Our culture is the cause. But the countries with far less guns have far less mass shootings. This will cause gun sales to rise. The NRA loves this. I am a gun owner and serious hunter but do not believe the extremist position of the NRA.
Active shooter now 20 plus injured in Florida school
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Not disagreeing with you at all, we live in a shitty world and it keeps getting worse. My wife and I are expecting our first child at the end of May. I wish these things would quit happening. I don't know the answer to fixing it and will not pretend to know.
But I do know GUNS aren't the issue. Do I think we need stricter gun laws, I don't know. Ban guns? Hell no. Why punish 99% of gun users for 1% of the bad apples.
See below for my original post on this topic in this thread, educate yourself. This man served under Obama, not that this should matter. Defend hoops if you will, or attack for me for pointing out clear hypocritical BS.
Making this political about guns will not resolve this.
On a trip Back from Belgium to the US on a leg to Washington D.C. from Brussels I sat next to the #2 ranking person in the Department of Education for the US, this was about 4 years ago. We had a bunch of time and we shared ideas on education. I asked him about school shootings, he looked like he was starting to sweat, rubbed his hands over his face and hair several times, look concerned, took a deep breath and sat back deep in to his chair. He was silent for a second. He said that this was a REALLY complicated issue and that the psychology behind this is understood but really, really, complex with several contributing factors. He said that this was a really long conversation and he said politely not one he wanted to get in to because of just how complex the issue is.
He did not say it was a bullet or gun issue, neither did he say it was not. But he made it very CLEAR, it was a very complicated issue that involved the psychology behind why a young adult decides to kill other young adults. He also said it was going to be very difficult to stop based on our current culture, parenting, changes in involvement in churches, school pressures, peer pressure, bullying, how life is valued today, teachers lack of ability to control a class room and parent today, etc... He said there is a reason we did not see this back in the 50's like we do today.
Again, I’m willing to consider actual ideas that could lower senseless shootings. I’ve not heard a single one, ever, and certain not not in this thread.
I own 1 gun, a handgun. I’m not even a gun guy. It’s not really my thing. That said, I’m not in favor of adding layers of laws on top of ones in place that are intended to do something already.
87 school shootings since Trump took office. What's the magic number for him?
I taught in public schools for 41 years and you bet your fukin ass this bothers me and the typical bull shit response. If the USA is the greatest country in the world why can't we protect our kids.
If the Koch brothers or Mercers had family shot today the National
guard would be called out and guns confiscated.
I taught in public schools for 41 years and you bet your fukin ass this bothers me and the typical bull shit response. If the USA is the greatest country in the world why can't we protect our kids.
If the Koch brothers or Mercers had family shot today the National
guard would be called out and guns confiscated.
I hope someone you love isn’t brutally murdered by an illegal immigrant. If so, would you change our stance on immigration?
The "Do nothing because someone will always find a way" stance is so idiotic. That's like saying we should let all 12 year old's drive because a 12 year old in Georgia stole his mom's car. "Look 12 year olds are always going to find a way to operate a motorized vehicle, so we might as well not control it".
Gun control doesnt work?
How many mass shootings have been done with fully automatic weapons?
How many with hand grenades, rocket launchers, C4?
Those things would be much more effective in killing large groups of people, yet they aren't used. Why? Because they are very tightly controlled, difficult to get, and expensive. Gun/weapon control has worked very effectively in those cases. Are there work arounds to create less effective versions of these? Sure, but most mass murderers don't put that effort into it. They just grab what is convenient.
The reason gun control doesn't work in other areas are because many of the controls are simple fluff that have a ton of loopholes.
This is BOTH a mental health/changing society issue AND a "its too easy for kids to get guns" issue. Both areas need to be looked into. Kids are just disconnected from humanity these days and its pretty disturbing to think what that means when that generation gets older.
Its not about violent video games.....its about video games in general. They are so immersive now that they completely suck you into realities that are far more exciting than the real one. You spend 6 hours a day building up your own characters ability to shoot, run, fly, do magic etc so that you can scale mountains, adventure on foreign planets, hunt 70 foot tall monsters, rob banks, etc etc, then you put down the controller and you are just a skinny kid who has to eat some potatos and do math homework, then ride a bus to sit in a classroom and listen to a teacher teach you boring shit with other kids who are just as bored and just as uninterested in the real world. The real world and real humans become so flat and uninteresting that they are nearly meaningless to some kids.
Gun control doesnt work?
How many mass shootings have been done with fully automatic weapons?
How many with hand grenades, rocket launchers, C4?
