The only opinions I care about are those wrestlers who have the goal, discipline and and are putting in the work necessary to be national champions. I would listen to the opinions of the rest of the room and do the opposite.
Killing a program
- Thread starter Inky29
- Start date
So who are those wrestlers then whose opinions you care about and whose opinions do you not care about?
Honestly, being disconnected from his team is not something new for John. Nothing is changing as long as John's still HC. If you are ok with Top 20 finishes then do nothing.
Honestly, being disconnected from his team is not something new for John. Nothing is changing as long as John's still HC. If you are ok with Top 20 finishes then do nothing.
To be honest I don’t really care about any opinions of the student athletes. My response was to the poster who wanted a survey taken. There’s a long history of players wanting a certain coach and that coach subsequently failing. If I recall one of the arguments for Boynton was that the current players wanted him to succeed Underwood. Being buddies with the players is not always a path to coaching success
From what I've been told by past wrestlers is that they all love the guy, he's freaking John Smith, all have some kind of cool John Smith story. He's just "Coach" to all of them, but there's no real connection between him and the team. When you are struggling the coaching of "you need to work harder" isn't really making anyone better. That was how John got better but he's also the GOAT for a reason. It's no real coincidence that great athletes rarely make great coaches.
We are woefully prepared for the postseason and if it's an issue of just not having guys in the room that are wanting to work then that too falls back on the coach because he's the one that's signing these guys.
We are just an assistant coach dating a stripper from the Dragon's Lair and having a pet monkey away from being UT. That's not anywhere I want to be.
We are woefully prepared for the postseason and if it's an issue of just not having guys in the room that are wanting to work then that too falls back on the coach because he's the one that's signing these guys.
We are just an assistant coach dating a stripper from the Dragon's Lair and having a pet monkey away from being UT. That's not anywhere I want to be.
Again with the wrestlers not putting in the discipline. If I had to guess, either damage control from one of John’s partners in crime or very simply stated you have never been an athlete a day in your life. Not sure which rock you crawled out from under but only the top 15% of HS students in the US go on to be Division 1 athletes. Discipline is such an antiquated way of looking at it. Again, with the old school and uneducated thought process. Discipline in not taught at an elite and Olympic level. It is taught in youth wrestling rooms. Those athletes should have already competed on a World and National level. Yup. Recruiting is a big issue if the coaches think like you. Competing at a state HS level does not make you deserving of a Division 1 scholarship. Definitely, not being on a NCAA level team. This is not a complex problem. He has nothing to offer as a coach. Your post has nothing to offer for thought either.
From somebody who wants to take a poll of the room and make our coaching decision on the outcome?
Disagree with your simplistic explanation of discipline. There are layers of discipline as there are layers of athleticism. Every D1 athlete doesn’t possess the same level of discipline and commitment. Hell, the kids in our room possess different levels.
I wrestled in high school in the biggest class in Oklahoma at a state finals level (never won one)…..albeit 40 years ago. I lacked both the athleticism and commitment to be a D1 wrestler.
40 years ago, a finalist, in Oklahoma?
You have a say. Oklahoma then, is the NE now.
Back in my day, most of us were chasing Charlie Gomez’s wrestlers. Midwest City for me and then Ponca for those who later followed. He had some dominate teams.
That is a simplistic answer. Did you wrestle at a National level or world team level? You may want to study the accolades of a Penn State wrestler or any other college for that matter. You could never make it through a practice at a ROTC in HS if you are not disciplined. It is not physically possible. You should NEVER make it to a Division 1 team if you only know wrestling at a state level. Fact is competing over seas and on a National level is one of the best preparation for competing in college. Discipline should be irrelevant if the room is elite wrestlers as it should be at a college level. If time is being wasted on discipline by coaches at this level then there is your answer to why talent is wasted or not brought to the next level.
