I would imagine our next coach will depend on how the next 5-7 years go. We win a couple NCs it is very easy to promote from within (whoever that is). If we don't Popolizio is getting harder and hard to deny, IMO.
NCAA
- Thread starter Mrgrapple
- Start date
Thanks, I love everything about Chris Perry and would be far more than pleased if, when John hangs 'em up, Chris became our head coach. No slight to Espo, I just like Chris more.
Championships are won through recruiting in every college sport. I thought the University could not have anything to do with the Regional Training Center. We just need someone (outside of our program) to lead the effort and reach out to donors. As a contributor to the Cowboy Wrestling Club I am astonished that I have never had a call from anyone in the wrestling program.
I think back to 2000-2006ish and it seemed our hammers were from Oklahoma? Homegrown and dominate, with a few guys brought in from outside Oklahoma.
Johnny Thompson, Johny Hendricks, Will Gruenwald, Shane Roller, Tyrone Lewis...I am sure there are more. Looking at the AA list, it looks like majority (more than 50%) were from Oklahoma.
RTCs are nonprofit entities separate from the University (on paper). In reality, they operate at the direction of the head coach with the approval and support of the athletic director/compliance department. John and the administration appear to be uncomfortable with them for some reason. Some have said it's because they reside in a gray area (paying post grad athletes) while also being outside NCAA oversight. But we've had senior athletes before - Alex, JO, Derek, Eddie and others. It's puzzling frankly.
That is how I understand it as well.
The gray area that seems to be infringed at these other schools by paying grayshirts and promising to pay unenrolled athletes at the expiration of eligibility.
I do feel it would add a tremendous workload to the HC and minor oversights could turn into big problems. But, say a trusted person (Pat Smith) could be the appointed "Head of RTC" and things could be kept a little tighter.
No doubt some schools are cheating. Several head coaches have implied it.
The most common setup I've seen is the college head coach and a separate RTC coach. For us, Derek Fix is the RTC coach, so he would be responsible for day to day stuff. For Iowa, Dan Dennis is their RTC coach, so he would get direction from Brands.
I think one of the reasons John maybe gun shy of a big RTC is he may have concerns about an arms race, which would hurt the not tradition rich schools.
If Alabama in football or Duke in basketball tried to this in CFB or CBB it would get shut down immediately and/or sanctions would be levied.
All I know for certain is that it’s currently hurting a certain tradition rich school.
If Alabama in football or Duke in basketball set up what essentially would be a professional team on campus that practiced with and in support of the college program all while offering post grad employment to Jose current student athletes there would be no question as to that setup being a violation of a handful of NCAA rules.
Because that setup happens in a non-revenue minor sport and that setup is supported but the USAW it just doesn’t hit the NCAA’s radar.
I like that list of Oklahomans. This year we had 3 Oklahomans that were AAs. From the list I would say Roller is equal to Boo and Gruenwald is equal to Sheets. Fix, although not a champ yet is on Hendricks and Thompson level.
Mix the Oklahomans in with Rosholt, Esposito, Pendleton, and Mocco.
Oklahoma has enough high end talent to push us over the top.
There have been Oklahomans lately that have shown the talent, but didn’t have the grind it takes. Is that just bad luck? I think it is. I trust that the coaches motivate and try to get them out of their rut, sometimes it just doesn’t work out.
My hope would be that a team leader comes along that pushes their teammates. That way the motivation comes from within and the coaches aren’t having to try to figure out how to motivate undisciplined wrestlers. Watching a true freshman dominate his way through the NCAA tournament should have lit a fire under some asses.
John better be concerned about OSU first, second, third and fourth.
I’m more of a “lift all boats” person generally but feels like ours is taking on water and no one outside of Stillwater seems too worried about it.
I would generally agree, but Wrestling is in trouble.
It is holding, but there is real danger of injuring Wrestling if 5 schools completely dominate and the other 112 (if every school had Wrestling) decide its not worth the fight. We cannot see more dominoes (Stanford) fall and continue to enjoy this sport.
So, for the health of the sport, the RTC set-up being utilized by Penn State, Iowa, Ohio State, etc. needs to be looked at and tuned in to create more of a level playing field.
On the flip side, if its going away, lets go out with a bang!
I hope we embrace the RTC schematics. We could have regional RTCs like they have in (I think) Jersey. Princeton and Rutgers share the same program. I sure do appreciate John’s concern for the health of the sport, but many of the Universities have RTCs now or have access to one (i maybe way off). I think instead of trying to hold back the tide, we should embrace it and raise the funds for all schools to have or be able to have access to a RTC. Think of the money that would flow into our sport. Paid coaches, paid wrestlers, a future in wrestling for wrestlers, dominate the world stage in wrestling.
RTC opportunities are available to all Wrestlers that excel (big names at NCAAs) in March. Hell, Stanford has one and they are leaving.
Here is a link to the locations of all RTCs.
But per the discussion, I think there needs to be some modification to the situation.
IMO, there should be one RTC per state. Each school that fundraises for the center gets an influence (coach) at that school. Any Wrestler in the country that competes above the HS level can workout at the RTC. The administration of said RTC should be an unattached person that sits for four years before they have to quit or move to another RTC.
Each RTC gets an equal allocation of funds from the NCAA, which gives the NCAA some guardianship over the actions of an RTC. But, clear rules are implemented that allow Wrestlers (competing NCAA or abroad) an ability to train, work and be paid by the RTC.