Those things would be much more effective in killing large groups of people, yet they aren't used. Why? Because they are very tightly controlled, difficult to get, and expensive. Gun/weapon control has worked very effectively in those cases. Are there work arounds to create less effective versions of these? Sure, but most mass murderers don't put that effort into it. They just grab what is convenient.
The reason gun control doesn't work in other areas are because many of the controls are simple fluff that have a ton of loopholes.
This is BOTH a mental health/changing society issue AND a "its too easy for kids to get guns" issue. Both areas need to be looked into. Kids are just disconnected from humanity these days and its pretty disturbing to think what that means when that generation gets older.
Its not about violent video games.....its about video games in general. They are so immersive now that they completely suck you into realities that are far more exciting than the real one. You spend 6 hours a day building up your own characters ability to shoot, run, fly, do magic etc so that you can scale mountains, adventure on foreign planets, hunt 70 foot tall monsters, rob banks, etc etc, then you put down the controller and you are just a skinny kid who has to eat some potatos and do math homework, then ride a bus to sit in a classroom and listen to a teacher teach you boring shit with other kids who are just as bored and just as uninterested in the real world. The real world and real humans become so flat and uninteresting that they are nearly meaningless to some kids.
We need mental health. We need different methods of teaching people respect for others and to NEVER do the unthinkable. We need guards in schools and other public places. We may need a lot of things.
I vehemently disagree with abortion, but I am resigned to the fact that Roe vs. Wade aint going anywhere, so I gave up the fight and believe the resources need to be applied to education.
Those of you wanting all guns banned are in the same boat. It's never going to happen, so give up the fight and take it somewhere you can make a positive change....education.
If it is not guns, it will be bombs. If it is not bombs, it will be very large trucks. If it is not very large trucks, it will be airplanes. A person with the proclivity to do harm will do harm, so we need to find out ways to reduce the number of people with proclivity.
I vehemently disagree with abortion, but I am resigned to the fact that Roe vs. Wade aint going anywhere, so I gave up the fight and believe the resources need to be applied to education.
Those of you wanting all guns banned are in the same boat. It's never going to happen, so give up the fight and take it somewhere you can make a positive change....education.
If it is not guns, it will be bombs. If it is not bombs, it will be very large trucks. If it is not very large trucks, it will be airplanes. A person with the proclivity to do harm will do harm, so we need to find out ways to reduce the number of people with proclivity.
Agree with all of that but, there is a large gap between, "do nothing about current gun laws" and "ban all guns".
I agree that wanting all guns banned is idiotic, guns are just a part of the American culture, good and bad. But that doesn't mean we can look at things like banning bump stops, advancing palm reading or other safety technologies, creating better non lethal - self defense weapons, look at slowing the reload or semi auto fire rate of guns, clip sizes, etc.
This is ignorant. When you can kill 50+ people from 500 yards away in 5 minutes with hamburgers & fries, let me know. Guns are designed for a specific purpose.
My mom was killed by a drunk driver. Do we need to outlaw liquor? Do we need to sell alcohol in tiny bottles? Ration it by day? Make it insanely expensive? Get rid of shot glasses? Limit the proof of alcohol? No, I did not go on a rampage. We could get rid of it and we go back to bootleggers. Drunks will drink. Sadly, being drunk and driving is a poor decision, one that does not assume the driver intends to take a life or intended by the driver. They intend to go home, it is a poor lazy decision that is selfish and negligent.
Here, we have a young adult that intentionally takes lives and plans it in advance. How does this happen today and why? This did not happen with regularity in the 50's or 60's, etc...Something has changed.
You could have put loaded guns in the schools I was raised in, in every class room and no one would have been shot. We did not raise killers in my day.
All the talk is guns, but what about that young kid? Where is the concern for him and how do we understand what drove him to do that? We need to understand the psychology behind it and fix the what makes kids WANT TO KILL, that kid is sick.
Society and our culture is creating monsters, not a single parent today will blame their kid or hold their kid accountable for anything. God forbid if as parents we have to ask ourselves HOW DID WE FAIL THIS CHILD?
We do not answer this question because we know the reality. Gun control is a band aid, do it because I do not care, but it will not save many lives.
We want to do something to clear our conscious while pop culture, video games, MSM, movies, etc....devalues lives and individuals all around us and we stop teaching kids morals, and getting them involved in a church and learning love and forgiveness. We do not want to admit we are a horrible country today in raising healthy young adults ready to join the adult world, kids living in basements of their parents until they are 30, and needing safe rooms, kids no longer know how to cope with anything.
All around us hate and victimization is sold, not caring and problem solving.