No. I wasn’t close to good enough to wrestle at that level. I did have the opportunity to occasional work out with a few national champions. The difference in levels between a very good high school wrestler and an elite D1 guy was night and day. Hard to even describe to be honest. May I ask your background ?
I would never comment on anything public unless I had experience. That would make me ignorant and a hypocrite.
I'm honestly surprised there isn't a giant sign outside of the wrestling room with this quote.
My fear is that without change we lose fans. Similar to the big time recruits today. They really don't know and view John Smith as the GOAT. That is maybe Cael or Dake in their eyes. We start losing these gray hair fans and who are replacing them? Go to the OSU duals and you will see the average age of our fans is 50+. Going to miss out on the next generation of OSU fans if we continue to finish outside the top 10.
It’s okay to have discussion with a guy that didn’t eat, sacrificed social living and stood in the the circle...even if it was only in our borders.
Being a wrestler takes nuts, on any level. Props to you if you were gifted enough to do it away from home.
But this line of thinking is part of the problem at OSU.
I was a good athlete that wore a singlet part of the year. But I take great pride that I had the balls to walk out, by myself, shake hands and compete. I also love the fact that I still shook hands when my athleticism didn’t give me my desired outcome.
Shaming a person that isn’t as accomplished as you are is poor form.
There was no shaming. Just the definition of what a Division 1 athlete is in an elite program. That is the truth. In order to be the best with the level of competitiveness. Division 1 wrestlers dedicate their whole life to get to the next level. You are simply not going to get to the Olympics or World stage if you join a program that is incapable of setting you up for the success. You simply cannot go from a HS level straight to competing with the elite if you have never trained with them. No special privileges. A good program has an ROTC available for those who qualify. This will leave those who cannot take the heat right where they should be. The mindset that an average HS student can spend 4 years of college getting ready for that level of competition without ever competing on a National level is absurd. That is why those athletes at Penn etc. are light years ahead. They are training at an Olympic level (before college) actual athletes that train with them hard. Not someone who walks on or stands there in jeans and boots and tells them what to do.
agree with all that. just read the usa today article about the championship day (Sunday) and not a whisper about OSU. That is really sad.
You guys are nuts if you think this is a technique problem.
You have 2 problems and that's it - RTC. John has to get behind this to get better recruits. It's why you lost Kerk.
2. And this is the bigger problem. John doesn't care about the "culture." If you show up to practice, he's good with it. OkieSt guys have an issue with partying. Period. It's why Mastro is no longer wrestling, and its why you're falling short with so many of the (very) talented guys on the roster. It's 100% the reason NC State has gotten so good, so fast. Zero tolerance on drinking/drugs. In or out of season. John could get away with at least shutting it down in season - but he doesn't.
You have 2 problems and that's it - RTC. John has to get behind this to get better recruits. It's why you lost Kerk.
2. And this is the bigger problem. John doesn't care about the "culture." If you show up to practice, he's good with it. OkieSt guys have an issue with partying. Period. It's why Mastro is no longer wrestling, and its why you're falling short with so many of the (very) talented guys on the roster. It's 100% the reason NC State has gotten so good, so fast. Zero tolerance on drinking/drugs. In or out of season. John could get away with at least shutting it down in season - but he doesn't.
? Mastro partied too much? Didn’t party enough? His disappearance has been mysterious, do you know something or is it just rumor mill type of stuff.
What's the tea. Are you saying he couldn't stop drinking or smoking or whatever with his wrestling teammates so he threw away his D1 athletic career to get sober as a 21/22 year old? Seems like a reach but hey there hasn't been any statement or anything so who knows.
I don't really buy the partying is a problem talk. It's so subjective and every time it comes up in discussion (excepting the few concrete examples from several years ago) it's always vague, no details, second/third/fourth-hand accounts.
Ha! Maybe even not in-season, but you don't have to look far from John to find an example of how even the off season partying affects wrestlers in-season.
There will never be an official statement. As a coach, as a university, you just can't. Makes you look bad.
