Mea Culpa

[Ponca Dan]

I was wrong about a Russian invasion of Ukraine. I did not think Putin would invade because I didn’t think he needed to, that he could get his way about Donbas without firing a shot. I miscalculated, and I think he may have miscalculated, too. Western Ukraine may become Russia's “Afghanistan” for the next 20 years. He wants NATO abolished, but this action only proves to NATO advocates that it is needed now more than ever. In the meantime innocent civilians are being murdered while watching their homes and cities be turned into rubble. What Putin is doing is unconscionable and deserves condemnation from every angle. From my perspective he had the moral high ground and he just pissed it away.

 

[ClintonDavidScott]

I was wrong about a Russian invasion of Ukraine. I did not think Putin would invade because I didn’t think he needed to, that he could get his way about Donbas without firing a shot. I miscalculated, and I think he may have miscalculated, too. Western Ukraine may become Russia's “Afghanistan” for the next 20 years. He wants NATO abolished, but this action only proves to NATO advocates that it is needed now more than ever. In the meantime innocent civilians are being murdered while watching their homes and cities be turned into rubble. What Putin is doing is unconscionable and deserves condemnation from every angle. From my perspective he had the moral high ground and he just pissed it away.

That he ever held any conceivable moral high ground in your mind is troubling, Dan. I don’t even understand how that’s possible as an American.

 

[OKSTATE1]

I was wrong about a Russian invasion of Ukraine. I did not think Putin would invade because I didn’t think he needed to, that he could get his way about Donbas without firing a shot. I miscalculated, and I think he may have miscalculated, too. Western Ukraine may become Russia's “Afghanistan” for the next 20 years. He wants NATO abolished, but this action only proves to NATO advocates that it is needed now more than ever. In the meantime innocent civilians are being murdered while watching their homes and cities be turned into rubble. What Putin is doing is unconscionable and deserves condemnation from every angle. From my perspective he had the moral high ground and he just pissed it away.

The human suffering is going to be unimaginable. It is horrible, deeply saddening. Let’s hope he stops in Ukraine and does not take Poland and this is not a coordinated effort with China and China invades Taiwan. The US right now from a leadership and military preparedness perspective (lost $85B in equipment and an airbase in Afghanistan), as well as a CIC leadership perspective (Brandon totally dismissed the military’s own findings on Afghanistan which killed morale) is not ready for a 2 front war. I hope we have the right mix of diversity training to fight a potential world war, glad that was a priority as well as Milley understanding white anger. I am really concerned Russia and China see a once in a 200 year opportunity to take advantage of the worst leadership position the US has ever been in. We lost the trust with NATO Allie’s with how the US left Afghanistan, not if we needed to go.

Pray Russia stops in Ukraine, China does not make a move on Taiwan, and Iran rolls out nukes. This Prez is ill equipped mentally and from a leadership perspective to handle this.

 

[DCandtheUTBand]

I was wrong about a Russian invasion of Ukraine. I did not think Putin would invade because I didn’t think he needed to, that he could get his way about Donbas without firing a shot. I miscalculated, and I think he may have miscalculated, too. Western Ukraine may become Russia's “Afghanistan” for the next 20 years. He wants NATO abolished, but this action only proves to NATO advocates that it is needed now more than ever. In the meantime innocent civilians are being murdered while watching their homes and cities be turned into rubble. What Putin is doing is unconscionable and deserves condemnation from every angle. From my perspective he had the moral high ground and he just pissed it away.

He never had the moral high ground.

Now if American troops and planes were on the airfields in Kiev do you think he would dare hit them with cruise missiles?

Since Neville Obiden ruled out troops from the beginning what help are we going to offer?

Ukraine will need weapons capable of denying Herr Putin air superiority.

Putting our troops in now would be very dangerous. The time to have done it was before Putin invaded. In brinkmanship between nuke powers , he who has the ground holds it.

It is time however to mass our troops in Poland and the Baltics as we institute our version of the Ho Chi Mihn trail to Ukraine.

