So is anybody hearing anything on changes

[CowboyTanker]

If our leaders use your method of evaluating the program, we will continue our slide into irrelevancy, insignificance.

And if you’re going to make qualifying statements about Brands, I think you should include the idea that many think possible….that Pat Smith was largely responsible for our four year run, 2003-2006. Doesn’t it seem odd that after winning four in a row and Pat resigns a few months after the last one in 2006, we finish 5th, 5th, 15th the following three years. (something like that) That clearly is some kind of indicator…don’t you think?

And didn’t John win in his second or third year? I’m pretty sure some of our individual champions that year started with Joe Seay. By your evaluation methods, with Brands type qualifiers, perhaps John hasn't won any NCAA championships. Now I’m being facetious, or am I?!

One more thing…..if, as you mention above (the coaches winning the NCAA), that was over a twenty year period, we’d all be pretty darn happy and that would be acceptable. In other words if Sanderson had won 10, Smith 5, Brands 4, Ryan 1 all spread out evenly over the last 20 years….but that’s not what has happened. We are becoming irrelevant.

 

[osudog]

Neither has EVER Won an NCAA TEAMChampionship, but People are saying John Smith should ne fired, How Many ACTIVE NCAA Division 1 Wrestling Coaches have won More than John Smith?
The List
1. Sanderson 10
2. J. Smith 5
3. Brands 4 (His first 3 were Gable Recruits AND all his recruits at Virginia Tech who followed him after he Redshirted the Entire Team, so basically he had 2 Teams)
4. T. Ryan 1
Am I missing Any? If Not J. Smith has as many as every other Coached combined if Not counting Sanderson, Meaning Any one who replace J. Smith is a Downgrade as far as winning NCAA Division 1 Wrestling Championships.

This is line of thinking is why OSU is where it’s at now. Who gives a shit what he did 15 years ago. This is exactly how you become irrelevant

 

[Wrassler17]

Cael is already the goat. Most of you crying about John when only two other coaches have won National titles in the last 10 of what 13 years, and before he got to PSU he finished 2nd, 3rd, and 5th in the three years there? Every team is feeling the same. Can John do a better job, yes, but so can all of the other coaches in D1. We have had some monster recruiting classes and so have other schools, but Cael is a beast. I do not see much changing.

Gable won 15 titles in 21 years. Cael has 10 in 16 years, so he's not the goat yet.

And Cael did finish 2nd, 5th & 3rd at ISU. He also finished 9th, 6th & 2nd in 3 non championship seasons at PSU. In those 6 seasons, John finished ahead of him just once. Brands, Ryan, Koll & JRob finished ahead of him at least twice.

Things are just not trending well...

Since 2010, Iowa has 2 titles and 2 runner-ups. OhioSt has 1 title and 3 runner-ups. We have no titles and 2 runner-ups. The same as Cornell.

And since 2013, we have 7 top 10 team finishes. The same as Michigan. PSU & Iowa have 10, OhioSt/Cornell/Mizzou have 9. Even VTech has 8. During that same period, PSU & Iowa have 9 top 4 finishes (trophies). We have 6, the same as OhioSt. But OhioSt accomplished theirs over an 8 year period rather a 10 year period.

 

[MiccoMacey]

John Smith results since 2000.

Year........Place.................NCs................Finalists..........AAs
2000.........5.......................0..............................0.................3
2001..........3.......................1...............................3.................6
2002..........5......................1................................1.................4
2003..........1......................2...............................2.................7
2004..........1......................0...............................3.................6
2005..........1......................5................................5................7
2006..........1......................2................................3................6
2007..........5......................0................................2................4
2008..........5......................1................................1.................4
2009.........16.....................0...............................0.................1
2010...........6.....................0...............................1..................4
2011............4......................1...............................2.................3
2012...........6......................0...............................1.................3
2013...........2......................2...............................2.................7
2014...........3......................2...............................4.................5
2015............7......................0...............................0................4
2016...........2......................2...............................2.................6
2017............3......................1...............................1..................8
2018..........13......................0..............................0.................4
2019...........3......................0...............................2.................5

2020.....Covid year No tournament

2021...........3.......................1.................................1..................6
2022.........14.......................0................................1..................2
2023.........18.......................0................................0.................2

For the most part, OSU has been in the top 10 for all of John's tenure (exceptions are 2009, 2018, 2022 and 2023). It might feel like OSU has been slipping because three of those four times occurred in the last five years.