Then just say it plain. Because there is absolutely a culture of work hard play hard at OSU.
At risk for not being qualified as a Wrestler to comment, I firmly believe that technique is a problem. The others, it's hard to disagree with.
We have watched, for several years now, guys work to get in on good attempts and much of the time, we see takedown with a ratio of us receiving the points around half the time. We lose a lot of close matches. Throw in the Chris Perry method of winning and you have less attempts which converts to less takedowns we achieve. So yes, I think it might be time to look at some innovation on how we Wrestle.
I watched several guys this weekend that appeared to Wrestle for countering in a scramble. Sloan seemed to do that often? From him and others, the attempt seemed to be lame and a set-up for scoring on the scramble?
One other area is weights we recruit hard. It seems Penn State has enormous success with bigger guys. The lower weights, to me show a ton more parity. This leads me to believe there is a ton more talent to chase at the lower weights and we might should look at getting better at bigger weights where there isn't as much parity? The results as follows disprove my theory somewhat besides 25 and 41. The rest of the weights seem to show more parity at the higher seeds though.
25 AAs - 3 not seeded to AA at 10, 27 and 28
33 AA's - 1 not seeded to AA at 13
41 AA's - 4 not seeded to AA at 10, 11, 12 and 17
49 AA's - 2 not seeded to AA at 10 and 12
57 AA's - 1 not seeded to AA at 9
65 AA's - 3 not seeded to AA at 9, 11 and 12
74 AA's - 1 not seeded to AA at 11
84 AA's -2 not seeded to AA at 11 and 14
97 AA's - 3 not seeded to AA at 9, 10 and 14
285 AA's - 3 not seeded to AA at 9, 10 and 11
HS kids that are in the 160 range can and often do play multiple sports which generates less of a talented pool of Wrestlers (not always.) Whereas kids that are smaller than that don't have much of an option on the gridiron or baseball field...so they Wrestle year round.
It is a given that heavier weights generally wrestle to recruiting better than the lighter weights. Finding athletic wresters is where we are missing. We recruit based off of past history (which is a decent indiicator of what they will accomplish). Athleticism is more of a determining factor of what they are capable of accomplishing.
Daton Fix is at best the fourth most athletic guy at 133 this year. Coaching did not fail him but speed and strength did.
Daton Fix is at best the fourth most athletic guy at 133 this year. Coaching did not fail him but speed and strength did.
On trackwrestling, there is a page that will show you largest seed to placement ranking. Out of the Top 10 on that list there were 3 from 25, 3 from 41 and 1 from 33, 49, 65 and 84.
I might be on to something, but it still seems my theory is kind of thin?
This can mean literally anything. That's what's frustrating about the "OSU is a partying program" conversation.
OSU doesn't have to make an official statement. Trevor himself could give his reasons for leaving the program, even if they're BS. "I've decided to take a break from the sport I love" or whatever.
John Smith will agree with you that larger weight recruits typically pan out better than lower weight recruits based off of other alternatives for the better athletes. I think we have generally underestimated the value of quickness in a recruit. PSU goes for speed and athleticism. It is almost mind boggling that Plott beat Storocci in highschool. Plott is very good and I think he will get better, but not Storocci better.
I get the frustration. it just will never happen. Partying, drugs, drinking, late nights, fighting. It's not just one thing as guys make individual decisions. But drinking, bars, parties - that is very much the life of a Okiest wrestler. And again. John is ok with it.
Obviously, it's not as bad during the season (you do have to make weight). But the offseason lifestyle absolutely plays a part in season as well.
My daughter rowed at UT on a scholarship. The team had loads of talent as UT can recruit. Her first practice the coach wanted them to row a 20k piece on ergs. She was next to a girl that rowed so hard that she passed out from fatigue at the very end of the piece and fell on my daughter. My daughter realized at that point she would never want to do something like that. She left the team the next year an the girl that passed out went to the Olypics a few years later. The girl would go out drinking every Saturday night and got it done, but she was at practice every morning at 6:30. Saturday was her only party night and they did not practice on Sunday.
