Killing a program

[Okie_Pat]

Not sure what qualifies you as a wrestler on here, but I did wrestle, just not in college and technique is something that is taught and hammered on from a early age through high school. At the DI college level everyone is skilled and knows technique. What becomes more important and separates out the field is strength, athleticism and work ethic. Work ethic is a lot of attitude-the will to win and the drive that person has to be the best. If you want to be great at the DI level it is a year round job. And with todays technology you have tons of film at your fingertips. You have to study the sport. Wrestling is evolving, most shots end in scrambles, less falls, riding techniques, guys are focusing more on counter wrestling and scoring from defense.

That's a area where we are behind. I'm not in the room but from what I see on the mat there needs to be much more emphasis on situational wrestling for individuals rather than just technique in the room. VV is a perfect example, he will shoot on anyone and gets in deep on the legs but has a low percentage of finishing his shots because he isn't strong in scrambling. Now I also think Voinovich is a little slow on his feet and with his shots and shoots with a little too much distance, but if he can work on his scrambling and working through positions he will jump levels. He lost so many 1 point matches this year.

We tend to recruit guys that have the skills and technique that are very accomplished at the junior and high school level which is important. But it is hard to determine a kids drive, character and will to win until you get them in a college room and put them through daily workouts. Cael has a great mind at evaluating the heart of some guys before they even get on campus. He knows what he's looking for because he was one of those guys himself who had all the tangibles it takes to be the best. John had the heart, toughness and will to win. He also was a innovator with technique with the low single. But there are not many Cael's and John Smith's out there.

 

[chasepollard]

Not a wrestler, either, so not qualified to comment per at least one poster, but I think our technique is definitely lacking in some aspects. I am so tired of seeing our guys dive straight in on a single leg, only to have the opponent drape over the back and grab an ankle to wait for the stalemate. Shouldn't there be some sideways motion, twisting, lifting, or circling with the single leg attempt in order to negate that draping action? Another frustrating thing is our guys lack of ability to get off bottom. It is rampant throughout the line-up and seems to be getting worse each year. Even Daton struggled at times against mediocre competition. Flip side of that is that some of our guys can't ride worth a hoot.

I also agree with a post that said we need to recruit quicker guys. You can teach a lot of things, but speed isn't one of them. Plus, I still hold that we are not as strong, usually, as our opponents. We constantly hear that our guys struggle to make weight, but it seems that we are always smaller and less muscular. One plus this year was that we seemed to be in better shape and seldom ran out of gas. Several SV wins because of that.

Throws are always exciting to watch. One of the things I love about Witcraft. It is almost guaranteed that someone will wind up on their back at least once.

Part of why I think we should look at more guys with this ability/knowledge. It's 50/50 at best that our guys are awarded two, the other 50% is either a stalemate or we lose the scramble.

So, why not work towards moves that generate at least 2, with the possibility of 5 with a likelihood of 4 with a 30-40% conversion? Get good at scrambling away from giving up 2 or just don't worry about it since you are giving up 2 much of the time anyway?

I know traditional Wrestlers are rolling their eyes at this, but it makes sense!

I just feel the single leg attacks are giving too much space to counter to a scramble? Doubles seem to thwart the scramble situation moreso than singles, but a good percentage of those end up in a scramble too. I just think there has to be some innovation on what we are asking our guys to do and I won't be upset having 5-10 guys AA who are throwers instead of 2 guys who AA because they are a little better scramblers than the other 25 in the bracket.

 

[Gabe H Coud]

What's the tea. Are you saying he couldn't stop drinking or smoking or whatever with his wrestling teammates so he threw away his D1 athletic career to get sober as a 21/22 year old? Seems like a reach but hey there hasn't been any statement or anything so who knows.

I don't really buy the partying is a problem talk. It's so subjective and every time it comes up in discussion (excepting the few concrete examples from several years ago) it's always vague, no details, second/third/fourth-hand accounts.

Mastro is not gone because of partying lol. But he is gone

 

[vhsalum]

Mastro is not gone because of partying lol. But he is gone

Well… it didn’t help him play school…

 

[Reslo]

No. I wasn’t close to good enough to wrestle at that level. I did have the opportunity to occasional work out with a few national champions. The difference in levels between a very good high school wrestler and an elite D1 guy was night and day. Hard to even describe to be honest.

