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Trump accuses Obama of wiretapping him

One thing I strongly believe - whatever the end game, Trump's tweets on this were calculated by Bannon.


I will say that one advantage in this media battle that Trump has over all of the media on the left is complete and utter coordination with "his" media outlets like Breitbart, Cernovich, gatewaypundit. etc, etc, etc. through Bannon.

The other side is just individually doing their own thing, but from a similar viewpoint.

Quality of desired narrative (whether accurate, true, or fair) over quantity with the same reliability concerns. One side in this media war has a General and loyal soldiers taking their marching orders. The other side is a bunch of Lieutenants all trying to to get promoted over each other while guessing who their General will actually end up being and with no wizened Master Sergeant to give them advice.
 
This "battle of narratives" is becoming a very meta, very interesting study in communication, influence, and advocacy for me. I haven't yet wrapped my head around what it all means, and may just be rambling.

Narrative One
This appears to be the calculus: either the wiretaps exist, as Trump suggests, and the president will use them to bludgeon the Obama administration and the media for impropriety and overreach; or, there were no wiretaps, which suggests the previous administration had no reason to suspect Trump colluded with a foreign government

vs.


Narrative Two
If the wiretaps exist, that means a FISA judge appointed by the SCOTUS Chief Judge (without advice and consent of the Senate) found probable cause of wrongdoing by Trump to issue the warrant...or...Trump's tweet is baseless crap.

Neither of these narratives REALLY needs to first establish ANY of the facts surrounding them to effectively communicate, influence, and advocate. It doesn't really matter whether or not"Obama wiretapped Trump" because if he DID it means this, and if he DIDN'T it means that.

If I were judging the quality of these two separate narratives, I would probably fall in favor of the second. I also recognize that would be because I've had legal training and realize that the second part of the first narrative is flawed. If there were no wiretaps, that really doesn't in any way suggest that there were no reason to suspect Trump was colluding with the Russians. The level required to get a wiretap warrant is greater than reasonable suspiscion....which is the level required to start an investigation.

Well....plus I wrote the second narrative.:p

I also, however, recognize the power of the first narrative is that my debunking of it is wordy, technical, and "legal" instead of "instinctual".

Seems we truly are living in a post-factual world at this point. The facts really don't matter to either argument being made....to either narrative being presented.

Like I said....very "meta".

Does any of this make any sense or ring true with anyone?
 
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And Trump specifically said Obama tapped his phones.

Which brings up another "meta" communication thing I'm questioning myself about.

I have always been of the opinion that the best type of communication was accurate, precise, nuanced and measured. Now I'm starting to think that isn't necessarily true in all cases. You make a broad, controversial claim/statement that isn't at all clear or precise to set the fire. You wait for the smoke to clear, see where public sentiment is going and then argue that is exactly what you meant in your original tweet.

I was raised to say what you mean and mean what you say.

We may be in an era of...

Say what you want and define what you meant when you said that later.

These "meta" communication musings aren't an indictment or criticism of particular people. It's more examining how social media, 24 hour news cycle, etc. is changing how we communicate at a fundamental level.
 
And Trump specifically said Obama tapped his phones.

Which brings up another "meta" communication thing I'm questioning myself about.

I have always been of the opinion that the best type of communication was accurate, precise, nuanced and measured. Now I'm starting to think that isn't necessarily true in all cases. You make a broad, controversial claim/statement that isn't at all clear or precise to set the fire. You wait for the smoke to clear, see where public sentiment is going and then argue that is exactly what you meant in your original tweet.

I was raised to say what you mean and mean what you say.

We may be in an era of...

Say what you want and define what you meant when you said that later.

These "meta" communication musings aren't an indictment or criticism of particular people. It's more examining how social media, 24 hour news cycle, etc. is changing how we communicate at a fundamental level.
Semantics... Obama can try to hide behind them and the cover of the MSM.
 
There is no doubt we live in a post-fact America. I've said it for a while now and the phenomenon did not suddenly appear when Trump arrived on the scene.

Obama and the Democrats have been parlaying this into a winning strategy for a long time now. Remember the stories the Obama administration floated out there following the Benghazi fiasco fully knowing that they were lies?

Trump is the first in the GOP to attempt the same strategy.
 