 

[IAChief32]

3. Brands 4 (His first 3 were Gable Recruits AND all his recruits at Virginia Tech who followed him after he Redshirted the Entire Team, so basically he had 2 Teams)

Lol.

 

[Harleycowboy]

Neither has EVER Won an NCAA TEAMChampionship, but People are saying John Smith should ne fired, How Many ACTIVE NCAA Division 1 Wrestling Coaches have won More than John Smith?
The List
1. Sanderson 10
2. J. Smith 5
3. Brands 4 (His first 3 were Gable Recruits AND all his recruits at Virginia Tech who followed him after he Redshirted the Entire Team, so basically he had 2 Teams)
4. T. Ryan 1
Am I missing Any? If Not J. Smith has as many as every other Coached combined if Not counting Sanderson, Meaning Any one who replace J. Smith is a Downgrade as far as winning NCAA Division 1 Wrestling Championships.

Zalesky followed Gable and so it was Zalesky who won with recruits and then Iowa dropped, and they hired Brands. Brands did bring some Virg. Tech recruits or wrestlers with him.

 

[Sebastian]

The Hokeyes.

 

[Wrassler17]

The Hokeyes.

And since Coleman was mentioned in this thread...

 

[turfpoke]

And since Coleman was mentioned in this thread...

View embedded media

You’re GD right!!!! The look on Joey Slaton’s face when he knew that cradle was locked up is priceless.

 

[OSUMatFan]

I am so glad you brought that video back!

 

[Cowboy Tommy]

For the most part, OSU has been in the top 10 for all of John's tenure (exceptions are 2009, 2018, 2022 and 2023). It might feel like OSU has been slipping because three of those four times occurred in the last five years.

That's called a trend

 

[ctdub]

Mark Branch great wrestler, good guy but appears to have not done that good of job at Wyoming. If we fired John Smith and make an average hire boy our administration is stupid.

Disagree. Branch has done outstanding at Wyoming. He builds a family atmosphere with his team. Same as he did as assistant at OSU. Do you realize how difficult it is to recruit there? He’s showed loyalty to Wyo and built that program. He would be an excellent HC at OSU. He bleeds orange. I’d say the same for Pop, Coleman and Pendleton. But don’t just take Branch’s ncaa finish as a barometer. There’s a bigger picture and he’d bust his ass as HC of OSU.

 

[biocowboy]

Assuming there will be no post season wrap up or media availability? Maybe John can’t even explain the sh@t show?

Great way to keep fans engaged 🤔

 

[turfpoke]

Assuming there will be no post season wrap up or media availability? Maybe John can’t even explain the sh@t show?

Great way to keep fans engaged 🤔

I’ll give it up to you. You don’t stop.

 

[biocowboy]

I’ll give it up to you. You don’t stop.

Nope I don’t plan on stopping been a fan for 26 years. I’m in it for the long run and want what is best for the program. Not as big a donor as most, but I’ve donated enough to buy a nice vehicle over the years.

 

[lawpoke87]

I’ll give it up to you. You don’t stop.

He does have a point

 

[Wrassler17]

John should meet with the media and take questions. It's part of the job. But what can he say realistically? He implied changes would be made after Nationals last year and none were apparent. He'd basically be repeating himself. I'm not sure if it would be very informative.

 

[chasepollard]

John should meet with the media and take questions. It's part of the job. But what can he say realistically? He implied changes would be made after Nationals last year and none were apparent. He'd basically be repeating himself. I'm not sure if it would be very informative.

#1 then fire him if he doesn’t have a plan

#2 the fan base deserves to hear/see something.

#3 this looks bad

 

[Wrassler17]

#1 then fire him if he doesn’t have a plan

#2 the fan base deserves to hear/see something.

#3 this looks bad

Sure, I get that and don't disagree really.

But if people are expecting major news or some great insight, I think they'll be disappointed. We've already heard John's post season comments last March and his remarks on Rokfin after this season. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it will (would) be a lot of the same.

