I can see a scenario where joe wins more matches but scores less points than Chandler.
I still hate this. If joe doesn’t perform, there will be a lot of upset people.
Joe over Chandler at 165
- Thread starter OkieSpladle
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I can see a scenario where joe wins more matches but scores less points than Chandler.
I still hate this. If joe doesn’t perform, there will be a lot of upset people.
Probably what was considered was applying for a 5th year waiver as opposed to a medical hardship waiver (redshirt). Even with the new relaxed standards, it would have been extremely unlikely.
First off, all is settled and it’s just discussion at this point, but I’d be curious if this is put in the context of scoring at NCAAs. I could be wrong, but I’d wager that Rogers has outscored Smith in their AA seasons at NCAAs even considering his lower placings.
Yeah, I get all that, including Joe being John's son. It just surprises me, that's all. John is an icon of this sport, he has to be one of the most genuine and revered people in it. Who cares what the 'wrestling community' thinks? Reminds me of the adage - "never explain, your friends do not need it and your enemies won't believe it anyway".
Pretty sure Joe outscored him in 2016 since he AA's and Chandler didn't. In 2017, it was probably even or real close. Joe placed one spot higher with one major. Chandler got a couple falls though.
Last year, Chandler didn't exactly put up a ton of bonus points in the tourney. He lost in the first round and only had one bonus point win. Obviously, Joe redshirted.
I agree Chandler has more bonus point potential but is hasn't played out that way so far in their careers at NCAAs. Chandler also wasn't looking at a very good seed either (although a lot better than Joe).
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Why? Let's put it this way...(1) team has wrestle-off and announces results or (2) team has wrestle-off and publishes details of the results, along with an explanation of how/why it occurred. You think the second one will prevent some opposing coaches (and fan bases) from negative recruiting against you?
I agree people are going to lose their mind if Joe doesn't AA. That being said, he won the spot and it wasn't all that close. Should John not send the better guy?
Penn State and Ohio State are sending their best guys at each weight. We can't afford not too.
Yes - I was only reviewing their AA seasons in my note. I believe that in 17, Chandler led off with 2 pins, whereas Joe hasn't recorded a fall yet at NCAAs. Different styles certainly lead to different point totals - if points are the goal over placement.
Point well taken - I think the major negative (recruitment-wise) is that it looks like (and it may not be accurate) that the program is not focused year round, and that leadership isn't concerned with that. Senior AA's get replaced (think Nevills at PSU), it just looks bad when a guy comes in way out of weight and shape, and happens to be son of the HC.
It's possible. I do think the bonus potential of Rogers at nationals is overhyped though. He had one TF last year and the rest were decisions.
Now Smiths draw will also be a factor due to his impending low seed.
And as much as we can talk about seeding, it is not like Chandler was looking at a great seed either. Chandler's best win this year is a decision over Connor Flynn of Missouri. Chandler's body of work was really hampered this year by his injury. He didn't wrestle much post-Scuffle and lost to the only top guys he hit all year (Ashworth and Chance).
A lot of interesting comments from John today.
1.) The late wrestle off was also to make sure Chandler was ready, fully recovered from his injury and had time to prepare.
2.) He thought Weigel's injury was season ending.
3.) Point total and predictions of where they would finish didn't come into play. Both would have to wrestle well above seed to make AA.
4.) You can tell the conference losing a qualifier is a big deal to him.
5.) A lot of decisions made this year with the lineup where to keep dual strength as best as possible. Duals still important at OSU and for the sport.
6.) Unique situation that may happen once every decade if ever.
7.) He didn't watch the wrestle off.
8.) Tons of high praise for Chandler and the impact he has had on his teammates on and off the mat.
9.) Chandler isn't happy and John wouldn't expect him to be. He is a winner and a competitor.
10.) Most guys on the team have been light. Joe has weighed in the low 170s or high 160s after practice for the last month.
11.) Jacobe and Greer had a hard time keeping weight on for 184/197. Would have been hard for those guys at higher weights. Feels like they will be a lot better at the smaller weights.
12.) John was talking about the automatic qualifier system and said it makes sense it some ways but that things happen in a season that hurt kids for stuff outside of their control. He said it is not Joe's fault he hasn't been at 165. Sounds like John didn't like the idea of Joe taking Chandler's sport while he was hurt. He wishes there was a way to honor matches that happen at different weight classes.
13.) Whoever wins 133 at NCAAs should be outstanding wrestler. Deepest weight in the NCAA ever.
