If I were a college professor trying to give an example of a “straw man argument” I don’t think I could find anything better than this. It’s comparison of a free society to the operations of its fictional Freedom Cafe is about as sophomoric as anything I’ve ever read. It displays a total lack of understanding how free individuals in a free society would operate. It sets up an illogical premise and gleefully knocks it down. To be honest, blbronco, knowing that you agree with this surprises me. Based on many of your previous posts I had not recognized your antipathy toward liberty.
mask vs no mask
- Thread starter blbronco
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If I were a college professor trying to give an example of a “straw man argument” I don’t think I could find anything better than this. It’s comparison of a free society to the operations of its fictional Freedom Cafe is about as sophomoric as anything I’ve ever read. It displays a total lack of understanding how free individuals in a free society would operate. It sets up an illogical premise and gleefully knocks it down. To be honest, blbronco, knowing that you agree with this surprises me. Based on many of your previous posts I had not recognized your antipathy toward liberty.
Suggesting using a mask equals antipathy towards liberty? That is a massive leap in logic. I do not think it should be mandated to wear a mask. I do think it is a good practice for this pandemic. Everybody wants to return to normal, but so many just want a magic wand and to do nothing themselves. I get it, but can still suggest wearing a mask.
I’d never speak for Dan but he might be suggesting the state mandating wearing a mask...
No, no, blbronco. You’re one of my favorite posters on this board, but you don’t get off this hook so easily. The analogy that the Freedom Cafe is how a free society would operate is a pure canard. It suggests that free people would be so ignorant as to visit an impure establishment, and that entrepreneurs would be so evil as to create such an establishment, and that free people would be helpless without government agents looking out for their welfare. The example of the Freedom Cafe as justification for requiring people to wear masks lacks any logical explanation. Your example is not a “suggestion” and you know it. It is a subtle demand that people follow what you think should be dictated. It shows a complete antipathy toward liberty.
A face shield is better than a mask and allows for easier breathing. Masks don't cover your eyes or keep your hands out of your face. Any spit from some person would go on a face shield and not on your face. Any spit from you stays on your face shield. Both sides are easier to clean.
With the exceptions of a few, nobody is cleaning their masks or changing masks from outing to outing. They use the same unclean masks from store to store. They then return home and infect everyone there with the viruses they carried from place to place infecting people along the way. The mask is the vector not the preventative.
With the exceptions of a few, nobody is cleaning their masks or changing masks from outing to outing. They use the same unclean masks from store to store. They then return home and infect everyone there with the viruses they carried from place to place infecting people along the way. The mask is the vector not the preventative.
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I wear a mask when appropriate. But honestly there are a lot of places I don’t feel the need. Pretty easy to social distance in a Home Depot or Lowe’s.
In my spare time in the summer, I run a basketball camp for kids. I do wear a mask then... for the most part. If I am offering instruction to a group of them I will pull it down to talk, but when I am well past a 6 feet distance.
In my spare time in the summer, I run a basketball camp for kids. I do wear a mask then... for the most part. If I am offering instruction to a group of them I will pull it down to talk, but when I am well past a 6 feet distance.
All I know is I'm getting fed up with meekly submitting to 'The whims du jour' crowd that are contradicting themselves from their previous edicts...way back last week.
The Constitution is my guiding light, and nothing else.
The Constitution is my guiding light, and nothing else.
I still think you are reading way too much into that. It certainly pokes fun at many of the arguments mad to not wear one, when the only reason is “i don’t want to,” which is fine. Despite working for the government now, I am still a screw big brother type. Even with that, history suggests that without some regulations, much of what was spoofed in the OP has happened. You would be surprised at what does happen despite regulations. Imprimis made a great post that face shields do, typically, work better, because they also protect the eyes. Again, should wear, not should be required to wear.
I don’t dispute your belief that wearing a mask (or a shield) offers superior protection over not wearing one. I’m not questioning anything about that. I am objecting to the article’s subtle contention that free people would not be capable of recognizing what is in their best interest (in this case wearing masks), and therefore must be “protected” by intellectually superior elites that willingly use the police power of the state to enforce their dictates. The article you wish you had written suggests exactly that. And that is what I find so objectionable.