Same! I rolled around with Jeff Prescott and Sanshiro Abe at PSU in the 90's. That's when I learned I was more of a below average Division II wrestler 😂

 

[Harleycowboy]

I listened to the Pistol Firing podcast which rarely talks wrestling apparently. They responded some to our poor finishes and they indicated they were attacked by wrestling fans (same thing that usually happens here on this forum for over a decade). They acknowledged not big fans but are fans. Their take was the program has not been financially backed like the Big 10 schools ( can't deny this). I can't forget when Coach Smith talked to the media after wrestling facility was announced and Coach Smith actually said this won't help us win though ( that statement will really help us find financial backing for a new wrestling facility). Our lack of financial backing has to be tied to John and him being so foolish (another example fighting training centers) Some fan backs fund raising for CWC and John says something like I won't be doing this , so yes you do it. Coach Smith seems to have kept his ideas from the 1990's and think they are still relevant for athletes in the 2020's and for wrestling Programs in the 2020's. Hopefully the next month is interesting for Cowboy wrestling. My belief is Coach Smith has earned this place that Cowboy wrestling has dropped to. Also we have had very bad luck for years but when you don't do things right you tend to have bad luck also.

 

[Harleycowboy]

I listened to the Pistol Firing podcast which rarely talks wrestling apparently. They responded some to our poor finishes and they indicated they were attacked by wrestling fans (same thing that usually happens here on this forum for over a decade). They acknowledged not big fans but are fans. Their take was the program has not been financially backed like the Big 10 schools ( can't deny this). I can't forget when Coach Smith talked to the media after wrestling facility was announced and Coach Smith actually said this won't help us win though ( that statement will really help us find financial backing for a new wrestling facility). Our lack of financial backing has to be tied to John and him being so foolish (another example fighting training centers) Some fan backs fund raising for CWC and John says something like I won't be doing this , so yes you do it. Coach Smith seems to have kept his ideas from the 1990's and think they are still relevant for athletes in the 2020's and for wrestling Programs in the 2020's. Hopefully the next month is interesting for Cowboy wrestling. My belief is Coach Smith has earned this place that Cowboy wrestling has dropped to. Also we have had very bad luck for years but when you don't do things right you tend to have bad luck also.

Also my hope is that these last 2 unbelievable horrible years will break through even John Smith's ego and denial defense system because what a horrible way to end your most of the time great career. He will need to be brutally honest, work harder than he has for a long time, and do jobs that he has been unwilling to do in the past (basically be a CEO instead of just being a wrestling coach). I hope he rises to the occasion, but time will tell.

 

[cachap5327]

Also my hope is that these last 2 unbelievable horrible years will break through even John Smith's ego and denial defense system because what a horrible way to end your most of the time great career. He will need to be brutally honest, work harder than he has for a long time, and do jobs that he has been unwilling to do in the past (basically be a CEO instead of just being a wrestling coach). I hope he rises to the occasion, but time will tell.

He really needs to learn to work smarter, rather than just working harder. Just working harder hasn't gotten us anywhere.

 

[Wrassler17]

Also my hope is that these last 2 unbelievable horrible years will break through even John Smith's ego and denial defense system because what a horrible way to end your most of the time great career. He will need to be brutally honest, work harder than he has for a long time, and do jobs that he has been unwilling to do in the past (basically be a CEO instead of just being a wrestling coach). I hope he rises to the occasion, but time will tell.

Harley, I hope he makes changes too but I'm not exactly brimming with confidence.

Last year John spoke to the media a few days after we finished 14th at NCAAs. Said changes were needed and they were working 12 hour days to fix things. Remember he couldn't hear no anymore? That he didn't like NIL and the portal (toxic), but we needed to look at them because we've fallen behind? Did anyone see any changes? Now we finished 18th.

 

[Harleycowboy]

He really needs to learn to work smarter, rather than just working harder. Just working harder hasn't gotten us anywhere.

Harley, I hope he makes changes too but I'm not exactly brimming with confidence.

Last year John spoke to the media a few days after we finished 14th at NCAAs. Said changes were needed and they were working 12 hour days to fix things. Remember he couldn't hear no anymore? That he didn't like NIL and the portal (toxic), but we needed to look at them because we've fallen behind? Did anyone see any changes? Now we finished 18th.