All in all it sounds like the injury to Weigel (and to a lesser degree Chandler) jacked up everything up and that Joe would have challenged for the `65 spot a long time ago if not for that. .
https://pistolsfiringblog.com/osu-w...ecaps-wrestle-off-big-12-tourney-preparation/
1.) The late wrestle off was also to make sure Chandler was ready, fully recovered from his injury and had time to prepare.
2.) He thought Weigel's injury was season ending.
3.) Point total and predictions of where they would finish didn't come into play. Both would have to wrestle well above seed to make AA.
4.) You can tell the conference losing a qualifier is a big deal to him.
5.) A lot of decisions made this year with the lineup where to keep dual strength as best as possible. Duals still important at OSU and for the sport.
6.) Unique situation that may happen once every decade if ever.
7.) He didn't watch the wrestle off.
8.) Tons of high praise for Chandler and the impact he has had on his teammates on and off the mat.
9.) Chandler isn't happy and John wouldn't expect him to be. He is a winner and a competitor.
10.) Most guys on the team have been light. Joe has weighed in the low 170s or high 160s after practice for the last month.
11.) Jacobe and Greer had a hard time keeping weight on for 184/197. Would have been hard for those guys at higher weights. Feels like they will be a lot better at the smaller weights.
12.) John was talking about the automatic qualifier system and said it makes sense it some ways but that things happen in a season that hurt kids for stuff outside of their control. He said it is not Joe's fault he hasn't been at 165. Sounds like John didn't like the idea of Joe taking Chandler's sport while he was hurt. He wishes there was a way to honor matches that happen at different weight classes.
13.) Whoever wins 133 at NCAAs should be outstanding wrestler. Deepest weight in the NCAA ever.
All in all it sounds like the injury to Weigel (and to a lesser degree Chandler) jacked up everything up and that Joe would have challenged for the `65 spot a long time ago if not for that. .
https://pistolsfiringblog.com/osu-w...ecaps-wrestle-off-big-12-tourney-preparation/
Always loved that you get a real explanation from John Smith. I do wish he'd have omitted the comments about Joe's weight - I mean, this could've been settled a long time ago if he just came in near weight like everyone else, probably for the better of all parties involved IMO.
I agree that wasn't a great look. But none of us know all the details behind it. There was some talk of an injury - back in early September Joe retweeted Jordan Burroughs, loosely saying "do what you can, can't wrestle then run, can't run then lift". So who really knows?
Now if Joe was healthy all summer, or if there is a broader issue with multiple guys not adhering to their off season plans, then that needs to be addressed obviously. My point is that some opposing coaches will say it even if it's not true. I'm sure you are familiar with Spencer Lee's comments about the negative recruiting he experienced.
better guy head to head
don’t know if it’s the better tournament guy
my money would be on chandler
Chandler has yet to outscore Joe at NCAAs when they've both wrestled.
That's an interesting way to phrase the argument - as though every other tournament (there's only been one they've both been at) somehow is not relevant. Try this on for size - Joe Smith has exactly ONE bonus point victory at the NCAAs versus multiple pins for Rogers, and fewer points in his AA seasons than Rogers. I'm not saying it should change the decision, but make a real comparison.
I don't think this is true at all. Unless I've got my years confused they've wrestled NCAAs together twice: 2016 and 2017.
2016 Joe definitely scored more points than Chandler.
Chandler did not place
Joe AA'd
In 2017 there point totals were damn near even. Chandler might have outscored him by half a point.
Chandler got 5th with 2 falls.
Joe got 4th with one major.
Last year Chandler had one bonus point win and it wasn't a fall. Obviously Joe didn't wrestle.
I get that Chandler has more potential to bonus someone than Joe. I'm not really arguing that point. I'm just saying when it comes to what has actually happened at nationals to this point, Chandler hasn't scored any more points for OSU than Joe. I think the notion he scores more for the team even while finishing lower than Joe is a little flawed. It is really hard to outscore someone by a lot while placing lower. Not impossible but hard.
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It is what it is. The rankings were fair and very few truly believed Chandler would win head to head with Joe. It does impact our sense of fairness as one wrestler did all that was asked of him and the other for whatever reason(Injury,lack of discipline) did not appear to be in wrestling shape. Chandler had a great career and I truly admire and respect him and his entire family. However, the better wrestler won and I am on board supporting him 100%. I believe Joe will capture a third All-American status and I hope he prepares better in the coming off-season and come back and be National champion next year.