 

[Old Number Nine]

I did some research on our previous coaches and here’s what I found: (I hope these numbers are right, if not; c'est la vie)

Coach​

Years​

1st​

2nd​

3rd​

4th​

5th​

6th​

7th​

13th​

14th​

18th​

PerYr​

Gallagher​

13​

11​

2​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

1.15​

Griffith​

13​

8​

1​

3​

1​

​

​

​

​

​

​

1.77​

Roderick​

14​

7​

1​

​

3​

1​

2​

​

​

​

​

2.71​

Chesbro​

14​

1​

4​

5​

2​

1​

1​

​

​

​

​

3.07​

Seay​

8​

2​

2​

1​

3​

​

​

​

​

​

​

2.63​

Smith​

29​

5​

3​

7​

1​

4​

4​

2​

1​

1​

1​

4.79​

The “PerYr” is just the finishes (1,2,3..) added up and divided by years so the smaller the better; Gallagher, Griffith, Seay, Roderick, Chesbro then Smith. The trend is obvious but here’s the twist.

If Smith had retired after 13 years his total would be respectively ahead of Chesbro:

Smith 1​

13​

5​

1​

3​

​

2​

1​

1​

​

​

​

3.00​

Smith 2​

16​

​

2​

4​

1​

2​

3​

1​

1​

1​

1​

6.25​

…or 14 he would be last, but only slightly behind Chesbro

Smith 1​

14​

5​

1​

3​

​

3​

1​

1​

​

​

​

3.14​

Smith 2​

15​

​

2​

4​

1​

1​

3​

1​

1​

1​

1​

6.33​

Either way, the second half was disastrous; 6.25 or 6.33.

So, by the historic prospective, he should have stayed with the trend and retired at 13/14 years like all of our previous coaches who didn’t almost get our program the “Death Penalty”. Yes, I know Chesbro’s was a “forced” retirement.

 

[Wrassler17]

I did some research on our previous coaches and here’s what I found: (I hope these numbers are right, if not; c'est la vie)

Coach​

Years​

1st​

2nd​

3rd​

4th​

5th​

6th​

7th​

13th​

14th​

18th​

PerYr​

Gallagher​

13​

11​

2​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

1.15​

Griffith​

13​

8​

1​

3​

1​

​

​

​

​

​

​

1.77​

Roderick​

14​

7​

1​

​

3​

1​

2​

​

​

​

​

2.71​

Chesbro​

14​

1​

4​

5​

2​

1​

1​

​

​

​

​

3.07​

Seay​

8​

2​

2​

1​

3​

​

​

​

​

​

​

2.63​

Smith​

29​

5​

3​

7​

1​

4​

4​

2​

1​

1​

1​

4.79​

The “PerYr” is just the finishes (1,2,3..) added up and divided by years so the smaller the better; Gallagher, Griffith, Seay, Roderick, Chesbro then Smith. The trend is obvious but here’s the twist.

If Smith had retired after 13 years his total would be respectively ahead of Chesbro:

Smith 1​

13​

5​

1​

3​

​

2​

1​

1​

​

​

​

3.00​

Smith 2​

16​

​

2​

4​

1​

2​

3​

1​

1​

1​

1​

6.25​

…or 14 he would be last, but only slightly behind Chesbro

Smith 1​

14​

5​

1​

3​

​

3​

1​

1​

​

​

​

3.14​

Smith 2​

15​

​

2​

4​

1​

1​

3​

1​

1​

1​

1​

6.33​

Either way, the second half was disastrous; 6.25 or 6.33.

So, by the historic prospective, he should have stayed with the trend and retired at 13/14 years like all of our previous coaches who didn’t almost get our program the “Death Penalty”. Yes, I know Chesbro’s was a “forced” retirement.

This is interesting. And it might even be a little worse because I think we also finished 16th in 2009.

Both you and Harley have pointed out that John's coaching career would look very different if he had retired around 15 years ago. Hypothetically, if John retired after 2006 or 2007, who would have been named HC? Branch?

 

[Old Number Nine]

Just for the hell of it:

Coach	Years	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th		PerYr
Gable	24	17	5	1			1					1.50
Brands	18	4	4	3	4	1	1		1			3.11
Sanderson	14	11	1				1			1		2.00
Gable 13	13	10	2	1								1.31
Gable 14	14	10	2	1			1					1.64

Looks like 13/14 is the magic number so I guess Cael should retire this year along with Smith.