Oh, by the way, I doubt I would be surprised at what happens in spite of the attempts at regulation. I personally see that as a negative in the argument that regulations need to be dictated. Bad stuff happens in spite of supposed good intentions. Yet people falsely believe no bad things will happen to them because government regulators have everything under control.
I would respectfully disagree with the post before this one as to the “meaning” of the writing. I see it more as poking fun at the arguments and reasoning people use to not wear one. Social media groups, etc.
As far as the quoted post. I do not know of anyone that thinks that the regulations guarantee safety. It does set a standard, that if not met and injury occurs, supports tort actions. It makes the coat of doing bad business more painful.
if all the mask shamers are riding a bike to work instead of driving, I’ll wear a mask
We’ll just disagree on the inferred meaning of the article. I admit to being hypersensitive when it comes to arguments against liberty, even if it’s meant as “poking fun” at people who adhere to the notion.
None of this changes my perspective of you. I still regard you as predominantly unbiased in your analyses and statements, and continue to hold you in high regard.
I find that there is an inherent problem with a tort action against a virus. There is no possible way any business can reasonably protect any of its customers from catching an aerosolized virus. This would be the equivalent of trying to sue someone when you caught the flu. Just does not pass the smell test. If that day comes I may be out on the judicial system in the US and agree with BLM about burning it down.
Not talking about COVID. I generally agree with what you are saying. What I am talking about is food-borne diseases like salmonella, etc due to poor sanitary methods. There are minimum standards that are required, if an issue arises due to not meeting those requirements, it is negligence, thus the tort.
Dan, the mask isn't only for your protection. If you are infected and are asymptotic or only have mild symptoms that could easily be mistaken for something like seasonal allergies, covering your face reduces your likelihood of transmitting the virus to others. It's no different than covering your mouth when you cough or sneeze. It's no different than the concept of handwashing.
Do you cover your mouth when you cough? Do you wash your hands after taking a dump? If so, why do you do those things?
I think you just made Ponca's point. The comparison is not there.
It is there. You have to stop thinking the mask is just for your own safety.
Then I go back to my previous point. At what time are we now concerned about others safety to the point where we change our behavior and clothes we wear. By that standard we should have been wearing masks 100 years ago. In fact we should all be wearing full face shields and look like Darth Vader. Now I would absolutely love to see everyone wearing storm trooper helmets around. The geek in me would be all smiles.
On top of that when does it end? Today its Covid tomorrow it will be another virus. After that there will be another, and another. It will go on and on until when? Its over? For me the answer to that is: it will never be over. There will always be another threat. So you can either wear full face coverings all the time or let biology do what biology does.
Well that sould do it! I would actualy commend you if you did this! That would be awsome!
Of course I agree with you 100% in what you’re saying. And of course I do all those things you describe. None of which has anything to do with the point I was making with blbronco.
Well, our behavior has always evolved to include things that protect us and things that protect others. Food safety standards weren't always in place. There was a time before the FDA. Before 1906, the Pure Food and Drug Act didn't exist. Heroin was actually marketed as a cure for morphine addiction.
Do you have liability insurance on your vehicle? That doesn't cover your own damages. Personal injury rider on your home owner's insurance? Do you expect your physician to have malpractice insurance? OSHA requires people to wear certain clothing and protective equipment for some jobs.
There are countless examples of behavior changes in history to adapt to current and future circumstances. I keep seeing comparisons to the flu, but covid isn't the flu. We still have no idea how to prevent it, stop it, or even minimize the damage that it does to the human body. Can you only get infected once? Can you get repeated infections? Nobody knows yet. I've seen young healthy people die from it in addition to the older unhealthy people. Currently the world death rate is 4.8%. The US is identical at 4.7%. That's much worse than the flu. Are there people who had it that were never tested? Absolutely. We can try to guess how many people that is, but it will likely only ever be as good as an educated guess can be. Is the death rate actually less than 4.8%? Yes, it is. But even if the death rate ends up at something like 1%, that's still 10 times the number of deaths from the flu.
That might have cut down on infection rates in the 1918 pandemic. Nkw you've got me wondering about what all happened in the previous 100 years that wearing a mask could have been beneficial.
I'm not a Star Wars fan, but that would be awesome.
