Killing a program

[CowboyMedic]

What's the solution to fix it. Clean house? Big NIL money?

I would love to see us get Andrew Alirez from Northern Colorado & Parker Keckeisen from Northern Iowa.

 

[topc22blue]

What's the solution to fix it. Clean house? Big NIL money?

I would love to see us get Andrew Alirez from Northern Colorado & Parker Keckeisen from Northern Iowa.

Haha. Wouldn’t we all.

 

[Okie_Pat]

What's the solution to fix it. Clean house? Big NIL money?

I would love to see us get Andrew Alirez from Northern Colorado & Parker Keckeisen from Northern Iowa.

Why would they come here besides a large sum of money? They won’t win here with these coaches

 

[BrettOSU17]

It's time. Such a delicate transition but we can't continue down this road with these results. This program is too proud to be where we are right now.

 

[bwel9339]

You don't understand....John Smith hates asking for money....he hates fundraising. He's the last guy i would have fundraising...
But you are right, he should retire before he gets back to Stillwater.

Let him show up and sign autographs, just not coach anymore.

 

[Sebastian]

Assistant AD for wrestling. $50k salary to show up for recruiting and show a few moves. Keep 1-2 assistants max if they warrant, for recruiting, not necessarily as full assistants. Hire Pop, Pendleton, Burroughs, or somebody great.

 

[Janderson123]

Don't know what happened to my post. I wrote that we were co champions of the conference dual season and tournament runner-up. We improved a lot during this season to become a fairly decent dual team and small tournament team. We do not have many highly ranked individuals to place high at nationals.i am a former letterman and support our wrestlers and coaches,

Appreciate the support, but it seems worth asking - is there any point at which you'd suggest a change? I mean, we're sitting behind Purdue, Princeton, etc. If John's bigger than the program, fine, but let's start there so we can stop expecting results.

 

[cbond]

We have 0 wrestlers in tomorrow night’s session. 0. We have 2 All Americans. No team title since 2006. How does this align with Dynasty Defined???

 

[Okie_Pat]

We have 0 wrestlers in tomorrow night’s session. 0. We have 2 All Americans. No team title since 2006. How does this align with Dynasty Defined???

I guess we’re defining what a Dynasty isn’t

 

[giddyup]

John Smith should retire tomorrow. He is letting our kids down. Make him an assistant AD and let him help fundraise. This tournament, like last year has been a catastrophe. Hire Dake, hell hire the Cornell coach. Whatever it takes!

Yeah Cornell guys look good , they knocked alot of our guys out

 

[Rdcldad]

i don’t know what the answers are but

we can all agree this is a sad and disappointing state of affairs

 

[Old Number Nine]

I believe that as a wrestler there was no one that has had more toughness, guts and character to do whatever it took to win then John Smith. Now, he should martial up every once of toughness, guts and character to do the honorable thing: Admit to himself that it is truly the end of his era and retire with grace and humility.

 

[OKSTATE1]

All legends eventually wear out their welcome, just a fact of life. This is not a delicate conversation with John given the horrific results. He is a competitor and knows the expectations and knows better than anyone this is massive failure at OSU. If he can’t voluntarily resign and help with a transition, he has become an egotistical and selfish coach who sees himself bigger than program.

There is no better time than NOW to tell John to resign or you cut him. It can’t get any worse.

If he never wants to be around the program because OSU cut him because he is at least 10 years past his expiration date? Who cares?

Boggles my mind for non-revenue sport some think we have to handle this with kid gloves.

Our admin should be absolutely giddy right now John has made it super easy to move on, if I was Weiberg it would be a relief John’s failure is so horrific, EVERYONE knows it is time. Which means you have waited far too long. Weiberg inherited a free pass on this one in terms of what he inherited and how obvious John has made it he is one of the worst coaches in wrestling currently, and unfortunately one of the worst in OSU wrestling history.

This is so easy to do.

 

[JAY45]

We’ve been talking about this a ton at the Tournament this weekend. Seth summed it up nicely. With or without this current Staff, this absolutely has to happen:

3. Model Penn State​

I have no idea how to change all of the things surrounding OSU wrestling to get them back on top, but take whatever Penn State is doing and do that. The Nittany Lions’ model is absolutely dominating college wrestling right now and has for years, so take that thing, and replicate it.

 

[Harleycowboy]

I believe that as a wrestler there was no one that has had more toughness, guts and character to do whatever it took to win then John Smith. Now, he should martial up every once of toughness, guts and character to do the honorable thing: Admit to himself that it is truly the end of his era and retire with grace and humility.

John did not look good in Daton's corner. Looked like he didn't sleep much and maybe looked beaten.

