NCAA new rule change considerations

[mike tognetti]

1 point Near Fall for back exposure of one count
Eliminate two-point near fall; instead award three back points for a three count.
Push-out, but not from a scramble situation
Allow MMA-type gear instead of singlets
Home team wears dark uniform and Away team wears light uniform to make it easier for fans to identify the teams.
First takedown in the first period is worth three points
Falls are worth 7 points
Major Decision at 6 points instead of 8
Tech Fall at 10 points instead of 15
Riding time is only awarded if you have scored back points
When defending a takedown it is illegal to claps hands around the attacker's torso

 

[osu2082]

Originally posted by mike tognetti:



1 point Near Fall for back exposure of one count Eliminate two-point near fall; instead award three back points for a three count. Push-out, but not from a scramble situation Allow MMA-type gear instead of singlets Home team wears dark uniform and Away team wears light uniform to make it easier for fans to identify the teams. First takedown in the first period is worth three points Falls are worth 7 points Major Decision at 6 points instead of 8 Tech Fall at 10 points instead of 15 Riding time is only awarded if you have scored back points When defending a takedown it is illegal to claps hands around the attacker's torso

I like them all except 3 & 4. Going from 15 to 10 for a tech seems like a big jump. 12 would make more sense. The riding time is tough as you hate to take it out of most matches but some modified rule on it probably wouldn't hurt. I just think any takedown should be 3 points.

 

[NEcowboy]

What!?!? On a scale of 1 to 10, how good are your sources Mike? When are they considering making these changes? Is it an all or nothing deal or will they vote on each one individually? Some of these will dramatically change the sport, which I'm all for. Some quick initial reactions......

1. This really depends on how well the ref understands the sport. Being able to anticipate a tilt or whatever and be in position to call the nearfall will make a huge difference....or it will lead to endless replays, when coaches go crazy and make a fuss.

2. I like it.

3. I like the idea. but a "scramble situation" is so subjective. This one will take some time to iron out, but could be a game changer. Those teams with smaller mats, OSU included, will have to really think about expanding.

4. Sure. Why not? I'm not married to the singlet and if wearing an outfit that doesn't impede the action, entices viewers and young athletes, then do it.

5. Easy enough

6. Love it. I think TDs should be 3 pts anyway.

7. Anything to increase the wrestlers desire to go after the pin, I'm for.

8 and 9. Why not? Hard to predict how this will affect the coaches' strategies and the tactics on the mat, but it seems that it would motivate a wrestler to score quick.

10. Love it. I'm pretty sure the riding time point as single handedly assassinated more new fans than anything else.

11. I like this one too. Anything to keep a wrestler from locking up a move that essentially ends in a stalemate 70% of the time, I'm for.

These would be some legit changes that I think would really benefit OSU in recruiting and on the mat success.

 

[skylinepoke]

Originally posted by osu2082:

Originally posted by mike tognetti:



1 point Near Fall for back exposure of one count Eliminate two-point near fall; instead award three back points for a three count. Push-out, but not from a scramble situation Allow MMA-type gear instead of singlets Home team wears dark uniform and Away team wears light uniform to make it easier for fans to identify the teams. First takedown in the first period is worth three points Falls are worth 7 points Major Decision at 6 points instead of 8 Tech Fall at 10 points instead of 15 Riding time is only awarded if you have scored back points When defending a takedown it is illegal to claps hands around the attacker's torso

I like them all except 3 & 4. Going from 15 to 10 for a tech seems like a big jump. 12 would make more sense. The riding time is tough as you hate to take it out of most matches but some modified rule on it probably wouldn't hurt. I just think any takedown should be 3 points.

I'm with 2082.

 

[osukev1988]

how about 8 points, major, 12 points superior, 16 tfall and score it 3win, 4maj ,5sup, 6tfall, and 7 for the pin for the team points.
i also love most of these suggestions, especially going out of bounds.....i dont care if it is scramble or not, dont leave the circle or it is at least a stall call if not a point....no matter why you leave there is no excuse, circle back in or shoot.....it is already a rule in the olympics which many of these kids aspire to go to anyways.

 

[mike tognetti]

A son of a Iowa poster got it from the NCAA annual survey yesterday. It would sure change folkstyle wrestling and get closer to freestyle.

