Are you saying we should get only high level college athletes or pay money to bring in senior wrestlers? I just wasn’t clear on it
NCAA
- Thread starter Mrgrapple
- Start date
Many people say we need the RTC to compete with other schools and bring in high level talent.....and then also develop that talent.
If we had 3 or 4 more wrestlers that were scoring points at the NCAA tournament like Daton and AJ, annually, would we even be discussing RTCs?
If we had 3 or 4 more wrestlers that were scoring points at the NCAA tournament like Daton and AJ, annually, would we even be discussing RTCs?
Win if you can, lose if you must, but ALWAYS cheat.
Thats the rub... Without an RTC to sell can we get enough of those level of kids to commit over programs that have all that RTC’s offer.
Also there is a question if we can develop guys to the same level as those programs with robust fully funded RTC’s.
I think the biggest advantage of an RTC is it gives our wrestlers higher end talent to role with. The senior level athletes are usually the crem della crem in college. As the saying goes, iron sharpens iron
I think the saying "money talks, bullshit walks" applies better.
Didn’t Alex take more money at Michigan? I’d read where his girlfriend is there.
Here is how Michigan did at NCAAs:
165-Cam Amine finished 7th
174- Logan Massa finished 5th
184- no qualifier
197- M Amine finished 2nd
HWT- Parris finished 2nd
Who would be rolling around with Alex? Those two big boys?
Here is how Michigan did at NCAAs:
165-Cam Amine finished 7th
174- Logan Massa finished 5th
184- no qualifier
197- M Amine finished 2nd
HWT- Parris finished 2nd
Who would be rolling around with Alex? Those two big boys?
Alex had ACL surgery in October, so he didn't get much of an opportunity to train with the Michigan guys this season. When healthy, he probably works with their 165s-197s.
It'd be great to have Derek, Alex, Jordan, and heck even Dean in the room with our team. That would be huge especially for the young guys! The coaches can only be in so many places at once. Reality is though those guys have to pay their bills somehow... if OSU won't/can't pay them, they'll go somewhere that can. Then again, maybe I don't understand RTCs very well.
After our great showing at NCAAs, I'm more okay with no RTC at OSU. I mean, there's a ton of uncertainty around it, and it's pretty righteous that we placed third with no RTC. That's the highest placing program without one, and we beat several programs with one. Have to trust either John and the AD to pursue what's allowed, or trust the NCAA to enforce rules consistently. And in no way is the NCAA trustworthy in that regard. It is interesting to me, as mentioned in another thread, that many of our alums continue to train with no real opportunity to make the Olympic team. Come back and coach already!
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I think you’re correct about the money. I 100% agree that we kicked some major bitty without an proper RTC. Got to wonder how Daton would have done with a couple extra senior level guys to wrestle with in the room. I think John feels that big RTCs hurt the mid to lower level schools that don’t have that advantage. I do admire his position looking at wrestling as a whole. It maybe all-for-naught. The big schools are pouring big money into them already. It will happen, I’m just hoping sooner than later
Not just Daton either. You think it would've helped Boo to go against JO every week? Jordan has now helped groom 2 champs - Yianni when he was training at Cornell and Austin O'Connor at UNC this year.
Not to mention not much competition in the room for AJ
Jake Rosholt, Mocco, Esposito, Johnny Hendricks, Chris Pendleton, Dean Heil, Jordan Oliver, Alex Dieringer, AJ Ferrari, Coleman Scott, Daton Fix have all done very well without an RTC. Studs are studs. Need more of them.
How many Olympic medals does Penn State have in their RTC from Penn State guys? Zero? How many Olympians has Penn State produced recently? I just looked it up. 6 wrestlers in their history, so recent isn’t much. Frank Molinaro finished 5th in 2016. It looks like zero medals in their history. If you look at their Wikipedia page it shows that they have 3 gold medals in Wrestling because they count former and current staff. Lou Banach, Cael Sanderson, and Jake Varner. John Smith has more Olympic medals than their entire program ever. If I’m a young guy that wants to learn it would be from the best that ever laced them up. If you want to win Olympic gold come to Stillwater. If you want to be in a fancy RTC that hasn’t produced much, well there are options. I’ll be long gone before Penn State even gets close to half of our records...if they ever do.