LETS GO POKES!!!
LETS GO POKES!!!
just curious
were the rankings done over multiple days
making weight each day after tournament like practices?
or make weight put your toe on the line and get after it?
ps there’s a hole in the lineup at 57
I would be shocked if they didn't make Joe make and hold weight for a few days before the wreslte off which correctly, was a 2 out of 3.
Neither of these guys could make 157.
Someone smarter than me can check the math, but I believe that Chandler's 5th place season was worth at least two more than Joe's 4th. Just so the numbers are clear.
2018:
165
Chandler Rogers (24-6) placed 8th and scored 6.5 team points.
2017:
157
Joseph Smith (16-6) placed 4th and scored 13.5 team points.
Chandler Rogers (25-8) placed 5th and scored 14.0 team points.
2016:
157
Joseph Smith (35-5) placed 7th and scored 6.5 team points.
Chandler Rogers (29-9) place is unknown and scored 5.0 team points.
165
Chandler Rogers (24-6) placed 8th and scored 6.5 team points.
- Champ. Round 1 - Jonathan Viruet (Brown) 22-15 won by decision over Chandler Rogers (Oklahoma State) 24-6 (Dec 6-5)
- Cons. Round 1 - Chandler Rogers (Oklahoma State) 24-6 won by tech fall over Bryce Martin (Indiana) 15-10 (TF-1.5 4:40 (16-1))
- Cons. Round 2 - Chandler Rogers (Oklahoma State) 24-6 won in sudden victory - 1 over Logan Massa (Michigan) 17-8 (SV-1 7-5)
- Cons. Round 3 - Chandler Rogers (Oklahoma State) 24-6 won by decision over Anthony Valencia (Arizona State) 27-10 (Dec 10-8)
- Cons. Round 4 - Chandler Rogers (Oklahoma State) 24-6 won by decision over Chad Walsh (Rider) 26-3 (Dec 11-9)
- Cons. Round 5 - Chance Marsteller (Lock Haven) 45-4 won by decision over Chandler Rogers (Oklahoma State) 24-6 (Dec 9-7)
- 7th Place Match - Jonathon Chavez (Cornell) 23-6 won by decision over Chandler Rogers (Oklahoma State) 24-6 (Dec 10-5)
2017:
157
Joseph Smith (16-6) placed 4th and scored 13.5 team points.
- Champ. Round 1 - Joseph Smith (Oklahoma State) 16-6 won by decision over Alex Griffin (Purdue) 26-15 (Dec 4-3)
- Champ. Round 2 - Joseph Smith (Oklahoma State) 16-6 won by decision over May Bethea (Pennsylvania) 27-11 (Dec 6-3)
- Quarterfinal - Tyler Berger (Nebraska) 36-6 won in sudden victory - 1 over Joseph Smith (Oklahoma State) 16-6 (SV-1 3-1)
- Cons. Round 4 - Joseph Smith (Oklahoma State) 16-6 won by decision over Jake Short (Minnesota) 26-14 (Dec 3-2)
- Cons. Round 5 - Joseph Smith (Oklahoma State) 16-6 won by decision over Sal Mastriani (Virginia Tech) 20-9 (Dec 9-3)
- Cons. Semi - Joseph Smith (Oklahoma State) 16-6 won by major decision over Dylan Palacio (Cornell) 11-4 (MD 10-0)
- 3rd Place Match - Michael Kemerer (Iowa) 33-3 won in sudden victory - 1 over Joseph Smith (Oklahoma State) 16-6 (SV-1 7-1)
Chandler Rogers (25-8) placed 5th and scored 14.0 team points.
- Champ. Round 1 - Chandler Rogers (Oklahoma State) 25-8 won by fall over Andrew Fogarty (North Dakota State University) 23-13 (Fall 2:28)
- Champ. Round 2 - Chandler Rogers (Oklahoma State) 25-8 won by fall over Dylan Cottrell (West Virginia) 19-6 (Fall 0:52)
- Quarterfinal - Isaiah Martinez (Illinois) 31-1 won by decision over Chandler Rogers (Oklahoma State) 25-8 (Dec 10-5)
- Cons. Round 4 - Chandler Rogers (Oklahoma State) 25-8 won by decision over Bryce Steiert (Northern Iowa) 22-6 (Dec 10-4)
- Cons. Round 5 - Chandler Rogers (Oklahoma State) 25-8 won by decision over Chad Walsh (Rider) 33-4 (Dec 12-11)
- Cons. Semi - Logan Massa (Michigan) 32-3 won by decision over Chandler Rogers (Oklahoma State) 25-8 (Dec 10-4)
- 5th Place Match - Chandler Rogers (Oklahoma State) 25-8 won by decision over Daniel Lewis (Missouri) 28-6 (Dec 9-6)
2016:
157
Joseph Smith (35-5) placed 7th and scored 6.5 team points.