It will end when the earth does I suppose. Bacteria and viruses are in abundance and constantly evolving. You should see the newer antibiotic resistant bacterial strains. Scary shit. It's nearing the point that bacteria are evolving against antibiotics faster than we can develop new antibiotics. And there's more shit out there like Ebola that we haven't stumbled upon, yet.
I'm a fan of face coverings because we know they offer some protection against transmission. I don't think they should be government mandated but do believe that business owners have the right to refuse service to anyone not wearing one. Covid will run its course. What the end result will be is of course yet to be seen. I don't see why so many people are resistant to something as simple as a mask, but to each their own.
The OP is simply poking fun at people who refuse to wear a mask by apying that same attitude to food service. I don't think it's the suggestion of killing anyone's liberty like you're making it out to be.
I could easily be mistaken, but I don’t think that many people are opposed to wearing masks qua masks. I think they are incensed by the topsy turvy demands placed on them by people who obviously don’t know what they’re talking about, but feel authorized to force people to obey their constantly changing and very hypocritical dictates. It’s not so much about the masks as it’s about the cavalier violation of individual dignity by people who think they should get to tell everyone else what to do.
Can’t speak for everyone, I honestly don’t have a huge problem with masks, but the delivery of the message has become annoying as hell. I’m definitely a mind your own business type...guess there aren’t many like me anymore.
Yes, I understand that. It’s not an overt attack on liberty. But it is a subtle “suggestion” that people who visit the Freedom Cafe are ignorantly putting themselves at great risk because in freedom there won’t be any official (read: government) agency looking out for them. The rubes will be left to their own devices, and we all know the rubes are too stupid to understand what’s good for them. Only intelligent regulators can do that. It’s not overt. It’s a subtly covert message that we should all put our faith and our fate into the hands of much better informed regulators. (This despite blbronco’s admission that we would all be surprised at the failures of regulations and regulators.) That’s how I interpret it. I fully understand neither you nor blbronco see the same thing I’m seeing.
I don't disagree about all of the mixed message delivery from the political types. Covid isn't a political topic in my world though. Wearing a mask is a job requirement and a no brainer when I'm not at work.
Not an issue for me, Dan. A good discussion is what this board is for.
I'm quite certain that blbronco and I see it the same way because of our respective professions.
I agree with that 100%. The politicians are showing their hypocrisy on giant neon signs.
I think this is the reasonable common ground.
I think the hardest questions about this is what is controllable and what is not? You said there are a lot of things we dont know about it. I think that statement can cut both ways. Some will want to do something. Others may not be willing to do anything. It's the fight or flight reflex. Hard to say which is which though. I'm usually a fight kinda guy but I dont want to be swinging at nothing.
I realy do feel for mayors who are completley out of thier league right now. It will keep them up at night for sure.
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This. I have interviewed about 600 people regarding exposure, etc. I can only imagine what you are seeing with your own eyes. It doesn’t affect anybody until it does. Like you said, it isn’t political for me, and We have been quite consistent throughout this pandemic. Messaging from the CDC and elected officials (on both sides) has been aweful. I am still pissed at the CDC for not having a formal case definition. There is no excuse for that. Also, the delays in how to interpret antibody and non-PCR antigen testing has been terrible.
I hope there are no perceived Orwellian government takeover messages in this one, but it made me laugh.
edit: see if it works this time
pic.twitter.com/8OoF9EPIgB</a></p>— Philadelphia Public Health (@PHLPublicHealth) <a href="
edit: see if it works this time
pic.twitter.com/8OoF9EPIgB</a></p>— Philadelphia Public Health (@PHLPublicHealth) <a href="
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I will say, against the instructions of the "experts," I hoarded Vitamin C while everyone else was hoarding toilet paper, and that seems to have worked out quite well for me, along with the regimen of healthy eating, daily exercise, and a few supplements which I started about 20 years ago. It's also awesome having people ask you if you're about "x" years old, when you're actually "x + 15" years old.
This is way too long to post as anything other then a link......but lots of evidence masks don't work
https://www.rcreader.com/commentary...f-science-relevant-to-covide-19-social-policy
https://www.rcreader.com/commentary...f-science-relevant-to-covide-19-social-policy