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There is no doubt we live in a post-fact America. I've said it for a while now and the phenomenon did not suddenly appear when Trump arrived on the scene.

Obama and the Democrats have been parlaying this into a winning strategy for a long time now. Remember the stories the Obama administration floated out there following the Benghazi fiasco fully knowing that they were lies?

Trump is the first in the GOP to attempt the same strategy.

I agree on the strategy stuff but we are not exactly in a post fact world. We are in a 24 hour, 10,000 source news cycle world with real time delivery. We have more facts not less, but also exponentially more bs as networks become more partisan amd entertainment focused and face more non traditional competition - and cannot afford the time needed to vet every story.

We are in a world where the media in general can no longer be trusted as a whole. But an amalgamation of news yields incredible content but provides great cover for propaganda.
 
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Damn, I'm worn out from getting current on this thread; once again, my oldie answers everything:

 
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One thing I strongly believe - whatever the end game, Trump's tweets on this were calculated by Bannon.
No question about it. This was most definitely not an emotional wreckless tweet that Trump is very capable of.
 
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I agree on the strategy stuff but we are not exactly in a post fact world. We are in a 24 hour, 10,000 source news cycle world with real time delivery. We have more facts not less, but also exponentially more bs as networks become more partisan amd entertainment focused and face more non traditional competition - and cannot afford the time needed to vet every story.

We are in a world where the media in general can no longer be trusted as a whole. But an amalgamation of news yields incredible content but provides great cover for propaganda.

I don't know that I agree with that.

Don't know that I definitely disagree.

What I do know within the context of this particular issue (and Russia) and the usual interactions on this board....I'm not seeing a lot of "facts" being cited. I'm seeing a lot of narratives and propaganda (from everywhere and all sides), but not a lot of reliance on verifiable facts.
 
Kudos to this debate. The question I have, is what % can really see what is going on today in terms of "facts", etc....and of that %, what percentage even cares about the actual "facts" and is blinded by partisan politics? Then you have that percentage that does not know or does not care. Scary, I guess what I am saying, are we in a environment the facts really do not matter much except to a small few? I would sure like to know these percentages, be hard to estimate.

One other thought, I think some on this board are in the minority of trying to figure out the actual facts and are open minded enough to see them and then accept them.
 
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Kudos to this debate. The question I have, is what % can really see what is going on today in terms of "facts", etc....and of that %, what percentage even cares about the actual "facts" and is blinded by partisan politics? Then you have that percentage that does not know or does not care. Scary, I guess what I am saying, are we in a environment the facts really do not matter much except to a small few? I would sure like to know these percentages, be hard to estimate.

One other thought, I think some on this board are in the minority of trying to figure out the actual facts and are open minded enough to see them and then accept them.
Out of curiosity where do you consider yourself?
 
Kudos to this debate. The question I have, is what % can really see what is going on today in terms of "facts", etc....and of that %, what percentage even cares about the actual "facts" and is blinded by partisan politics? Then you have that percentage that does not know or does not care. Scary, I guess what I am saying, are we in a environment the facts really do not matter much except to a small few? I would sure like to know these percentages, be hard to estimate.

One other thought, I think some on this board are in the minority of trying to figure out the actual facts and are open minded enough to see them and then accept them.

Damn, you should have started a poll thread:

% of clueless dumbasses (see Jay Leno's Jaywalking/Jesse Watters - Watters' World)
% of partisan hacks eating all the yellow snow
% of who gives a flying f*ck
% of we board geniuses who care and want to know.

Yes, it's a minority, but we still want to know.
 
Out of curiosity where do you consider yourself?

Admittedly, that is a longer post than I care to post right now after a few drinks and watching OSU lose in both basketball and baseball. I will say I care about the facts, feel like I am open minded, and I believe it may take time for the truth to come out and it may mean waiting a long time for it to come out and not judging, and taking what pieces of facts that are known and putting together a puzzle and seeing if you can in your own mind place a high degree of reliance and deciding for yourself and not allowing MSM to dominate your thinking.
 
Team Putin is the real winner. US reputation being tarnished at an alarming rate...


This is what makes me question your sanity. Please tell me how America has such a wonderful reputation after the last two presidents.
 