 

[DCandtheUTBand]

The human suffering is going to be unimaginable. It is horrible, deeply saddening. Let’s hope he stops in Ukraine and does not take Poland and this is not a coordinated effort with China and China invades Taiwan. The US right now from a leadership and military preparedness perspective (lost $85B in equipment and an airbase in Afghanistan), as well as a CIC leadership perspective (Brandon totally dismissed the military’s own findings on Afghanistan which killed morale) is not ready for a 2 front war. I hope we have the right mix of diversity training to fight a potential world war, glad that was a priority as well as Milley understanding white anger. I am really concerned Russia and China see a once in a 200 year opportunity to take advantage of the worst leadership position the US has ever been in. We lost the trust with NATO Allie’s with how the US left Afghanistan, not if we needed to go.

Pray Russia stops in Ukraine, China does not make a move on Taiwan, and Iran rolls out nukes. This Prez is ill equipped mentally and from a leadership perspective to handle this.

Poland is in NATO and it will mean WW3. China can be thwarted by positioning carriers in international waters between China and Taiwan with an explicit declaration of defense should China attack. And Israel will take care of Iran if they develop a nuke.

 

[osu_orangestreak]

He never had the moral high ground.

Now if American troops and planes were on the airfields in Kiev do you think he would dare hit them with cruise missiles?

Since Neville Obiden ruled out troops from the beginning what help are we going to offer?

Ukraine will need weapons capable of denying Herr Putin air superiority.

Putting our troops in now would be very dangerous. The time to have done it was before Putin invaded. In brinkmanship between nuke powers , he who has the ground holds it.

It is time however to mass our troops in Poland and the Baltics as we institute our version of the Ho Chi Mihn trail to Ukraine.

There should have been an international peace keeping force spread all over the country. Almost like a UN human shield. No way he attacks them.

 

[aix_xpert]

Honest question: Is the fighting contained to the two so-called independent states? Or is he shelling Kiev? My cursory reads haven't been clear about where the fighting is actually happening, other than "in Ukraine".

 

[OUSOONER67]

Honest question: Is the fighting contained to the two so-called independent states? Or is he shelling Kiev? My cursory reads haven't been clear about where the fighting is actually happening, other than "in Ukraine".

Bombs have been heard in Kiev aka Kyiv

 

[DCandtheUTBand]

Honest question: Is the fighting contained to the two so-called independent states? Or is he shelling Kiev? My cursory reads haven't been clear about where the fighting is actually happening, other than "in Ukraine".

I was watching BBC World and the live correspondent in Kiev was talking about explosions in the distance. Russia admitted that they were targeting airfields and military infrastructure with high precision missiles. Indian news reports that Vladimir Hitler has lost 5 planes and one Helo so far. Lets hope Indian news is correct and that Adolph Putin is about to draw back a nub.

 

[aix_xpert]

I'll Mea Culpa as well. I didn't think he would invade, as it didn't make sense to me. But Putin himself explained his reasoning in his own attack message. “Our analysis has concluded that our confrontation with these [Ukrainian] forces in inevitable.”

He believed that conflict with the West is coming, and that Ukraine would be that proxy. He decided to strike while the West was ill-prepared to handle it, and he's probably right.

The question for the West is simple. Do we surrender Ukraine to its own devices (and likely annexation) and go back to a cold War with Russia, like we had from the 50s till Reagan? Or do we commit to a fighting war with the threat of nuclear, hypersonic, and space weaponry in play? I feel bad for Ukraine, but I don't know how the West doesn't go with the former option.

 

[OUSOONER67]

I was watching BBC World and the live correspondent was talking about explosions in the distance. Russia admitted that they were targeting airfields and military infrastructure. Indian news reports that Vladimir Hitler has lost 5 planes and one Helo so far. Lets hope Indian news is correct and that Adolph Putin is about to draw back a nub.

Likely as close as a comparison to Stalin as well as Hitler. Stalin it is believed killed more than his nemesis.

 

[OUSOONER67]

I'll Mea Culpa as well. I didn't think he would invade, as it didn't make sense to me. But Putin himself explained his reasoning in his own attack message. “Our analysis has concluded that our confrontation with these [Ukrainian] forces in inevitable.”

He believed that conflict with the West is coming, and that Ukraine would be that proxy. He decided to strike while the West was ill-prepared to handle it, and he's probably right.