 

[Wrassler17]

We’ve been talking about this a ton at the Tournament this weekend. Seth summed it up nicely. With or without this current Staff, this absolutely has to happen:

3. Model Penn State​

I have no idea how to change all of the things surrounding OSU wrestling to get them back on top, but take whatever Penn State is doing and do that. The Nittany Lions’ model is absolutely dominating college wrestling right now and has for years, so take that thing, and replicate it.

Ok, but isn't that what everyone has tried to do - copy PSU? Every top team in the country started fundraising for their RTC years ago when they saw how it helped with recruiting and development. Except us. Now they are all jumping on the NIL bandwagon (smart). Is there any doubt Ohio St, Iowa & Michigan are all in on that? Even OU.

And besides copying PSU, this staff has shown zero originality. You recently mentioned getting a closer tie to MMA. I recall derek_state proposing that 4 years ago - having a gym in Stillwater where fighters and wrestlers could train. Didn't Bo Nickal just open one in Happy Valley? And Cowguy proposed housing for RTC athletes 5 years ago. That was before ISU did the same thing a year later.

 

[JAY45]

Ok, but isn't that what everyone has tried to do - copy PSU? Every top team in the country started fundraising for their RTC years ago when they saw how it helped with recruiting and development. Except us. Now they are all jumping on the NIL bandwagon (smart). Is there any doubt Ohio St, Iowa & Michigan are all in on that? Even OU.

And besides copying PSU, this staff has shown zero originality. You recently mentioned getting a closer tie to MMA. I recall derek_state proposing that 4 years ago - having a gym in Stillwater where fighters and wrestlers could train. Didn't Bo Nickal just open one in Happy Valley? And Cowguy proposed housing for RTC athletes 5 years ago. That was before ISU did the same thing a year later.

The difference is, OSU is not “everyone else”.
OSU is the one place that COULD replicate PSU and compete. It’s Alabama and Georgia in Football. Who cares if it’s not original?

Also, all options should be on the table - the MMA idea doesn’t exclude replicating Penn State. Do all of the above!

Being the counter to PSU will resonate with kids.

 

[Okie_Pat]

I think it all starts with a staff that has the willingness to change. Currently that doesn’t exist. Also, if we want to replicate PSU why don’t we just go after Cael’s brother who apparently has a huge role in the development there. If you paid him what John is making he’d come.

 

[JAY45]

I’d go after Cody or Cunningham 1st

 

[Okie_Pat]

I’d go after Cody or Cunningham 1st

Then do that. I mean if you want to be PSU you need someone from there that knows what they are doing.

 

[alex1fly]

At this point we’re chasing not only PSU but the other 20 teams also chasing PSU.

 

[Wrassler17]

The difference is, OSU is not “everyone else”.
OSU is the one place that COULD replicate PSU and compete. It’s Alabama and Georgia in Football. Who cares if it’s not original?

Also, all options should be on the table - the MMA idea doesn’t exclude replicating Penn State. Do all of the above!

Being the counter to PSU will resonate with kids.

Well first off, it's crazy to think OSU is the only school that can replicate PSU. How about Iowa? Bigger fan base, more $, the more recent dynasty.

And the point wasn't to do one or the other (copy or innovate). It's that we aren't doing either. Sure everything should be an option. The MMA gym and the athlete housing were proposed on this board long before other teams actually did it. Plus copying alone wouldn't get it done anyway because PSU isn't standing still. They continue to adapt. They were one of the first wrestling schools in the country to create an NIL collective (maybe the 1st). Why do you think RBY came back this year? Because he said he wanted to get paid and he did.

Here's a straightforward example. PSU lightens their training schedule the last month of the season to keep guys fresh. But they aren't the only one. Seth interviewed Giddens & Roller and asked them why Bixby peaked at state. They said the coaches cut practices down to 40 minutes consisting of a hard drill & handball. Ray Blake brought that idea to a HS, so why aren't we doing it?

We need forward thinkers if we want to be in contention again. Copy what makes sense & also implement what others aren't doing.

 

[JAY45]

Well first off, it's crazy to think OSU is the only school that can replicate PSU. How about Iowa? Bigger fan base, more $, the more recent dynasty.

And the point wasn't to do one or the other (copy or innovate). It's that we aren't doing either. Sure everything should be an option. The MMA gym and the athlete housing were proposed on this board long before other teams actually did it. Plus copying alone wouldn't get it done anyway because PSU isn't standing still. They continue to adapt. They were one of the first wrestling schools in the country to create an NIL collective (maybe the 1st). Why do you think RBY came back this year? Because he said he wanted to get paid and he did.

Here's a straightforward example. PSU lightens their training schedule the last month of the season to keep guys fresh. But they aren't the only one. Seth interviewed Giddens & Roller and asked them why Bixby peaked at state. They said the coaches cut practices down to 40 minutes consisting of a hard drill & handball. Ray Blake brought that idea to a HS, so why aren't we doing it?