How many Olympic medals does Penn State have in their RTC from Penn State guys? Zero? How many Olympians has Penn State produced recently? I just looked it up. 6 wrestlers in their history, so recent isn’t much. Frank Molinaro finished 5th in 2016. It looks like zero medals in their history. If you look at their Wikipedia page it shows that they have 3 gold medals in Wrestling because they count former and current staff. Lou Banach, Cael Sanderson, and Jake Varner. John Smith has more Olympic medals than their entire program ever. If I’m a young guy that wants to learn it would be from the best that ever laced them up. If you want to win Olympic gold come to Stillwater. If you want to be in a fancy RTC that hasn’t produced much, well there are options. I’ll be long gone before Penn State even gets close to half of our records...if they ever do.
AJ is a special talent. Kyle Dake & J'den Cox also won titles as true freshmen without anyone pushing them in the room. AJ is the same caliber.
I don't think training with senior athletes increases the risk of injury. USAW has the Cadet, Junior & Senior World teams all practice together to help with development. They also run the Elite Accelerator Program (EAP). Rocky Elam spent his senior year of HS at the OTC training with J'den.
Also, look at PSU's champs and their training partners - RBY/Gilman, Nick Lee/Retherford, Starocci/Nolf, Brooks/Taylor. That's not a coincidence IMO. All 8 of them qualified for this year's Trials.
I’m not sure. We’ve had a ton of injuries without world class senior level athletes and other programs have had less injuries with top notch senior level athletes. It could be happenstance, over training, too much live wrestling and not enough play wrestling. I remember getting hurt mire with beginner wrestlers that wrestlers with experience
Those first guys you mentioned achieved that prior to the recent surge and popularity of college tied RTC programs. So they are a little irrelevant to the current conversation.
It’s also not necessarily about the ability to get one or two guys who are special elite level wrestlers to win national titles. It’s about the advantage those programs with large well funded RTCs have in recruitment and development. I mean look at the performance of PSU over the last decade. Their stars turn into dominant all timer types and the guys a notch below over-perform and excel in March.
The RBY Daton match up was evidence of that and a warming sign IMO of the potential widening gap between those that do and those that don’t.
We will have a really good case study to follow over the next 4 years in Stillwater and for our programs sake it needs to work out in our favor.
Like the research. Numbers don't lie! But I'd be more stoked to have our guys training with olympians than to brag about our RTC getting medals. That's my selfish viewpoint
So maybe success isn't about having an RTC... it's about getting studs in the room in any way possible. Those studs can either be on our team or be post-college guys training for something else. Heck, OSU has been a good route for MMA fighters, it'd be cool if Nicky Picc or Daniel Cormier or that other huge dude with a bunch of tattoos could train for MMA in Stillwater. Lord knows that yes iron sharpens iron, but also those MMA dudes could be mentoring our wrestlers AND teaching them some legal techniques that they've learned in MMA. Incorporating some MMA techniques would sure throw some opponents for a loop.
I'm thinking that having senior level guys in the room would also reduce injuries. They've been there, done that, and can probably spot mistakes in training that lead to injuries. Just a conjecture.
I feel like our injuries are the same as every other school. We just know about all of the OSU injuries. I could rattle off a list of Penn St and Iowa injuries, but I’m not sure it’s worth the time.
This is a good point. Definitely some positives recently - recruiting is up and we wrestled our best at Nationals. Will it continue? Will it be enough? The next 4-5 years will answer a lot of questions.
Mineo retweeted this the other day. Kind of explains the RTC dilemma.
I’d love to have all of the resources in the world and bend the rules in our favor. Neither are happening. Fix, AJ, a healthy Plott, Wittlake. That’s a pretty good nucleus. Keep getting better, add a few more guys to that, and we are to be reckoned with.
this thinking is where we are at as a program
the ncaa is not breaking down
penn st ohio st and iowa wrestling over RTC
violations
any argument?
See 2020-2021 OSU Basketball for a recent example. I don't know much about the NCAA but it feels like an organization very much driven by money, politics, and personality. It's tough when there's no oversight over the oversight organization.