I think partying can work, but you have to be ready to practice like you compete.
I think partying can work, but you have to be ready to practice like you compete.
Also not a wrestler (minus that one year in junior high when I somehow made the varsity team and got whooped all season long lol) it does seem like we set up most of our TDs from upper body stuff - collar ties/underhooks/elbow control. Snap downs happen but not often coupled with leg attacks, more like to wear the opponent down. And several guys have been into the "push on them until they take a shot or step out of bounds" kind of offense. Granted you don't want to set up bad takedowns but it feels like we could be taking more shots. So many periods go by without a shot taken and opportunities left wide open. Could postulate all day about why or what it means. AJ came in with a double leg from space but he had already developed it at high school.
I wrestled in HS and got the brakes beat off of me by some quasi-famous and notorious NCAA guys, as well as some NJCAA guys. But, as mentioned earlier, I don't know if that qualifies me to converse about some stuff?
Anyway, I would really love to see us field 10 dudes that are funky throwers like Galagaev! Shoot, give me the excitement of Chandler Rodgers 10 times a dual and I am pumped! As far as our technique goes, I am starting to wonder if singles are going to become something that isn't used as much. This tourney had tons more double legs and they seemed more effective when the scramble starts?
Not a wrestler, either, so not qualified to comment per at least one poster, but I think our technique is definitely lacking in some aspects. I am so tired of seeing our guys dive straight in on a single leg, only to have the opponent drape over the back and grab an ankle to wait for the stalemate. Shouldn't there be some sideways motion, twisting, lifting, or circling with the single leg attempt in order to negate that draping action? Another frustrating thing is our guys lack of ability to get off bottom. It is rampant throughout the line-up and seems to be getting worse each year. Even Daton struggled at times against mediocre competition. Flip side of that is that some of our guys can't ride worth a hoot.
I also agree with a post that said we need to recruit quicker guys. You can teach a lot of things, but speed isn't one of them. Plus, I still hold that we are not as strong, usually, as our opponents. We constantly hear that our guys struggle to make weight, but it seems that we are always smaller and less muscular. One plus this year was that we seemed to be in better shape and seldom ran out of gas. Several SV wins because of that.
Throws are always exciting to watch. One of the things I love about Witcraft. It is almost guaranteed that someone will wind up on their back at least once.
I also agree with a post that said we need to recruit quicker guys. You can teach a lot of things, but speed isn't one of them. Plus, I still hold that we are not as strong, usually, as our opponents. We constantly hear that our guys struggle to make weight, but it seems that we are always smaller and less muscular. One plus this year was that we seemed to be in better shape and seldom ran out of gas. Several SV wins because of that.
Throws are always exciting to watch. One of the things I love about Witcraft. It is almost guaranteed that someone will wind up on their back at least once.
Haha don't worry I've been shamed by somebody on here for offering my opinion because I'm not an active wrestling coach or referee. Ah well, internet gonna internet.
I bolded a couple things that resonated with me. The funkiness to finish a TD isn't there. We used to have it but it seems to have left the regimen. Heck the funkiest we seem to get is a swing single! It seems like we're focused on a specific set of fundamentals. Meanwhile I watched a bunch of non-OSU early & mid-round matches last weekend and was surprised time and again by TD setups and finishes that I'm not used to seeing. And it's not just All American types that are using funk to surprise their opponents.
I don't know that our guys aren't quick per se but we do have a lot of matches where we plod through and try to strongarm our way into TDs. It's a physical style but often a mismatch going up against guys that have extra speed or don't want to tie up with us.
Our endurance did look good this year. A bunch of matches won because of our endurance. Flip side is that we gave up a LOT of early takedowns and needed that 3rd period endurance to help us come back and win.