We need forward thinkers if we want to be in contention again. Copy what makes sense & also implement what others aren't doing.

OSU is not the only. They are also not everyone else, which is what you said.

Alabama, Georgia, Ohio State in Football....Kansas, Duke, Kentucky in basketball...

OSU and a very small, select group could replicate what PSU is doing. OSU hasn't even tried.

It's a struggle to see how what we are saying differs much.

 

[biocowboy]

John Smith on coming back next year. “I think I’ll be back. They may can my ass, I don’t know?”

 

[Wrassler17]

OSU is not the only. They are also not everyone else, which is what you said.

Alabama, Georgia, Ohio State in Football....Kansas, Duke, Kentucky in basketball...

OSU and a very small, select group could replicate what PSU is doing. OSU hasn't even tried.

It's a struggle to see how what we are saying differs much.

We aren't really saying anything different. You posted a suggestion by Seth that we replicate PSU. My point was that it's not that simple. Others have tried, including big programs like Iowa, and it hasn't worked so far. Basically we need to do more, like also coming up with new ideas, which this board has done but the coaches haven't.

 

[chasepollard]

We aren't really saying anything different. You posted a suggestion by Seth that we replicate PSU. My point was that it's not that simple. Others have tried, including big programs like Iowa, and it hasn't worked so far. Basically we need to do more, like also coming up with new ideas, which this board has done but the coaches haven't.

I grew up with coaches completely shunning guys that threw. Every practice/dual was like an intervention with an addict if you were a thrower.

I think things have changed in Wrestling to where throwers may become welcome?

You set-up and make a good, deep shot, only to end up being scrambled into a stale-mate or giving up a TD. Why not be an accomplished technician AND a thrower? The profit margins are bigger for throwers and the risks have become the same...miss and give up 2.

That could one thing we do as a program? Recruit and develop guys that are excellent 5pt movers, but can also generate TDs when they are there?

 

[Okie_Pat]

I grew up with coaches completely shunning guys that threw. Every practice/dual was like an intervention with an addict if you were a thrower.

I think things have changed in Wrestling to where throwers may become welcome?

You set-up and make a good, deep shot, only to end up being scrambled into a stale-mate or giving up a TD. Why not be an accomplished technician AND a thrower? The profit margins are bigger for throwers and the risks have become the same...miss and give up 2.

That could one thing we do as a program? Recruit and develop guys that are excellent 5pt movers, but can also generate TDs when they are there?

But if then have to start recruiting guys who’s technique fits this model right? Greco guys preferably. I like the creative small stylistic changes that could make a big difference if proven effective.

 

[chasepollard]

But if then have to start recruiting guys who’s technique fits this model right? Greco guys preferably. I like the creative small stylistic changes that could make a big difference if proven effective.

Just spitballing.

I’m just saying it seems to be a change in philosophy could help a lot too?

Plus, the high-flying, high scoring style could generate more of a following?

 

[Wrassler17]

Just spitballing.

I’m just saying it seems to be a change in philosophy could help a lot too?

Plus, the high-flying, high scoring style could generate more of a following?

It's an interesting idea.

It would definitely make things more entertaining and might grow the fan base as you indicated. I do agree that you'd need to target a specific type of recruit, like a Reece Witcraft or a Chandler Rogers. The guys who are already comfortable in those positions. It's just very difficult to get most wrestlers to change stylistically.

 

[Harleycowboy]

John Smith on coming back next year. “I think I’ll be back. They may can my ass, I don’t know?”

Is this from a real interview today? If Oklahoma State allows Coach Smith back without an honest, thorough assessment of the complete program by John, the assistant coaches and athletic directors and maybe Cael Sanderson. John has to acknowledge mistakes and commitment to change or we will never get to number 35. This would include the regional training center, new facilities, new training ideas etc. You would think after this year even he can't be in such a state of denial. I think he just wants to do the things he enjoys and is comfortable doing and the result has been the last 17 years of struggling and mostly underachieving. I remember reading some story where I think it was about Pat P when he had a goal of getting in the top 10 quickly and John told him he needed to be realistic and North Carilina State goal should be not near as high as that maybe get in the top 20. Pat P. disagreed and he was right, but he also did the work that was necessary.

 

[biocowboy]

Is this from a real interview today? If Oklahoma State allows Coach Smith back without an honest, thorough assessment of the complete program by John, the assistant coaches and athletic directors and maybe Cael Sanderson. John has to acknowledge mistakes and commitment to change or we will never get to number 35. This would include the regional training center, new facilities, new training ideas etc. You would think after this year even he can't be in such a state of denial. I think he just wants to do the things he enjoys and is comfortable doing and the result has been the last 17 years of struggling and mostly underachieving. I remember reading some story where I think it was about Pat P when he had a goal of getting in the top 10 quickly and John told him he needed to be realistic and North Carilina State goal should be not near as high as that maybe get in the top 20. Pat P. disagreed and he was right, but he also did the work that was necessary.