My mom died because life happens, I forgave god and the person that did it. Unless the whole country wants to solve drunk driving, I am smart enough to know I am whistling in the wind.
Gun control is whistling in the wind but go for it, when we decide to properly raise our children again and not reward so called artists for providing filth to our kids with millions that devalues life and individuals, this will continue. You can live with the sick pop culture we have today, IF the parents, schools, and churches counter balances the garbage and keeps our young adults grounded and learning morals. Most adults today are horrible parents and role models, they think they are victims as well and do not hold themselves accountable.
The kids we are raising is a reflection of us, some do not want to look at the mirror because they will not like what they see.
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So you prefer the very expensive slow, painful deaths of many more people. Got it.
How many people do you personally that snort coke or do meth?
Pot is illegal. Alcohol is not. I probably know 7 or 8 people personally that smoke a joint a week, I bet I know 80 that drink some form of alcohol once a week.
Does Pot being illegal keep ALL people from smoking it? Obviously not. But it greatly reduced the number that does.
First off, very sorry about your mom, that is horrible. However, if driving while intoxicated was perfectly legal, we would have waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy more DUI fatalities.
Fear of getting pulled over for DD keeps a ton of people from doing so. Many still do, but the threat of getting caught drastically changes most people's behavior towards it.
Much less likely then your loved one getting killed in a mass shooting.
And you don’t know my stance on illegal immigration. Clearly.
Start with tougher background checks including mental health verification or record checking, no sales to anyone formerly or presently under the care of a doctor for mental health reasons. No sales to anyone on a federal no fly list. Develop database from physicians, insurance companies, and FAA for this record at point of sale for gun sales anywhere commercially and include database for private sellers too.
Make gun sales WITHOUT background checks verified a felony at all gun shows, commercial stores, or any private sales if known or discovered. Increase the aggressive investigation of black market weapons sales and manufacture by using the FBI, CIA, or NSA resources to work on this more aggressively and declare no tolerance for illegal gun running here.
Limit gun manufacturing numbers by taxing over a certain number of units made for the US and fining any violators with shutdown capability for repeat offenses. Ban automatic weapons sales and their manufacture here unless specific unit numbers are ordered and verified by the US military and approved by the Department of Defense and reported to Congress. Monitor gun manufacturers for compliance with these regulations sort of like OSHA for workplace safety and compliance. Nations that limit gun availability have much less gun violence than the US so we should learn from that reality.
Tax gun ownership at a high rate for any weapons possessed over three( Rifle, shotgun, and hand gun, that should take care of hunting and personal security)based on a tax per weapon owned if they exceed three. Increase the cost of ammunition and increase taxes on their sale over a certain amount of each kind of ammunition bought.
Increase public security by paying for increased security and scanning measures at public facilities where soft targets exist. Include undercover civilian dressed deployment of military personnel as their duty assignment to provide that security detail.
Plenty here for gun lobby and lovers to attack but you said propose something for discussion so there it is!
These are some things I’ve heard people propose when discussing the US gun death epidemic.
Mental health stuff sounds great, who gets to flag someone for mental health issues and what is the trigger to get you on the list?
My wife had postpartum depression and was medication for 6 months. Should she be banned for life?
Feds control no fly lost and people get out on it all the time that shouldn’t be. No thanks on that one.
How would the government know how many guns I have to tax over three? No thanks.
I think @OKSTATE1 presents more stuff here than you responded to. I believe he is spot on about schools and parents not being accountable for kids misbehaving. My wife is a teacher and she is always hammering this point to me.
This is definately a white, teen, male issue. I see this as a mental health issue, not a gun issue.
We can protect our kids. It's called paying guards to guard the schools. No one so far has been willing to pay that cost.
The answer isn't to try to take away people's right to bear arms but to post guards, make schools more difficult to ingress and egress. There are physical barriers that can be placed.
Start adding up the collective costs to do all that, basically make public schools fortified like prisons and you'll have your answer.
The answer isn't to try to take away people's right to bear arms but to post guards, make schools more difficult to ingress and egress. There are physical barriers that can be placed.
Start adding up the collective costs to do all that, basically make public schools fortified like prisons and you'll have your answer.
There were enough warming signs from the shooter to have done something about it. We have to up our cyber security and profiling. We're stopping some terrorist attacks, we should be able to stop some of these attacks. Also, this kid had been on the campus this year, he wasn't allowed to bring a backpack on campus, if that's a concern he probably shouldn't have been on the campus at all. We also need to give a longer arm for probable cause. (Law enforcement)
We don’t need mental health, gun control, or more government; we need parents who are willing to be parents and instill right and wrong in their children and not be best buds or afraid of their kids.