Admittedly, that is a longer post than I care to post right now after a few drinks and watching OSU lose in both basketball and baseball. I will say I care about the facts, feel like I am open minded, and I believe it may take time for the truth to come out and it may mean waiting a long time for it to come out and not judging, and taking what pieces of facts that are known and putting together a puzzle and seeing if you can in your own mind place a high degree of reliance and deciding for yourself and not allowing MSM to dominate your thinking.

I'm older and started drinking earlier than you. This obviously makes me smarter, more charming and articulate!:p
 
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Can I add another "what if" or two?

What if Donnie has seen the probable cause affidavit and it's baseless? What if the warrant was signed by a judge who didn't care if there was probable cause or not?

The president is in a position to know things like this before shooting his mouth off. Insider info?

What if?
 
Can I add another "what if" or two?

What if Donnie has seen the probable cause affidavit and it's baseless? What if the warrant was signed by a judge who didn't care if there was probable cause or not?

The president is in a position to know things like this before shooting his mouth off. Insider info?

What if?

What do you think the odds of that are?

If that is the case...

1. He can certainly argue that it is baseless and the judge is another one of those "so-called" liberal judges. But the judges on the FISA court have all been chosen by a conservative SCOTUS judge with no approval or input from Obama or the Senate.

2. The language in his tweets about "Obama wiretapping" also kind of ignores the fact that warrant would had to have been obtained by the FBI or the NSA. The language in his tweet about investigating candidates during a sacred election also kind of ignores that Hillary was being investigated during the election and Comey actually came out and made statements about Hillary that Trump referred to repeatedly during the election.

3. He certainly has the authority to declassify the investigative information, the wiretap probable cause affidavit, and the warrant and make his case. If he does go that route, he should probably start releasing all of it....the entire investigation to date....as I said previously, put up or shut up.

But what I've been working out for myself is that what the fact are about the wiretapping really aren't critical to the public success or failure of the narrative of the administration or its opponents....so why bother dealing in facts at all?
 
OK, when you guys are considering this, you may want to remember.

The AG had recused herself in July, and turned over all investigative authority in regards to either campaign to FBI Director Comey. From a legal perspective as the FBI largely operates independently when issues of a partisan political element are present, they would almost certainly not even have notified the White House, so they could not gain a partisan political advantage.

It would have been the FBI, under Comey's leadership who would have secured any warrant with the FISA Court. NOT Obama!

When you make accusations of this importance you better damned be sure you're right! If you say Obama did this, when (if he had NO involvement) with it, then you better be prepared for all the fall-out and criticism that will come your way. It's sure a shit NOT "semantics" or splitting hairs, to come down on him for saying Obama was behind this, if it was an independent investigation being carried out by the FBI, almost certainly without Obama's knowledge.

I would expect we may get some clarification from Director Comey on this soon and we will all get to see how close the truth is to Trump's claims.
 
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What do you think the odds of that are?

If that is the case...

1. He can certainly argue that it is baseless and the judge is another one of those "so-called" liberal judges. But the judges on the FISA court have all been chosen by a conservative SCOTUS judge with no approval or input from Obama or the Senate.

2. The language in his tweets about "Obama wiretapping" also kind of ignores the fact that warrant would had to have been obtained by the FBI or the NSA. The language in his tweet about investigating candidates during a sacred election also kind of ignores that Hillary was being investigated during the election and Comey actually came out and made statements about Hillary that Trump referred to repeatedly during the election.

3. He certainly has the authority to declassify the investigative information, the wiretap probable cause affidavit, and the warrant and make his case. If he does go that route, he should probably start releasing all of it....the entire investigation to date....as I said previously, put up or shut up.

But what I've been working out for myself is that what the fact are about the wiretapping really aren't critical to the public success or failure of the narrative of the administration or its opponents....so why bother dealing in facts at all?

What are the odds? What are the odds of any of this train wreck being true? Beats the hell out of me. I've seen some search warrants signed when I didn't think they should have been. What if the search warrant affidavit which may or may not exist contains erroneous information? I just figure I can speculate as well or better than somebody I never heard of on twitter so I'm having at it!

The "conservative" Chief Justice gave us Obamacare. So who did he pick for this court? Again, beats the hell out of me! (Seriously, does anybody know who these judges are?)