 

[jud0ka]

1 point Near Fall for back exposure of one count Eliminate two-point near fall; instead award three back points for a three count. Push-out, but not from a scramble situation Allow MMA-type gear instead of singlets Home team wears dark uniform and Away team wears light uniform to make it easier for fans to identify the teams. First takedown in the first period is worth three points Falls are worth 7 points Major Decision at 6 points instead of 8 Tech Fall at 10 points instead of 15 Riding time is only awarded if you have scored back points When defending a takedown it is illegal to claps hands around the attacker's torso
1. God no. Folkstyle is about control, not exposure. Cheap tilts are bad enough already. If you can't hold them there then you don't have control and you aren't legitimately putting them at risk of a pin, which is what a near fall is supposed to reward.
2. I don't have any strong feelings one way or another on this one.
3. NO! NO! NO! All this does is reward a wrestlers who pushes forward without attempting to wrestle. And the wide disparity of talent levels means that lots of matches will become sumo with the stronger wrestler winning rather than the better wrestler. The stalling rules exist, just call them, don't mess with something fundamental like this. Or, better yet, go the route that Judo took to deal with people playing the edge, where they made it so there is no advantage to be on the edge vs, the middle - any technique that starts in bounds scores no matter where you land, even if you're halfway across the gym before you finish. A scramble situation out of bounds is only stopped for a stalemate or a score. If they absolutely are dead set on calling push out then I think it should be called like stalling with at least one warning before a point is awarded. But I'd rather it didn't come up at all.
4. I'm indifferent on this one. Though I don't want to see fight shorts, too much to grab on to, and I don't want to see matches stopped because somebody's shirt is riding up. But if people would rather wear something more like a compression shirt on top then whatever.
5. I like this idea
6. I'm okay with this one, not thrilled, but okay with it.
7. Don't like it, a fall is already worth as much as two decisions. With this change a meet with three pins for one team and seven decisions for the other would be 21-21. Right now dual meets stress matchups and ability to hide holes as much as they stress strength. That extra point would tilt it more to tournament scoring where having a strong wrestler at a few weights is all that matters.
8. Don't like it, see 7
9. Terrible, Terrible, Terrible idea. See 7
10. Don't like it - Riding time is supposed to exist to reward a guy who rides but is unable to turn. This defeats the purpose and just makes it a bonus point for having turned a guy.
11. I like this one a lot, I feel that right now balance is tilted far to much towards defensive, counter wrestlers and I like any rule changes that move things towards rewarding guys who take risks with offensive moves.

This post was edited on 2/25 8:10 AM by jud0ka

 

[Old Number Nine]

1) 1 point Near Fall for back exposure of one count
I'm OK with this as it minimizes the value of a cheap tilt. If you're not going for the pin it's worth less.

2) Eliminate two-point near fall; instead award three back points for a three count.
Same as above

3) Push-out, but not from a scramble situation
I don't like this, no freestyle rules please. If you go out on your own it's a warning (non-scramble). If you're trying to hold your ground (not just backing out) and are pushed out I believe that you're opponent should be penalized (stale warning) for pushing you out. Pushing is not wrestling unless you're from Iowa; why would you encourage this?

4) Allow MMA-type gear instead of singlets
I'm not familiar with MMA so I have no opinion

5) Home team wears dark uniform and Away team wears light uniform to make it easier for fans to identify the teams.
I'm fine with this but teams should be free to choose light/dark for home/away as I like Orange.

6) First takedown in the first period is worth three points
I don't like this as I think it would discourage offense. Many (sadly most) wrestlers are already happy to get that one takedown and set on it the rest of the match when it takes only one takedown to beat them. I can't imagine how much that will increase if it takes two takedowns to overcome that one.

7) Falls are worth 7 points
This is great along with what osukev stated; dec-3pts, 8pt major-4pts, 12 pt superior-5pts, 15 tfall-5pts and fall-7pts

8) Major Decision at 6 points instead of 8
Too low threshold of greatness, see above

9) Tech Fall at 10 points instead of 15
Too low threshold of greatness, see above

10) Riding time is only awarded if you have scored back points
I'm ok with this as I'm all for rules that discourage riding just for the sake of riding; you should be going for the pin. If the rider pushes his opponent OB after he has gotten to his feet; warning (see #3 above). As soon as the wrestler gets to his feet; verbal 5 count to take him to the mat or warning.