Maybe now he needs to quit saying no.

 

[Harleycowboy]

He really needs to learn to work smarter, rather than just working harder. Just working harder hasn't gotten us anywhere.

I agree and that is some of what I meant when I wrote doing tasks that he has avoided in the past and being a CEO.

 

[cachap5327]

If he really does not want to do the things that are necessary to move the program forward, he needs to step down. Fundraising, RTC, NIL, better training facilities and the transfer portal are absolutely essential going forward. He can't just appoint someone else to do these tasks, he is the head guy and must embrace them.

 

[cachap5327]

I agree and that is some of what I meant when I wrote doing tasks that he has avoided in the past and being a CEO.

Harley, let me take this opportunity to say that I really appreciate your posts here. I know you sometimes get some flack for your opinions, but I find them to be right on most of the time.

 

[CowboyTanker]

Nothing of substance is going to change as long as John stays. He doesn't really know what to do or how to approach it. Modern collegiate wrestling passed him by a decade ago.
As long as this group is around, we will flounder. And it will mean that John Smith thinks he's bigger than Cowboy Wrestling. No one person is bigger than Cowboy Wrestling.
Do you think of Houston as a golf powerhouse.....probably not. But they have won 16 NCAA titles. We have only won 11...but about any golfer knows of our success. Why? Relevance.
Houston is irrelevant in golf today.
That is where John Smith is taking us in wrestling.....irrelevance.
What are other words for irrelevance? unimportant, inconsequential, insignificant

 

[Wrassler17]

Nothing of substance is going to change as long as John stays. He doesn't really know what to do or how to approach it. Modern collegiate wrestling passed him by a decade ago.
As long as this group is around, we will flounder. And it will mean that John Smith thinks he's bigger than Cowboy Wrestling. No one person is bigger than Cowboy Wrestling.
Do you think of Houston as a golf powerhouse.....probably not. But they have won 16 NCAA titles. We have only won 11...but about any golfer knows of our success. Why? Relevance.
Houston is irrelevant in golf today.
That is where John Smith is taking us in wrestling.....irrelevance.
What are other words for irrelevance? unimportant, inconsequential, insignificant

Your comment about irrelevance reminded me of something I read on the OU board once. Posted by someone who worked in an athletic department...

He said in the late 70s OU made a big push to compete with OSU in wrestling. Donors pumped $ into the program and they improved. Got guys like Metzger and the Schultz brothers. Then Tubbs started winning in the mid 80s and all the $ and attention turned to basketball. OU wrestling stalled and never really recovered.

 

[SquinkY5786]

I listened to the Pistol Firing podcast which rarely talks wrestling apparently. They responded some to our poor finishes and they indicated they were attacked by wrestling fans (same thing that usually happens here on this forum for over a decade). They acknowledged not big fans but are fans. Their take was the program has not been financially backed like the Big 10 schools ( can't deny this). I can't forget when Coach Smith talked to the media after wrestling facility was announced and Coach Smith actually said this won't help us win though ( that statement will really help us find financial backing for a new wrestling facility). Our lack of financial backing has to be tied to John and him being so foolish (another example fighting training centers) Some fan backs fund raising for CWC and John says something like I won't be doing this , so yes you do it. Coach Smith seems to have kept his ideas from the 1990's and think they are still relevant for athletes in the 2020's and for wrestling Programs in the 2020's. Hopefully the next month is interesting for Cowboy wrestling. My belief is Coach Smith has earned this place that Cowboy wrestling has dropped to. Also we have had very bad luck for years but when you don't do things right you tend to have bad luck also.

I’m a casual follower. I listened to the pod and honestly the financial backing thing seems like Kindof a canned excuse. I do think facilities and such have prob been neglected but money usually has to do with ability to lure recruits. And is seems like we have recruited pretty well recently. But results seem to not follow that trajectory. That tells me that maybe a coach hasn’t evolved with the game. All I know is at OSU that no coach or alum is bigger than the program. Alabama football would can Sabans ass if he even hinted at a downward slide like we are living currently.