So I'm with you in that I'm ready to have the truth. One way or the other. I don't care which way the cookie crumbles. But let the crumbling begin. He damn sure can declassify anything he wants. So let's get it on.
 
OK, when you guys are considering this, you may want to remember.

The AG had recused herself in July, and turned over all investigative authority in regards to either campaign to FBI Director Comey. From a legal perspective as the FBI largely operates independently when issues of a partisan political element are present, they would almost certainly not even have notified the White House, so they could not gain a partisan political advantage.

It would have been the FBI, under Comey's leadership who would have secured any warrant with the FISA Court. NOT Obama!

When you make accusations of this importance you better damned be sure you're right! If you say Obama did this, when (if he had NO involvement) with it, then you better be prepared for all the fall-out and criticism that will come your way. It's sure a shit NOT "semantics" or splitting hairs, to come down on him for saying Obama was behind this, if it was an independent investigation being carried out by the FBI, almost certainly without Obama's knowledge.

I would expect we may get some clarification from Director Comey on this soon and we will all get to see how close the truth is to Trump's claims.

No way there's an Obama fingerprint on this wiretapping. It'll just be another case in which Trump critics can bag on him for being recklessly inaccurate. If there is a wiretapping in the first place.
 
This is what makes me question your sanity. Please tell me how America has such a wonderful reputation after the last two presidents.
Low corruption
Superpower militarily
Clean elections
Stable legal institutions
Safe haven economically

Tied with U.K. IMO on these counts until now...
 
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When Trump says 'Obama', he means the Obama executive branch. It seems pretty obvious to me.
 
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Until now... Russia quite happy to see US knocked down a rung or two.

image.jpg
 
When Trump says 'Obama', he means the Obama executive branch. It seems pretty obvious to me.

Can't make this shit up...

Didn't have enough characters in his tweet to put the word administration in there, I guess. That's what? 14/148s or so of the entire tweet. Could have gone with "admin" for efficiency sake.

You make a broad, controversial claim/statement that isn't at all clear or precise to set the fire. You wait for the smoke to clear, see where public sentiment is going and then argue that is exactly what you meant in your original tweet.

I was raised to say what you mean and mean what you say.

We may be in an era of...

Say what you want and define what you meant when you said that later.
 
Mega,

Did you actually read the statute the author of that article relied upon for this claptrap for yourself? Because it's right there in black and white.

1. The submission must be made BY the Atty General. (NOT the President, NOT the VP, NOT anyone else.)

2. It only applies IF the electronic surveillance is SOLELY directed at communications between or among foreign powers.

3. "there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party."

4. The submission itself is made to the FISA court and by extension to the Chief Justice of SCOTUS. It also requires that both the House and Senate Select Committees on Intelligence must be notified 30 days ahead of time of when the surveillance is to begin or in the case of an emergency as soon as possible after surveillance begins.

Clearly, Trump is a "United States Person" so he, along with every other US Citizen or Resident cannot be lawfully wiretapped under this section of the Act. He's also NOT a foreign power, so once again this section is completely inapplicable. Finally, do you honestly believe that all the Republicans in the House and Senate who were notified of such a thing wouldn't have made a huge stink about it?

I would also point out, just a pro-tip if you will, but maybe not put much stock in articles authored and published under the pen name "Tyler Durden" as they may prove to be just as psychotic as the character from whom they borrowed their nom de plume. Especially when they voice opinions on subjects they clearly don't seem to know much about or when they show such inability to read the plain language of a statute. (It's also interesting that he only provided about 1/2 of the actual statute to which he cited, there's quite a bit more which did not appear.)

The point about Snowden and others he claims are related to this particular portion of the statute are also a complete red herring. There are obviously other sections of the statute which allow for the surveillance of US Citizens/Residents, but only after going through the FISA Court. The author of the article is making an assumption that it was this section of the Statute used to spy on Snowden and others, but provides no evidence or reason as to why anyone should make such an assumption. Since there are so many other provisions within the statute that WOULD be applicable to those situations involving US Citizens/Residents, trying to apply this provision makes no damned sense, much less create a reason to make such an assumption.