How about this; if you have more than 1 minute riding time and you get a three-count NF you get 4 pts and your riding time is decremented 1 minute. If you continue to ride until you ride time is again above 1 minute a three-count NF would be worth another 4 pts. However, if your opponent turns the table and rides you until your new, decremented ride time is erased and he gets a minute, his NF will be worth 4pts.

11) When defending a takedown it is illegal to claps hands around the attacker's torso
This is great along; I'm for anything that discourages stalling. If a wrestler goes to his knees and doesn't shoot in, say, two counts; that's stalling and should be a warning.

 

[jud0ka]

I assume by "MMA Gear" they really mean no-gi grappling gear, which is shorts (either fight shorts of compression shorts) and a compression shirt.

 

[buf87]

#1 - I have a problem with reaction time. Similar to takedowns now. I think there needs to be a certain amount of reaction time. I am fine with the rules on takedowns on the edge, but in the middle of the mat, needs to be some reaction.

 

[OSUMatFan]

I like the idea of a tech fall ending much earlier. When at match differential is at 10 points we know who is going to win the match. Watching some poor kid get punished for seven minutes is just boring. Not so sure about the Superior decision issue, but a major at 6 is still a butt kicking.

I personally like the pushout rule and find it boring when someone hangs to the edge of the mat.

These rules are not about what makes Oklahoma State better, they are about making wrestling more fun to watch.

I say this, but my favorite two matches last year were the Big 12 finals and the NCAA finals at 174. I just loved soaking in Chris Perry's mat strategy. Anybody that uses strategy like that will be successful in whatever he pursues.

 

[lookleft goright]

I do not think you want to do anything with the way they call out of bounds now. I think all the wrestling on the edge as long as there is one point in bounds is exciting.

Now if you want to call a push out from standing, maybe that is OK. However, I do not want to get into another situation where one guy is just pushing the other out of bounds and never takes a shot. That is not wrestling at all.

Maybe limit the push out to once a match or something and the guy has to be on at least 2 points and the offensive wrestler has to be on his feet. In other words, 1 guy can't get a single up in the air and then walk the other guy off the mat and get a point for a push out.

 

[oberebo]

1. Do not like it. Eliminates strategies from the bottom position. What about a granby, wouldn't that be back exposure Any time you are awarded a point on a roll through you are being rewarded unfairly.
2. I like this idea.
3.Eliminate the push out completely. However backing off the mat or leaving the mat to escape being taken down should be stalling and award the offensive wrestler a point.
4. No!
5.. I like this idea.
6. Yes
7. No
8. No
9. Yes
10. I am inclined to agree with this change.
11. No
This post was edited on 2/25 4:23 PM by oberebo

 

[buf87]

If takedowns stay at no reaction time, a lot of 1 count tilts could be called at the same time. To much judgment put on the official. Do not like #1

 

[NEcowboy]

Agree with OSUMatfan. This discussion should not be about what any of us personally find exciting or boring. We are all wrestling fans and will likely continue to be wrestling fans even if there are rule changes we don't like. It's about making the sport attractive to a larger, younger audience that will make up the support base in years to come.

I'm not criticizing, but I'd venture to say most of the posters on this board (and most wrestling boards for that matter) are men between the ages of 40 and 65. Time to come to terms with the fact that these rule changes are not terribly concerned with what we think and more concerned with the sport's appeal to kids between 10 and 25 years old.

 

[oberebo]

Well I am not between 40 and 65 but I think you are making a wrong assumption if you have decided that youths 15t-25 would agree with all of the changes. Some I agree with and some I do not. I would say this applies to most everyone and that includes your youth group. They would not be the same rules in many instances. However, I will go to the grave believing that the "push out" rule is the worst rule in wrestling. If you like big fat Japanese men wrestling sumo then I guess you can like it but it is not a skill move and deserves no reward. If you go off the mat to avoid being taken down or you continually back off mat then that is stalling and I would not be against awarding two points for stalling in this case.