 

[Harleycowboy]

Nothing of substance is going to change as long as John stays. He doesn't really know what to do or how to approach it. Modern collegiate wrestling passed him by a decade ago.
As long as this group is around, we will flounder. And it will mean that John Smith thinks he's bigger than Cowboy Wrestling. No one person is bigger than Cowboy Wrestling.
Do you think of Houston as a golf powerhouse.....probably not. But they have won 16 NCAA titles. We have only won 11...but about any golfer knows of our success. Why? Relevance.
Houston is irrelevant in golf today.
That is where John Smith is taking us in wrestling.....irrelevance.
What are other words for irrelevance? unimportant, inconsequential, insignificant

Flo talked about us some on FRL saying what a poor performance. Askren was really down on the lack of development and Pyles tried to defend us some. The basic message is we have been recruiting pretty good so why so few All Americans.

 

[Okie_Pat]

I do not think John Smith thinks he’s bigger than the program. He is the face of the program and has been for his 32/33 years as HC and a well known name. He is just so out of touch with the changes going on in college wrestling. I think he underestimated the impact and importance of the NIL and portal and being stuck in his old ways he didn’t like it so refused to adopt it and be on the forefront.

New facilities are something we need, will it help improve the performance of the team? Likely not, but it will help keep us current with a lot of other programs having made major upgrades to theirs.

A well established and funded RTC is something we need. Will it help with the performance of the team? Absolutely!

But let’s be honest, our dated facilities, NIL and the portal are not why this team has been struggling. This trend has been going on for the last 6 or 7 years. Our bad performance is a development issue. Which is a coaching issue. The RTC is fundamental to developing our wrestlers in the off-season all while training with top senior guys.

We got Alvarez in the portal so at least that’s a step in the right direction. But you can’t rely on the portal to stay competitive. You have to develop the wrestlers you get and if someone isn’t working out then you go out and get someone. We have been complacent with a lot of below average wrestlers in the lineup for a while. Example, no HWT since 2018. No backups who can come in a make an impact if someone goes down.

 

[chasepollard]

I do not think John Smith thinks he’s bigger than the program. He is the face of the program and has been for his 32/33 years as HC and a well known name. He is just so out of touch with the changes going on in college wrestling. I think he underestimated the impact and importance of the NIL and portal and being stuck in his old ways he didn’t like it so refused to adopt it and be on the forefront.

New facilities are something we need, will it help improve the performance of the team? Likely not, but it will help keep us current with a lot of other programs having made major upgrades to theirs.

A well established and funded RTC is something we need. Will it help with the performance of the team? Absolutely!

But let’s be honest, our dated facilities, NIL and the portal are not why this team has been struggling. This trend has been going on for the last 6 or 7 years. Our bad performance is a development issue. Which is a coaching issue. The RTC is fundamental to developing our wrestlers in the off-season all while training with top senior guys.

We got Alvarez in the portal so at least that’s a step in the right direction. But you can’t rely on the portal to stay competitive. You have to develop the wrestlers you get and if someone isn’t working out then you go out and get someone. We have been complacent with a lot of below average wrestlers in the lineup for a while. Example, no HWT since 2018. No backups who can come in a make an impact if someone goes down.

This post hits pretty hard.

We don’t have a “next man up” in many scenarios that can compete. We also have holes in the lineup that last an eligibility.

When we miss now, we have holes that last a decade.

 

[alex1fly]

Flo talked about us some on FRL saying what a poor performance. Askren was really down on the lack of development and Pyles tried to defend us some. The basic message is we have been recruiting pretty good so why so few All Americans.

Both are right. We did okay. We expected to do a lot better at NCAAs. Dual season was pretty darn good considering. Lineup was weird... two super seniors, one that didn't plan on coming back, 125 peaced out mid-season, 7 dudes at new weights. Even Carter didn't intend on coming to OSU until Northwestern's coach left. Problem is we've been scrambling to train guys up on fundamentals for many years due to injuries (Kaid, Weigel, Boo, Smith, Ferrari) and losing recruits (Ferrari, Ferrari, Mastro, Mastro), backups filling in (Hone, heavyweight, Stika), moving guys around in weight classes both before and during the seasons (Chandler, Smith, Wittlake, Sheets, Gfeller, Surber), putting guys in possibly incorrect weight classes to accommodate studs (Wittlake maybe at 174, Mastro/Young maybe at 133, Surber maybe at 197 his first year). I can't honestly remember the last time we had a starting lineup where everyone started and ended the season at the same weight AND didn't have a season-ending injury. It's a lot change and uncertainty.

