Now, to the dumbest of the dumb. What does Chinatown not have that a Muslim Libyan community in Manchester might have? Last time I checked the Asians aren't waging jihad against anyone. But carry on...
Whatever, it is not like pre-Gaddafi Libya was a hotbed for any type of radical Islamic terror.
Lots of speculation in this post. We do know that the fled Gaddafi who instituted Sharia law and who pushed out Western Influence. So it seems unlikely that the parents were Jihadis.
Or they are fleeing their country just like refugees only without the legal status. How many refugees do you know?
The point was that refugees and immigrants both seek to live in communities with people from their country.
Uhhhhhhhh, speaking of speculation...
You might want to brush up on Gaddafi and Libyan history.
Having taken power, Gaddafi converted Libya into a republic governed by his Revolutionary Command Council. Ruling by decree, he ejected both Italian colonists and Western military bases from Libya while strengthening ties to Arab nationalist governments—particularly Gamal Abdel Nasser's Egypt—and unsuccessfully advocating Pan-Arab political union. An Islamic modernist, he introduced sharia as the basis for the legal system and promoted "Islamic socialism". The oil industry was nationalised, with the increasing state revenues used to bolster the military, fund foreign revolutionaries, and implement social programs emphasising house-building, healthcare, and education projects. In 1973, he initiated a "Popular Revolution" with the formation of General People's Committees, purported to be a system of direct democracy, but retained personal control over major decisions. He outlined his Third International Theory that year, publishing these ideas in The Green Book.
What did I miss?
Holy hell, I won't catch up with this. Too much to read. Have safe zones been discussed? I'm a huge advocate of safe zones within the region. If you all really care that's what you should be advocating for. Not bringing them into here or European countries.
The most drastic option would be the deportation of anyone suspected of terrorist activities. Britain intel likely knows who the players are in these communities. There are all types of constitutional issues here as many of these "suspects" are citizens. It's a slippery slope which I wouldn't support due to the ramifications and likelyhood such power would be misused by a federal government not to mention the tendency of governments to expand their police powers to areas outside of the original intent of the action...see Patriot Act.
So we've established that immigrants and refugees might be different in their reasons for moving to a western society. Now, does that have an impact on assimilation?
There are areas in Europe right this very moment that aren't very hospitable to non-Muslims. We don't see that here, even in Dearborne. What is a likely cause for it to be happening in cities like Paris but not Dearborne? Could it be the rather large and sudden influx of refugees who've decided that they want a parallel Muslim society instead of an integrated one, possibly based on a desire for Sharia law and their homeland customs to be the proverbial lay of the new land? Strangely enough, what we don't find in Chinatown is a desire for a parallel society based on Buddhist law.
I know this is tough, but I think we're finally getting somewhere.
I don't think that has been established at all.
Different conceptions of national identity.
I doubt it since the sudden influx is still mostly in camps not living in established neighborhoods in Paris. Oddly enough the US is home to more refugees.
Most (if not all) of these "No-go" zones are in immigrant communities not refugee communities.
No discussing the distinction between refugee/immigrant terror vs homegrown. Did I misquote you?
The part of Libya actually not being ruled under Sharia law and instead ruled by Gaddafi's own brand of secular what the dictator says goes, kind of like Saddam Hussein. Islamification, if it could ever be called that under Gaddafi, was largely abandoned in 1974 after he abolished the dual court system and replaced it with a single court system that was quite secular.
Now of particular interest to you will be the Declaration of the Establishment of the People's Authority. It established that Gaddafi was head of all things representing people and was the birth of Gaddafi brand socialism. People didn't leave Libya because it was too Islamic. The people that left Libya did so because Gaddafi took their shit which was considered not Islamic. Gaddafi was frequently the butt of criticism and ridicule in the Arab world because of his own "interpretations" of Islam.
I'll stand by my previous statement that you need to brush up on Gaddafi and Libyan history. Cuba and Libya were literally the same thing. Iran, Saudi, Pakistan, Yemen, Afghanistan, nothing like Libya.
No, it was in the context of Mega's initial statement, reaction and declination to engage in that discussion.
No you did not misquote me.
I did not say you misquoted me.
I asked you to not drag me into your pissing match.
I didn't you just happened to have the perfect response to:
"Well, you've sold me. It's a super important distinction that this particular Muslim who blew up children was not a refugee himself. It now makes me feel all warm and fuzzy that I don't have to worry about terrorist attacks from refugees until their children grow up. Let's bring a bunch of them into our welcoming arms."
Next time I'll attribute it to anonymous.
In this case, if you can't see the gray area, that it could be "homegrown" from the Libyan community in Manchester rather than YouTube videos, you're just clinging to something ideological that doesn't want to see that as a possibility. At this point, anything is possible in this current situation. Much like Russia!Trump!, it has to be investigated for answers to be known. I'll bet the authorities have the siblings and parents high on their list of folks to check out. It sounds like they may have already arrested his brother.
So, you admit you got the Islamic part of Libya wrong or you're going to double down on being wrong? You did post this which is very easily refuted by facts (I did it in summary form because I'm not being paid to teach you Libyan history).
It obviously was homegrown in an Islamic community, and YouTube is just an example how ideology can cross closed borders. We can't go back in time and stop Libyans from going to the UK, and there are Muslim communities across the West. The point I'm driving at is that even if closed borders are necessary they clearly aren't sufficient.
I've been looking forward to this misrepresentation. There is no irony at all, nor is this remotely comparable to your post back then which specifically called me and others out because you knew we were pro 2nd A. Nice try - that tread was another installment of sys and pilt's greatest hits.