Example: Ferrari won a NC and wants to be an Olympian. He can workout at the RTC, train other Wrestlers, partake in camps at a monthly salary. These Wrestlers can also profit from the use of their likeness and receive monetary endorsements, but in the form of an approved investment that cannot be utilized until after eligibility has expired.
Nice. I can’t help but think maybe 1to2 per state to make it more accessible to all wrestlers, even in big states, that can support 2, ie, one closer to OKC and one closer to Tulsa. I really like the suggestions. What about those closer to state lines that are closer to a RTC in another state, maybe they can attend an RTC that makes more locational (my own word) sense? Very nice
Yeah, I said that any competing Wrestler in the nation, above HS level can workout at the RTC...which meant to say, ANY RTC.
Sorry, I am not a gifted writer.
But anyway, you like? It would level the playing field quite a bit (tradition rich would still dominate) and would possibly create a decent amount of interest.
Like a Pro, paid circuit with state vs. state duals and an end of year tourney, called the Super Bowl Series of a sport much better than Basketball...or something?
Funding for RTC’s are likely only sustainable if they are connected to highly competitive college wrestling programs and their rabid fan base who will support them because it directly benefits their college program.
That’s the rub because not every program can do it and they operate best case in a grey area of amateurism rules and NCAA regulations.
That’s the rub because not every program can do it and they operate best case in a grey area of amateurism rules and NCAA regulations.
After years of flourishing now, it's probably time to stop suggesting that they operate in a "grey area". They're operating out in the bright sunlight and producing results for our top competitors. At this point if we're not vigorously pursuing one in Stillwater, it's got to be for reasons other than "that might be shady and get shut down quick".
I meant “grey” area in terms of potential violations. No question they are functioning out in the open.
We have a HC and AD who are very leery with the setup and how they are potentially (although I think it’s clear) in violation of several NCAA rules and until there is clarity from the NCAA on this issue I don’t think we will dive in as others have.
Personally I think we should be full steam ahead in our building and funding ours.
Rather than being killed off by the NCAA and going extinct, RTCs are evolving.
- We've seen various RTC events over the last 8 months. That could potentially develop into a pro league.
- We've seen the advent of free agency. Plenty of guys have switched RTCs in the past 2 years (non alums like Snyder, Gilman & Alex). Mark Hall was the #1 recruit in the 2016 class. He put his 4 years in at PSU and then joined the UPenn RTC immediately after graduating.
- We've seen various RTC events over the last 8 months. That could potentially develop into a pro league.
- We've seen the advent of free agency. Plenty of guys have switched RTCs in the past 2 years (non alums like Snyder, Gilman & Alex). Mark Hall was the #1 recruit in the 2016 class. He put his 4 years in at PSU and then joined the UPenn RTC immediately after graduating.
We have a cowboy RTC correct? It just sounds other RTCs are paying more. If it is a grey area then why would we have one at all? Paying an athlete like Derek White or Alex Dieringer $100k(I don’t know how much they make) or $25k, you are still paying them and breaking the grey area rules that everyone seems concerned with. Are we in the light grey area and Penn State is in the charcoal, nearly black area?
Can a college football player like Spencer Sanders workout with a pro like Dax Prescott on a daily basis?
Can a college football player like Spencer Sanders workout with a pro like Dax Prescott on a daily basis?
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You are exactly right.
I've been trying to understand our (John's) position on RTCs for years.
I’m fine with John’s position on it. Just go find 2 or 3 more Daton Fix and AJ Ferrari level wrestlers. Problem solved.
I’m not sure there is any guarantee at Penn State that winning gets you a spot. Hard to win more than Mark Hall and he is at Penn. If there was a guarantee, why would they bring in Gilman and Snyder? You would think doing that would piss off any other young Penn State guys. If it is that they have more money to offer RTC guys then what is different than the rest of the world. Money talks.
I’m not sure there is any guarantee at Penn State that winning gets you a spot. Hard to win more than Mark Hall and he is at Penn. If there was a guarantee, why would they bring in Gilman and Snyder? You would think doing that would piss off any other young Penn State guys. If it is that they have more money to offer RTC guys then what is different than the rest of the world. Money talks.
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RTC’s aren’t illegal. It’s the connection with universities, funding ties to the university, and professional athletes interacting with amateur athletes that are the known issues with the NCAA.
From there it’s the assumption (and likelihood) of financial promises and promised post-grad opportunities that are made or insinuated to undergrad athletes during recruiting that are another issue.
I think it's a pretty safe assumption that Alex wasn't wrestling for free the past 4 years, so we can throw out the "gray area" theory.
Not engaging in bidding wars is completely different. I don't agree with it, but who cares. Even so, we don't have to have World & National Team members in the room. They probably get $100K+/year. We could still have AA type post grads. They probably get something like $50-$75K. It would be fantastic if AJ had Snyder as a training partner. But even someone like Hayden Zillmer would be a big plus. And if we don't want to pay someone like him, then I don't know what else to say.
Not engaging in bidding wars is completely different. I don't agree with it, but who cares. Even so, we don't have to have World & National Team members in the room. They probably get $100K+/year. We could still have AA type post grads. They probably get something like $50-$75K. It would be fantastic if AJ had Snyder as a training partner. But even someone like Hayden Zillmer would be a big plus. And if we don't want to pay someone like him, then I don't know what else to say.
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