The question for the West is simple. Do we surrender Ukraine to its own devices (and likely annexation) and go back to a cold War with Russia, like we had from the 50s till Reagan? Or do we commit to a fighting war with the threat of nuclear, hypersonic, and space weaponry in play? I feel bad for Ukraine, but I don't know how the West doesn't go with the former option.

Per Barry, the 80's called and wants their Cold War Policy Back. Any wonder why Putin only acts while Dims are in charge and why he gets away with it?

"President Obama used the stage of a presidential debate to mock Mr. Romney. “Governor Romney, I’m glad that you recognize that al Qaeda’s a threat because a few months ago when you were asked, what’s the biggest geopolitical threat facing America, you said Russia,” Mr. Obama said. “And the 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because, you know, the Cold War’s been over for 20 years.”

(Biden claimed the biggest threat is White Nationalists) smdh

"The media mostly chortled and said how right Mr. Obama was. In April 2012 Joe Biden used a similar attack line in a speech. “When we came to office, President Obama reset our relationship with Russia. . . . But just a month ago, Governor Romney called and here again I quote, ‘without question our number one geopolitical foe’ is Russia. As my brother would say, go figure,” the then Vice President said. “Look, I think it’s fair to say when it comes to Russia, based on only what we know he’s said so far, Governor Romney is mired in a Cold War mindset.”

 

[aix_xpert]

Per Barry, the 80's called and wants their Cold War Policy Back. Any wonder why Putin only acts while Dims are in charge and why he gets away with it?

"President Obama used the stage of a presidential debate to mock Mr. Romney. “Governor Romney, I’m glad that you recognize that al Qaeda’s a threat because a few months ago when you were asked, what’s the biggest geopolitical threat facing America, you said Russia,” Mr. Obama said. “And the 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because, you know, the Cold War’s been over for 20 years.”

"The media mostly chortled and said how right Mr. Obama was. In April 2012 Joe Biden used a similar attack line in a speech. “When we came to office, President Obama reset our relationship with Russia. . . . But just a month ago, Governor Romney called and here again I quote, ‘without question our number one geopolitical foe’ is Russia. As my brother would say, go figure,” the then Vice President said. “Look, I think it’s fair to say when it comes to Russia, based on only what we know he’s said so far, Governor Romney is mired in a Cold War mindset.”

Romney had a good one liner response today: "The 80s called, and we didn't answer."

 

[DCandtheUTBand]

I'll Mea Culpa as well. I didn't think he would invade, as it didn't make sense to me. But Putin himself explained his reasoning in his own attack message. “Our analysis has concluded that our confrontation with these [Ukrainian] forces in inevitable.”

He believed that conflict with the West is coming, and that Ukraine would be that proxy. He decided to strike while the West was ill-prepared to handle it, and he's probably right.

Come on he was full of sh*t. None of that is credible. He decided to strike because he rightly saw weakness and wants to get the old band back together. Russia is in decline and expansion is its main hope for reversing that.

The question for the West is simple. Do we surrender Ukraine to its own devices (and likely annexation) and go back to a cold War with Russia, like we had from the 50s till Reagan? Or do we commit to a fighting war with the threat of nuclear, hypersonic, and space weaponry in play? I feel bad for Ukraine, but I don't know how the West doesn't go with the former option.

Hypersonic glide vehicles are over-rated propaganda. Now a hypersonic cruise missile would be something to write about.

Now sadly there is a 3rd way and that is to support resistance via a covert arming of Ukraine and probable guerrilla warfare. The covert part is only covert as it will need secrecy to avert being taken out by Russian air power. Russia has a very limited amount of 5th gen planes so lets hope our MANPADS are good enough to take out their 4th gen planes and that we can get enough Javelins into the country to smoke his tanks.

 

[aix_xpert]

That he ever held any conceivable moral high ground in your mind is troubling, Dan. I don’t even understand how that’s possible as an American.

2 points of note:

1) If the media had a shred of credibility then maybe there'd be more understanding of who Putin really was as well as belief of the threat going in. But like the boy who cried wolf, we've heard "Russia, Russia, Russia" ever since Hillary lost and frankly the evidence hasn't supported the crying.