 

[Sebastian]

Excuses....every year. For over a decade and a half. And trending down. Very little personal improvement and a lot of going backwards.

 

[Mrgrapple]

Flo talked about us some on FRL saying what a poor performance. Askren was really down on the lack of development and Pyles tried to defend us some. The basic message is we have been recruiting pretty good so why so few All Americans.

Askren is upset because we beat MIZZOU this year.

 

[OSUMatFan]

Askren has never missed an opportunity to bash Oklahoma State.

 

[cachap5327]

Well, Chris Pendleton is the reason Askren wasn't a 4 time champ.

 

[biocowboy]

Well, Chris Pendleton is the reason Askren wasn't a 4 time champ

Well, Chris Pendleton is the reason Askren wasn't a 4 time champ.

I was thinking that RBY was going to be the reason Fix was not at least a 3x'er until last weekend.

OSU wrestling=OSU men's basketball

 

[Gabe H Coud]

Flo talked about us some on FRL saying what a poor performance. Askren was really down on the lack of development and Pyles tried to defend us some. The basic message is we have been recruiting pretty good so why so few All Americans.

Askren is a bitch when it comes to Oklahoma State, let's be honest. Dude will go out of his way to bash us so anything from him is taken with a grade of slaw.

But we have been recruiting extremely well, and we have not been living up to expectations unfortunately. Some of that is due to putting people at the wrong weights, some of that is due to injuries and flameouts, but most is due to coaching.

We need to evolve with the times, and I just don't think someone like Chris Perry can be a national champion coach. Elite Leg rider, but the only one that wrestles that style is Daton, and look what it's gotten him. We will need to take someone from Cael's tree to be able to get back to the top and adopt his style imo.

 

[cachap5327]

You have to wonder if Casey Cunningham is ready to move out of Cael's shadow and run a program of his own. One would think that he has had several offers over the years, but none as good as OSU. I would definitely give him a call if and when we are ready for a new coach (like last year).

 

[Okie_Pat]

You have to wonder if Casey Cunningham is ready to move out of Cael's shadow and run a program of his own. One would think that he has had several offers over the years, but none as good as OSU. I would definitely give him a call if and when we are ready for a new coach (like last year).

It would be a double win bc PSU would likely be set back by this. He’s the lead coach for the upper weights 165-285 where they’ve had the majority of their national champs.

 

[turfpoke]

Well, Chris Pendleton is the reason Askren wasn't a 4 time champ.

Askren’s daddy is Chris Pendleton.

 

[turfpoke]

It would be a double win bc PSU would likely be set back by this. He’s the lead coach for the upper weights 165-285 where they’ve had the majority of their national champs.

Casey Cunningham plus NIL might get a few transfers too.

 

[Wrassler17]

I hope John takes this as a wake-up call and makes major changes. But Cunningham would probably be on the short list if John did retire. I'm not sure he is looking to strike out on his own though. Got a pretty good thing going there. And I think he'd need assurances from the administration and boosters that the $ & support are in place.

Rob Koll would have been a great choice if the timing had worked. He's a program builder. A CEO type HC as Harley said. Fundraising, relationships, hiring the right people for the right positions. Had the Friedman wrestling center built, got the Cornell RTC going, and even got a sponsor in Spartan Combat that backs some of the NIL deals.

 

[Okie_Pat]

Well he’d pretty much be working with a blank slate here as we are so far behind with everything.

 

[giddyup]

I don’t know who posted it but we are the Texas football equivalent in wrestling

Always ranked high in recruiting, always underperforming expectations

 

[Okie_Pat]

I don’t know who posted it but we are the Texas football equivalent in wrestling

Always ranked high in recruiting, always underperforming expectations

I disagree. Texas athletics are very well funded.

 

[biocowboy]

I don’t know who posted it but we are the Texas football equivalent in wrestling

Always ranked high in recruiting, always underperforming expectations

I can buy that.

 

[biocowboy]

Where has Lee been? We need some sunshine pumpers like Robert Allen is for football.

I have to think the silence from the OSU camp is due to being out of bullets.

 

[Harleycowboy]

Where has Lee been? We need some sunshine pumpers like Robert Allen is for football.

I have to think the silence from the OSU camp is due to being out of bullets.

I listened to his podcast today after Nationals it was a pretty realistic assessment except maybe how long it will take to turn things around.