Oh, agree, this kid was known apparently, yet was still able to carry it out. This is the bigger issue, not guns.
Absolutely agree...not sure how you get there. Society has trended down for decades now.
Oh I I'm in full agreement with him as far as the psychological issues that young people have today, and the gross laziness of parents. I mention that in another post. where this Society goes in 20 years is pretty frightening in my opinion. I disagree that gun control is only a Band-Aid. I think things can be done in this area especially in that area of technology and innovation that can make it more difficult for these mass murders to happen,, but still allow Hunter's to hunt and homeowners to protect their families.
I think it's both a psychological / societal issue and a gun control issue. But because of our obsession with our political party Play Books, too many people insist that we should only address one of either of these 2.
Guards would help, but are we just going to give up on figuring out why kids decide to kill? How about keeping kids from growing up to be killers? This is the problem, our culture is raising killers. Fixing it is possible but we no longer have the values of the past, both with the parents, and not trusting schools to seriously discipline kids in the class room and to teach kids right from wrong. I spent more time with the Nuns and my coaches then I did with my parents, both the Nuns and Coaches taught us how to be adults, right from wrong. When I got in trouble at school or a friend’s house if my parents found out I got it good at home. Today parents would either sue or turn you in for child abuse.
Go teach Junior Achievement at an OKC school to some 8th graders and find out the ZOO teachers have to teach in. Teachers can do nothing about it, society has allowed that to happen. Kids can not learn because 75% of the kids are disrespectful jack@sses that respect no one or themselves. So we do not pay teachers and they have to put up with young punks all day long.
I can only imagine what an inner city Detroit or Chicago school is like. Teachers are not failing us, parents are. Some parents are raising killers and sadly some of the students are such serious jack@sses and cruel SOB bullies the first discipline they get is by the bullet of a fellow student and many innocents die.
These killers are not born hateful human beings that want to kill other kids.
Parents need to parent, teachers need to be supported to do so as well and allowed to disclipline as well, and if needed like a Pilot or Captain on an airline or cruise ship throw a student out for a year, it is not right because a parent refuses to gain control over their child everyone else in the class does not get to learn and they also get bullied in the process.
Education is a privilege not a right. Send the problem kids home, that might force parants to act. Otherwise, send them to problem schools and try to teach them a trade and let them finish out their daycare in a manner that does not disrupt parents and kids that are serious about education. We would end up with far better schools and more highly educated kids.
Private schools work because kids get thrown out if they are big problems, teachers are respected.
Free education is not respected because it is provided no matter how bad a student behaves in the class room, so free education is not seen as a privilege and not seen as an opportunity, for some it is a glorified daycare center. Kick kids out that misbehave and at least now free public education is now seen as a privilege and it carries the responsibility of making sure all students and parents create an environment for learning. Not time to act like immature animals and turn it in to a comedy club at the expense of teachers and students.
Go teach Junior Achievement at an OKC school to some 8th graders and find out the ZOO teachers have to teach in. Teachers can do nothing about it, society has allowed that to happen. Kids can not learn because 75% of the kids are disrespectful jack@sses that respect no one or themselves. So we do not pay teachers and they have to put up with young punks all day long.
I can only imagine what an inner city Detroit or Chicago school is like. Teachers are not failing us, parents are. Some parents are raising killers and sadly some of the students are such serious jack@sses and cruel SOB bullies the first discipline they get is by the bullet of a fellow student and many innocents die.
These killers are not born hateful human beings that want to kill other kids.
Parents need to parent, teachers need to be supported to do so as well and allowed to disclipline as well, and if needed like a Pilot or Captain on an airline or cruise ship throw a student out for a year, it is not right because a parent refuses to gain control over their child everyone else in the class does not get to learn and they also get bullied in the process.
Education is a privilege not a right. Send the problem kids home, that might force parants to act. Otherwise, send them to problem schools and try to teach them a trade and let them finish out their daycare in a manner that does not disrupt parents and kids that are serious about education. We would end up with far better schools and more highly educated kids.
Private schools work because kids get thrown out if they are big problems, teachers are respected.
Free education is not respected because it is provided no matter how bad a student behaves in the class room, so free education is not seen as a privilege and not seen as an opportunity, for some it is a glorified daycare center. Kick kids out that misbehave and at least now free public education is now seen as a privilege and it carries the responsibility of making sure all students and parents create an environment for learning. Not time to act like immature animals and turn it in to a comedy club at the expense of teachers and students.
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No Child Left Behind is a total failure. Time to give public schools the ability to discipline and ultimately remove problem children from the classroom.