2) If the media (and libs in particular) didn't label EVERYONE they dislike as Hitler, then society would better understand who the real 'bad guys' are.

 

[OUSOONER67]

Romney had a good one liner response today: "The 80s called, and we didn't answer."

The dims have been too worried about Peachmints, Pee Tapes, Trumps Kids, Insurrections, never ending Investigations of Trump, Parents voicing their displeasure about whats being taught to their kids, CRT, Climate Change, Build Back Worse, White Nationalists and other shit that doesn't matter. Now look whats happened.

 

[DCandtheUTBand]

How bad must things be when you have to mostly agree with RINO Mitt Romney and nut case Wesley Clark of all people?

Now lets look at what could have happened that no one has done in nearly 40 years.

Gorby tried to bully Reagan and Reagan walked. Reagan's crew about pissed themselves but Gorby relented and Reagan was shown to be right in his approach.

So you get blunt with Putin and his ruse about security. You say Ukraine will be part of the EU and once under that umbrella it might as well be in NATO because the EU will not tolerate a military act against itself.

Now lets deal with your real problem. Lets talk business and how we are going to help you diversify your economy and grow Russia's wealth. Lets get back to your demographic problem. You had a good idea about paying people to pump out babies. Its going to take some rubles. Quit focusing on "wonder" weapons and cozying up to China hoping they eat you last. Put those rubles into your demographics and economic diversification.

 

[Syskatine]

I was wrong about a Russian invasion of Ukraine. I did not think Putin would invade because I didn’t think he needed to, that he could get his way about Donbas without firing a shot. I miscalculated, and I think he may have miscalculated, too. Western Ukraine may become Russia's “Afghanistan” for the next 20 years. He wants NATO abolished, but this action only proves to NATO advocates that it is needed now more than ever. In the meantime innocent civilians are being murdered while watching their homes and cities be turned into rubble. What Putin is doing is unconscionable and deserves condemnation from every angle. From my perspective he had the moral high ground and he just pissed it away.

1. I appreciate your objectivity now.

2. Will you NOW quit listening to the people that convinced you putin was peace loving and not aggressive? And acknowledge their either poor judgment or bad motives?

 

[Ponca Dan]

1. I appreciate your objectivity now.

2. Will you NOW quit listening to the people that convinced you putin was peace loving and not aggressive? And acknowledge their either poor judgment or bad motives?

Out of all our conversations that was what you heard, that I believed Putin was peace loving and not aggressive?

 

[Medic007]

Out of all our conversations that was what you heard, that I believed Putin was peace loving and not aggressive?

He tells himself stories that then become what he thinks reality is. It's both hilarious and sad.

 

[windriverrange]

I'll Mea Culpa as well. I didn't think he would invade, as it didn't make sense to me. But Putin himself explained his reasoning in his own attack message. “Our analysis has concluded that our confrontation with these [Ukrainian] forces in inevitable.”

He believed that conflict with the West is coming, and that Ukraine would be that proxy. He decided to strike while the West was ill-prepared to handle it, and he's probably right.

The question for the West is simple. Do we surrender Ukraine to its own devices (and likely annexation) and go back to a cold War with Russia, like we had from the 50s till Reagan? Or do we commit to a fighting war with the threat of nuclear, hypersonic, and space weaponry in play? I feel bad for Ukraine, but I don't know how the West doesn't go with the former option.

Me as well, have to see where things go, but this looks like a full on invasion. Ukraine should have never given up their nukes in 2018.

No way you risk a world war in Ukraine though. You definitely beef up NATO security measures for the remaining members that will now be bordering Ukraine. Have to admit Georgia now as well.

The west is so weak again......all those years of money on defense spending, all those years chasing the dam muslims around and yet this couldn't be prevented. Some think that this had been in the planning since Trump was POTUS and that may be true. But that thinking in akin to the current criminal wave we have in the US. Are their more criminals, or are their basically the same number of criminals they just commit infinitely more crimes because the authorities are not punishing them so there is no real deterrent to being a criminal scumbag. Putin saw no deterrent from the west, especially after the debacle in Afghanistan by the US, the lack of resolve when Crimea was annexed and the quasi-war that continued to run from 2014 to present in Donbas and Luhansk. I'll add Georgia in 2008 as well.