Yes that quote is cut and pasted from the Pistols Firing site.

 

[chasepollard]

It's an interesting idea.

It would definitely make things more entertaining and might grow the fan base as you indicated. I do agree that you'd need to target a specific type of recruit, like a Reece Witcraft or a Chandler Rogers. The guys who are already comfortable in those positions. It's just very difficult to get most wrestlers to change stylistically.

Yeah, the sport has spent tons of effort shunning those styles. Which limits that pool of talent considerably.

If another program sees what I see, it could be an even smaller pool.

But yes, Chandler is exactly who I was thinking of from us. But I also think of Nickal, Galagaev and even Johnny Thompson. That man snaked his way through the NCAAs and everybody knew it was coming the last two years.

It just makes sense to me from a profit standpoint.

-really good D to keep matches in reach.
-still teach excellence on bottom.
-teach throws and big moves in multiples...no one trick ponies.
-keep good solid technique in nuetral, but stay away from low-level stuff. More stuff above the knees when shooting to avoid giving up all that space. This way, you can execute a throw on a failed or fake leg attempt.

I’ve stuck some great guys with headlocks and lat drops. I also got destroyed relying on throws as an offense. I think a blend is a good route! Same risks, higher rewards!

 

[chasepollard]

Is this from a real interview today? If Oklahoma State allows Coach Smith back without an honest, thorough assessment of the complete program by John, the assistant coaches and athletic directors and maybe Cael Sanderson. John has to acknowledge mistakes and commitment to change or we will never get to number 35. This would include the regional training center, new facilities, new training ideas etc. You would think after this year even he can't be in such a state of denial. I think he just wants to do the things he enjoys and is comfortable doing and the result has been the last 17 years of struggling and mostly underachieving. I remember reading some story where I think it was about Pat P when he had a goal of getting in the top 10 quickly and John told him he needed to be realistic and North Carilina State goal should be not near as high as that maybe get in the top 20. Pat P. disagreed and he was right, but he also did the work that was necessary.

I think part of the problem is kids come to Wrestle for John Smith and don’t get to. They come and Wrestle for Chris Perry...who was a great for us.

But, I think Chris is part of our problem. I see a ton of his “style” with our guys. Set up a 7 minute match to give you one good scoring opp and tough out the rest of the match.

We are so far from the tenacious scoring of our other greats it’s not funny!

 

[biocowboy]

One of the commentaries made the point that Penn State wrestlers are ready to come in and compete at age 18 and don’t care what anyone else says

 

[biocowboy]

Smith apologized for missing and said Travis Wittlake had to go to the hospital to get treated for an arm infection. Smith went to be with him.

This is from Adam Engel last night.-This is a weak excuse to avoid tough questions

 

[biocowboy]

Below are teams that finished above us 😳

North Carolina, 38
South Dakota State, 37
Princeton, 33.5
Minnesota, 30.5
Northern Iowa, 29

 

[PoOsKuE]

Below are teams that finished above us 😳

North Carolina, 38
South Dakota State, 37
Princeton, 33.5
Minnesota, 30.5
Northern Iowa, 29

Keckeisen could still get a point deducted.

Hopefully for excessive celebration.

 

[Wrassler17]

Is this from a real interview today? If Oklahoma State allows Coach Smith back without an honest, thorough assessment of the complete program by John, the assistant coaches and athletic directors and maybe Cael Sanderson. John has to acknowledge mistakes and commitment to change or we will never get to number 35. This would include the regional training center, new facilities, new training ideas etc. You would think after this year even he can't be in such a state of denial. I think he just wants to do the things he enjoys and is comfortable doing and the result has been the last 17 years of struggling and mostly underachieving. I remember reading some story where I think it was about Pat P when he had a goal of getting in the top 10 quickly and John told him he needed to be realistic and North Carilina State goal should be not near as high as that maybe get in the top 20. Pat P. disagreed and he was right, but he also did the work that was necessary.

Interview is on Rokfin now and should be up on YouTube soon.

I think the most (only?) encouraging thing was John implying that we will look at transfers as an option.

 

[chasepollard]

Interview is on Rokfin now and should be up on YouTube soon.

I think the most (only?) encouraging thing was John implying that we will look at transfers as an option.

You don’t see any RTC movement?

 

[turfpoke]

Smith apologized for missing and said Travis Wittlake had to go to the hospital to get treated for an arm infection. Smith went to be with him.

This is from Adam Engel last night.-This is a weak excuse to avoid tough questions

I know you’re fired up but come on man.