As Trump is a "US Person" unless he was ordering a "hit" on someone, or someone was ordering a "hit" on him, or a court order secured - ALL communications of his which wound up in their hands would have to be deleted within 72 hrs as per the statute. (You can see that provision below.)

In short this article is worse than a "nothing biscuit" it's a freaking "Air Biscuit" and a wet one at that.

For the record, here are the elements the AG would have to certify in writing to the House and Senate are being followed as part of the "minimization procedures" under 50 USC Sec.1801(h):

(h) "Minimization procedures", with respect to electronic
surveillance, means -
(1) specific procedures, which shall be adopted by the
Attorney General, that are reasonably designed in light of the
purpose and technique of the particular surveillance, to
minimize the acquisition and retention, and prohibit the
dissemination, of non publicly available information concerning
un-consenting United States persons consistent with the need of
the United States to obtain, produce, and disseminate foreign
intelligence information;
(2) procedures that require that non publicly available
information, which is not foreign intelligence information, as
defined in subsection (e)(1) of this section, shall not be
disseminated in a manner that identifies any United States
person, without such person's consent, unless such person's
identity is necessary to understand foreign intelligence
information or assess its importance;
(3) notwithstanding paragraphs (1) and (2), procedures that
allow for the retention and dissemination of information that
is evidence of a crime which has been, is being, or is about to
be committed and that is to be retained or disseminated for law
enforcement purposes; and
(4) notwithstanding paragraphs (1), (2), and (3), with
respect to any electronic surveillance approved pursuant to
section 1802(a) of this title, procedures that require that no
contents of any communication to which a United States person
is a party shall be disclosed, disseminated, or used for any
purpose or retained for longer than 72 hours unless a court
order under section 1805 of this title is obtained or unless
the Attorney General determines that the information indicates
a threat of death or serious bodily harm to any person.


And for good measure, here's 50 U.S.C Sec I, the part that defines who is a "US Person"

(i) "United States person" means a citizen of the United
States, an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence (as
defined in section 1101(a)(20) of title 8), an unincorporated
association a substantial number of members of which are citizens
of the United States or aliens lawfully admitted for permanent
residence, or a corporation which is incorporated in the United
States, but does not include a corporation or an association
which is a foreign power, as defined in subsection (a)(1), (2),
or (3) of this section.
 
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Low corruption
Superpower militarily
Clean elections
Stable legal institutions
Safe haven economically

Tied with U.K. IMO on these counts until now...


You are becoming a mid level troll or those weed cookies have given you schizophrenia. That list is ridiculous.
 
Well this article contradicts the claim that POTUS couldn't order the tap.

Credible? Interesting.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-...n-order-wiretap-and-why-trump-may-have-last-l

Hollywood effectively handled the legal side.

I already talked about the narrative side.

Narrative One
This appears to be the calculus: either the wiretaps exist, as Trump suggests, and the president will use them to bludgeon the Obama administration and the media for impropriety and overreach; or, there were no wiretaps, which suggests the previous administration had no reason to suspect Trump colluded with a foreign government

vs.


Narrative Two
If the wiretaps exist, that means a FISA judge appointed by the SCOTUS Chief Judge (without advice and consent of the Senate) found probable cause of wrongdoing by Trump to issue the warrant...or...Trump's tweet is baseless crap.

Neither of these narratives REALLY needs to first establish ANY of the facts surrounding them to effectively communicate, influence, and advocate. It doesn't really matter whether or not"Obama wiretapped Trump" because if he DID it means this, and if he DIDN'T it means that.

I also, however, recognize the power of the first narrative is that my debunking of it is wordy, technical, and "legal" instead of "instinctual".

You seem to be biting hard, early, and often on the Breitbart narrative almost exclusively on most of these issues. Quoting "Tyler Durden" for legal analysis and then not even bothering to look at or discuss it's credibility and moving on. You're kind of going beyond just biting on the Bannon/Breitbart narratives to actively promoting them in the "post fact" manner that they presented them. Quoting "Tyler Durden"....not delving into credibility, and moving on. C'mon. You're better than that. You're actively hunting out the "anonymous sources" to support this narrative while being critical from the beginning on anonymous sources and calling for facts on the Russia thing from the start. I miss the universally skeptical Mega.
 
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