Biden will go down as the absolute worst president in US history.....hands down. Unbelievable he has established that title in a bit over 13 months being in office. Carter and the ex-rodent in chief are also in the house though.

 

[JimmyBob]

This Prez is ill equipped mentally and from a leadership perspective to handle this or anything else.

Fify.

 

[Syskatine]

Out of all our conversations that was what you heard, that I believed Putin was peace loving and not aggressive?

Oh no! That's just one little nugget: Have you ever stopped to think that some people see the benefit to the cause of world peace with the reduction and eventual elimination of NATO regardless of what Putin says?

 

[blbronco]

I still put that as part of Russia's history. Putin did not need an excuse other than believing (rightly or wrongly) that he/Russia has the power to do so. Any "it was inevitable" garbage was just double-speak. Sure, it was inevitable because Russia was going to make it inevitable. I think in the long run, this is going to hurt Russia. The only real question is, does Biden et al f* it up and make us the bad guys in the end, or does the US (and allies) actually take this on in any meaningful way?

 

[aix_xpert]

I still put that as part of Russia's history. Putin did not need an excuse other than believing (rightly or wrongly) that he/Russia has the power to do so. Any "it was inevitable" garbage was just double-speak. Sure, it was inevitable because Russia was going to make it inevitable. I think in the long run, this is going to hurt Russia. The only real question is, does Biden et al f* it up and make us the bad guys in the end, or does the US (and allies) actually take this on in any meaningful way?

Putin did it because he's a super-power and could. But what makes a country a super-power? Is it nukes? Not really, unless you are truly willing to use them. Is it a sizeable military? That can be one manner to measure it, although that alone isn't enough (just ask Iraq or Iran). But in my opinion, what makes a country a super-power is whether or not other countries are highly dependent upon them. China is a super-power because of the economic dependence the west has on them. The US is a super power because of the economic and military dependence a large number of countries has on us. By this measure, Russia is a super power, not because of their military or economic might, but rather due to the energy dependence the West has created upon them. As such, countering Russia will require non-military sacrifices by the general citizenry. $100 oil is here. $5/gas is likely just around the corner. There will be significant economic damage from this war to the US and EU.

 

[Ponca Dan]

Oh no! That's just one little nugget: Have you ever stopped to think that some people see the benefit to the cause of world peace with the reduction and eventual elimination of NATO regardless of what Putin says?

From that you determine I think Putin is peace loving? If that’s the case I’ve gotta say you need to brush up on your analyzing skills.

 

[Syskatine]

From that you determine I think Putin is peace loving? If that’s the case I’ve gotta say you need to brush up on your analyzing skills.

You're telling me I should brush up on my analytical skills? Can you see why in the current context that statement may raise eyebrows?

You pushed back so hard, so stubbornly, and you haven't explained what writers gave you those strong opinions that led to the mea culpa.

 

[blbronco]

Putin did it because he's a super-power and could. But what makes a country a super-power? Is it nukes? Not really, unless you are truly willing to use them. Is it a sizeable military? That can be one manner to measure it, although that alone isn't enough (just ask Iraq or Iran). But in my opinion, what makes a country a super-power is whether or not other countries are highly dependent upon them. China is a super-power because of the economic dependence the west has on them. The US is a super power because of the economic and military dependence a large number of countries has on us. By this measure, Russia is a super power, not because of their military or economic might, but rather due to the energy dependence the West has created upon them. As such, countering Russia will require non-military sacrifices by the general citizenry. $100 oil is here. $5/gas is likely just around the corner. There will be significant economic damage from this war to the US and EU.

No disagreement. My concern about Biden (and the DNC in general) is that they are more worried about buffering for the mid-term elections and avoiding more inflation (to which the GOP will pounce) in an effort to "beat" Russia. IMO, we are screwed because there is zero maturity in DC.

 

[Ponca Dan]

You're telling me I should brush up on my analytical skills? Can you see why in the current context that statement may raise eyebrows?