- Champ. Round 1 - Joseph Smith (Oklahoma St.) 35-5 won in sudden victory - 1 over Jake Ryan (Ohio St.) 17-7 (SV-1 11-9)
- Champ. Round 2 - Joseph Smith (Oklahoma St.) 35-5 won by decision over Bryce Steiert (Northern Iowa) 24-11 (Dec 6-2)
- Quarterfinal - Jason Nolf (Penn State) 33-2 won by major decision over Joseph Smith (Oklahoma St.) 35-5 (MD 11-3)
- Cons. Round 4 - Joseph Smith (Oklahoma St.) 35-5 won by decision over Dylan Cottrell (West Virginia) 33-11 (Dec 5-3)
- Cons. Round 5 - Dylan Palacio (Cornell) 19-3 won by fall over Joseph Smith (Oklahoma St.) 35-5 (Fall 4:38)
- 7th Place Match - Joseph Smith (Oklahoma St.) 35-5 won by decision over Thomas Gantt (NC State) 28-3 (Dec 6-3)
Chandler Rogers (29-9) place is unknown and scored 5.0 team points.
- Champ. Round 1 - Chandler Rogers (Oklahoma St.) 29-9 won by major decision over Rustin Barrick (Bucknell) 27-12 (MD 10-2)
- Champ. Round 2 - Chandler Rogers (Oklahoma St.) 29-9 won by fall over Casey Kent (Pennsylvania) 32-9 (Fall 7:00)
- Quarterfinal - Bo Nickal (Penn State) 33-2 won by major decision over Chandler Rogers (Oklahoma St.) 29-9 (MD 15-4)
- Cons. Round 4 - Alex Meyer (Iowa) 27-7 won by decision over Chandler Rogers (Oklahoma St.) 29-9 (Dec 7-2)
FWIW, according to those #s, Joe averages 10 points scored at nationals & Chandler averages 8.5 points scored.
Maybe I'm a naive homer but I'm just not worried about the weight. I don't think John would even allow a wrestle off unless they were 100% confident weight wasn't an issue for Joe. In John's comments yesterday he basically said Joe has been at weight for about a month.
Joe has lost his last 3 matches against tough competition. Didn't show much spunk in the 3rd period of any of them. Some people speculated that it was because of the weight cut. Now we're saying he's been down to weight for over a month, and his weight hasn't been, and won't be an issue. Not convinced.
When Chandler wrestled in 2016 he was at 174 getting outhorsed because of that Ringer guy at 165.
When Chandler wrestled in 2016 he was at 174 getting outhorsed because of that Ringer guy at 165.
Joe either comes out and performs or he doesn’t. John made the best decision he thought was in the interest of the team. You old couch potato coaches need to shut it. We can remember wanting G over Kaid at the beginning of the year because the thought process was he was beating him in the room. Now we have the proof joe is beating chandler. Yeah It sucks but hopefully the best chandler is one we haven’t seen yet.
Just to be clear we aren’t saying Joe has been down to weight over a month, John Smith said it. Maybe he is lying. I just passed a long what he said yesterday.
Hopefully the best Chandler is the one we haven't seen yet? It would be REALLY impressive if we saw more Chandler at OKST after a RSSR year...awesome input.
I think the point is everyone wishes Chandler well for his future - that the best things lie ahead for him and his family.
This was a tough situation for all involved. I personally would have liked to see Chandler win the wrestle-off. And I understand why some still want him in the lineup even though he didn't.
I also realize, based on previous Boo & Kaid threads, that sometimes posters may be close friends with a wrestler, may even be family.
This was a tough situation for all involved. I personally would have liked to see Chandler win the wrestle-off. And I understand why some still want him in the lineup even though he didn't.
I also realize, based on previous Boo & Kaid threads, that sometimes posters may be close friends with a wrestler, may even be family.
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no. once the official entries are done at the conference tournament, there is no substitution. If Joseph got hurt tonight at practice, think Chandler could be substituted. But once official entries are done tomorrow, it is over.