 

[Okie_Pat]

Only thing missing is that John just finished up his 32nd year so you got another 3 years of data to calculate in. Don't think that will improve the numbers either.

 

[chasepollard]

Sure, I get that and don't disagree really.

But if people are expecting major news or some great insight, I think they'll be disappointed. We've already heard John's post season comments last March and his remarks on Rokfin after this season. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it will (would) be a lot of the same.

Then he needs to move on...

This is our program, not his. Withholding action and information while expecting support is about as ignorant and stubborn as a person could be.

 

[Okie_Pat]

It definitely isn't very professional of John to make the decision to not have a end of the season press conference. As a coach you have a responsibility and owe it to the fans, parents and university at the very least 10 min of your time to address the media and speak on the season and answer some questions. Even if those questions aren't something you want to answer or hear and even if its the same old rhetoric. It sends the wrong message to the OSU wrestling fan base basically ignoring everyone's desire to be informed on a team we all love and support. Its been over 2 weeks and we have heard nothing from the staff. Its just sad because John met with the media once a week during a busy season and now that the season is over you know he has the time, he just simply doesn't want to do it and nobody is going to make him. It's Immature tbh.

 

[Sebastian]

Here's John's post tournament wrap up.... https://pistolsfiringblog.com/john-...ings-up-after-disappointing-wrestling-season/
....from last year.

Said all the things he needed to do, and basically did nothing but grouse about them and grudgingly continue to say he'd work on it.

The lack of a presser/info may have to do with pending changes. We'll see.

 

[Wrassler17]

John did a Q&A with the media after Nationals this year. It's on Rokfin if you missed it. For some reason it never got posted on YouTube.

That doesn't mean John shouldn't have an end of season presser - he obliviously should. Boynton did a Q&A after the North Texas loss and then did a presser about a week later.

 

[ionel]

Then he needs to move on...

This is our program, not his. Withholding action and information while expecting support is about as ignorant and stubborn as a person could be.

Or makes some changes. When was the last time there was a change in assistant coaches? Need to continually look for the best new talent and bring in the best at all levels to be the best.

 

[alex1fly]

Or makes some changes. When was the last time there was a change in assistant coaches? Need to continually look for the best new talent and bring in the best at all levels to be the best.

Chandler and GWH were added as assistant coaches for this season were they not? Added, but didn't replace anybody as you note. Hard to know what role they're playing. GWH was at duals and tournaments... Chandler was not. Perry does the most matside coaching. He seems more vocal than past assistant coaches. I definitely agree with the last sentiment... which is why I don't think we need to keep hiring OSU grads only for our staff. Seems a little short sighted.

 

[Okie_Pat]

Perry's matside coaching... "Hustle back, heavy hands, get up!"

 

[Wrassler17]

Perry's matside coaching... "Hustle back, heavy hands, get up!"

Don't forget "go to him", "you're out", and "on the whistle". Perry should prerecord stuff and play the tape in the corner. Would help save his voice.

I think the assistant coaches have been the least of our problems. Does anyone think Espo, Perry & Caldwell are against growing the RTC? Or using the portal? Those things would make their lives easier.

Also, on training & development. Jason Nolf was on Ryan Warner's podcast the other day. I only listened because I thought he might be looking to change RTCs with Dake at the NLWC. He isn't, but he did say something interesting...

Ryan asked what is the biggest thing he's gotten from Cael over the years. Nolf said it's not technique, technique only plays a small part in PSU's success. He said the biggest things are training and mindset. Said the PSU coaches know how to peak. They know when to run a hard practice and when to go light. When to have a structured session and when to have an open one. They developed it over the years based on how the team & individuals performed using different training methods. Sounded a lot like Quentin Wright's comments about Casey taking detailed practice notes.

 

[ionel]

Chandler and GWH were added as assistant coaches for this season were they not? Added, but didn't replace anybody as you note. Hard to know what role they're playing. GWH was at duals and tournaments... Chandler was not. Perry does the most matside coaching. He seems more vocal than past assistant coaches. I definitely agree with the last sentiment... which is why I don't think we need to keep hiring OSU grads only for our staff. Seems a little short sighted.