You pushed back so hard, so stubbornly, and you haven't explained what writers gave you those strong opinions that led to the mea culpa.

The writers’ names were contained in the multiple links I posted, Sys. Not one of whom, I might add, called Putin a peace lover.

 

[aix_xpert]

No disagreement. My concern about Biden (and the DNC in general) is that they are more worried about buffering for the mid-term elections and avoiding more inflation (to which the GOP will pounce) in an effort to "beat" Russia. IMO, we are screwed because there is zero maturity in DC.

Agreed. The crux of the problem is that the ideal solution in this case "Drill, baby, Drill" is complete anathema to the ruling party's creeds and beliefs.

 

[07pilt]

No disagreement. My concern about Biden (and the DNC in general) is that they are more worried about buffering for the mid-term elections and avoiding more inflation (to which the GOP will pounce) in an effort to "beat" Russia. IMO, we are screwed because there is zero maturity in DC.

What could be done to "beat" Russia?

 

[07pilt]

Agreed. The crux of the problem is that the ideal solution in this case "Drill, baby, Drill" is complete anathema to the ruling party's creeds and beliefs.

Drill baby Drill is happening and it isn't making any difference, because the bottleneck isn't supply of natural gas, it is the transportation of natural gas.

 

[Syskatine]

Agreed. The crux of the problem is that the ideal solution in this case "Drill, baby, Drill" is complete anathema to the ruling party's creeds and beliefs.

And he's back with MORE keen insight.

 

[blbronco]

What could be done to "beat" Russia?

Make it cost them too much. Short term and long term.

 

[07pilt]

Make it cost them too much. Short term and long term.

Can you be more specific?

 

[Medic007]

Can you be more specific?

Shouldn't the executive branch of the US government be tackling this? I'm not sure blbronco can send troops and stuff to Ukraine and what not.

 

[blbronco]

Can you be more specific?

Not my area of expertise. However, isolating them economically would be a great starting point, I would think. Blocking even their back-channels. Petroleum seems to be their greatest economic source, so that is a starting point. Also, what makes Ukraine worth taking over? Is it just a start to get the old USSR back together? Are there other resources Ukraine produces that is valuable to Russia? Addressing that and making it not worth the costs should be on the list. Providing support to Ukraine that allows them to hold out longer, making it harder for Russia (which goes back to making it cost more than they will gain). As a last resort, if it is beneficial for the US and allies, boots on the ground or other more direct measures.

This is not my field, and I know there are a laundry list of details that I do not know. What I care more about is, can our idiots in power (DNC and GOP) get over their pettiness to figure this out?

 

[07pilt]

Shouldn't the executive branch of the US government be tackling this? I'm not sure blbronco can send troops and stuff to Ukraine and what not.

I mean lets just be realistic about the costs of imposing costs. Should we be sending troops?

 

[blbronco]

Shouldn't the executive branch of the US government be tackling this? I'm not sure blbronco can send troops and stuff to Ukraine and what not.

I know what he is getting at. To a point, I don't disagree (saying that Biden's sanctions...those that he cancelled from Trump, are the best first step). What I think he is failing to recognize is, I am not making it just about Biden. This is all of DC power brokers.

 

[07pilt]

Not my area of expertise. However, isolating them economically would be a great starting point, I would think. Blocking even their back-channels. Petroleum seems to be their greatest economic source, so that is a starting point.

How much are you willing to sacrifice at the pump to impose a cost for an invasion of Ukraine? For me a right wing regime is being replaced by a right wing regime in response to the encroachment of a right wing alliance. I just hope the common people of Ukraine and Russia don't have to suffer too much for this game of geopolitical chess being played by the ruling class.

Also, what makes Ukraine worth taking over? Is it just a start to get the old USSR back together?

Russia is indefensible if a NATO friendly regime controls Ukraine. Its not driven by resources.

if it is beneficial for the US and allies, boots on the ground or other more direct measures.

You willing to fight and die for Zelensky?

This is not my field, and I know there are a laundry list of details that I do not know. What I care more about is, can our idiots in power (DNC and GOP) get over their pettiness to figure this out?

I hope not. If they agree on something that something is sure to be the worst possible option.