 

[OSUMatFan]

My wrestling career was very brief. My strengths were riding and escaping. When I was wrestling someone I did not think I could take down I would get my back to the edge of the mat and counter with the best of them. If I was in fear of being taken down, I found a way to get off of the mat. If my counter would work I would keep the action on the mat.

Face it I was boring to watch, but since I wrestled the last half of my senior year and intermurals in college I had very little take down technique. I played to my strengths and won more matches than my skill sets should have allowed. I did not wrestle to entertain, but had there been a pushout rule I would not have had my back to the edge of the mat. I would have dove for a leg and held on for two minutes.

As with managing employees and raising children. Reward the behavior you want!

 

[jud0ka]

Originally posted by oberebo:

Well I am not between 40 and 65 but I think you are making a wrong assumption if you have decided that youths 15t-25 would agree with all of the changes. Some I agree with and some I do not. I would say this applies to most everyone and that includes your youth group. They would not be the same rules in many instances. However, I will go to the grave believing that the "push out" rule is the worst rule in wrestling. If you like big fat Japanese men wrestling sumo then I guess you can like it but it is not a skill move and deserves no reward. If you go off the mat to avoid being taken down or you continually back off mat then that is stalling and I would not be against awarding two points for stalling in this case.

I dunno about two points. But I totally agree with you about the push out. I think it is an absolutely, utterly, completely terrible idea for Folkstyle wrestling. If somebody is stalling, call it. There's no need for anything else.

 

[J. Carl]

I'm confused about the proposal of "dark uniform-light uniform" idea. Has anyone ever had trouble distinguishing which team is which in a dual match?

 

[ISUChip]

Originally posted by J. Carl:
I'm confused about the proposal of "dark uniform-light uniform" idea. Has anyone ever had trouble distinguishing which team is which in a dual match?

Personally, I'd push for names on singlets instead of a dark/light contrast -- and even then, primarily for a tournament setting where a school could have 3-4 guys wrestling at the same time (especially open tournaments). Would make it a lot easier on SIDs/media/broadcasters.

 

[buf87]

The singlet colors is not a big deal for me. I would like to see unattached wrestlers wearing Iowa State colors or something. At Harold Nichols open, always hard to tell who our guys (esp New true freshman) when everybody is in something different.

 

[OSUMatFan]

Apparently the ref got confused in the Gilman vs, Waters match at the National duals and charged Watters a penalty point for slamming Gilman when Watters feet had not touched the mat for 10 seconds prior to the slam.

 

[buf87]

Correct, slam was charged to Waters, not sure what is thought he saw

 

[NEcowboy]

Hell I'm not pretending to know what 15-25 year olds think, I'm just saying it's worth considering that we ought to change the way we think when we discuss rule changes. Of course it's not a zero sum game for anyone...some of the rules are worth inclusion, some aren't. Why not try them and find out instead of killing them on supposition?

Regarding the push out rule, I'd hate to see college wrestling descend into a sumo pushing contest. There's nothing that makes me cringe more than watching Iowa hang on the head and bull their opponent around the mat until they get frustrated and take a bad shot. Maybe the push out rule is a terrible idea, but there needs to be something in place to keep guys on the mat and engaged. Stalling calls are so subjective and too often depend on the ref, the crowd, the hollering coach, or whatever, so I hesitate to say it should be left to the ref to decide when a guy is fleeing or when a guy's defensive move takes him off the mat. It's tough call either way.

 

[oberebo]

I'm also not predicting what 15-25 year olds like and I am sorry it did come out that way. I agree with you that some are good rules and some are not. We probably agree that the 15-25 age group like more offensive action and giving three points for the first takedown might help and also no riding time unless back points are scored would probably be another. I am also concerned about how stalling is called. It depends on what part of the country, who is ahead in the match, vocal fans and coaches in some instances. It should not depend on any of those factors. I know all refs are supposed to follow set rules and conditions on this but obviously they do not.

You could also give the offensive wrestler a point on a leg shot which is countered by grabbing his leg for a stalemate. This however would lead to some refs calling it and some not. I am not against the refs, I think most of them do their best and are totally objective in their calls. We have two of the best in the entire country in Pat Fitzgerald and Kenny Ritchie and yet they are given a bad time by unknowledgeable fans who want stalling called the first time the opponent backs up. These two refs consistently grade out at the top of refs at nationals.