Esposito is the Associate and Perry the Assistant then Caldwell the Recruiting Coordiantor. Those you mention would be grad assistant or volunteer assistant, they are there to roll in the room. Theres been no change at Assoc & Asst for how long? Who has been brought in from outside, specifically Penn St to help understand what they are doing there and how to compete at that level? Or who has been brought in to help expand recruit in other geographic areas, although I feel they have done a decent job recruiting. Looking around a few other programs have picked up Penn St athletes.

 

[Okie_Pat]

I think Cael is just a small part of PSU success. Don't get me wrong, I think he is one hell of a coach and wrestler, but I think in a larger sense his assistants have been the brain child behind the training. If you listen to what all the past PSU wrestlers say and talk about PSU success its all about training and mindset. That room has such a relaxed and calm demeanor. Cael doesn't appear to put too much presser on his guys and allows them to have fun in practice and "play" around wrestle. This obviously allows them to wrestle relaxed and peak come March. I think our mindset is likely much different in practice and with our coaches.

 

[alex1fly]

Well their IG is posting weight room pics so they're already back at it in some regard.

 

[Wrassler17]

So what is the PSU secret sauce? They do have more $ and get more top 10 PFP recruits than everyone else. And some of those top recruits haven't delivered, but enough have. So, some of the possible ingredients...

- Training methodology. Discussed a lot already.
- Mindset. They have a sports psychologist who works with the team. Cael & many of their wrestlers talk about being grateful for the opportunity to compete, and focusing on attitude & effort vs results, etc.
- Recruiting. Target recruits with good athleticism & conditioning. There was also that ESPN article where Cody said they look for something in the eyes (killer instinct?).
- Run like a professional sports organization. Basically produce or be replaced in the lineup. There doesn't seem to be many partying issues. And lastly, their RTC not only provides elite training partners, it also shows a model for the lifestyle needed to be successful.

 

[alex1fly]

So what is the PSU secret sauce? They do have more $ and get more top 10 PFP recruits than everyone else. And some of those top recruits haven't delivered, but enough have. So, some of the possible ingredients...

- Training methodology. Discussed a lot already.
- Mindset. They have a sports psychologist who works with the team. Cael & many of their wrestlers talk about being grateful for the opportunity to compete, and focusing on attitude & effort vs results, etc.
- Recruiting. Target recruits with good athleticism & conditioning. There was also that ESPN article where Cody said they look for something in the eyes (killer instinct?).
- Run like a professional sports organization. Basically produce or be replaced in the lineup. There doesn't seem to be many partying issues. And lastly, their RTC not only provides elite training partners, it also shows a model for the lifestyle needed to be successful.

I'd add that they mine techniques from other combat sports.

 

[Okie_Pat]

If @Wrassler17 can figure out PSU's secret sauce than why can't our coaches, or really any other coach in DI.

 

[alex1fly]

If @Wrassler17 can figure out PSU's secret sauce than why can't our coaches, or really any other coach in DI.

PSU's rampant success comes from everything being in sync - the money/support, the athletes, the training, the coaching, the preparation. They're excelling at all of the elements and it makes them a perennial juggernaut. PSU will only be dethroned when they start to falter or other programs also reach the point of syncing up all of those areas at a high level. IMO of course.

 

[Wrassler17]

If @Wrassler17 can figure out PSU's secret sauce than why can't our coaches, or really any other coach in DI.

Lol, I'm only guessing. I'm sure every coach in the country has a much better sense of what they are actually doing. Some things can't be replicated though, like the $ and the recruiting. But it does seem like training methodology & culture could be.

PSU's rampant success comes from everything being in sync - the money/support, the athletes, the training, the coaching, the preparation. They're excelling at all of the elements and it makes them a perennial juggernaut. PSU will only be dethroned when they start to falter or other programs also reach the point of syncing up all of those areas at a high level. IMO of course.

This doesn't give PSU enough credit. At least that's the way it reads to me. Their success didn't come from the stars aligning.

I've read multiple x that their staff is the hardest working in wrestling. Kyle Snyder said it and that was after leaving a pretty good staff at OhioSt. They carefully plan everything.

 

[Okie_Pat]