Let me ponder awhile before I give this a reply. But in the meantime I would like to ask you what Israel would have to do differently from what it *is* doing for you to call it genocide?
Jimmy Dore Has A Change Of Mind
- Thread starter Ponca Dan
- Start date
That's a tough to answer but I will give it a shot.
Israel would have to widen the war to the west Bank, state that their goal is the destruction of the Palestinians and not Hamas, and you would see executions of captives. These would be some indicators that might change the equation. Although an expansion into the West Bank by itself would not be enough. It is just one possible sign. There would be other signs as well. So far you have not presented me with any credible evidence of genocide. You have provided me evidence of war. Again all Hamas has to do to end the war is surrender unconditionally. If Israel did not accept that may be another sign of genocide. Key word may.
In your opinion to whom does the land in Gaza and the West Bank legally belong?
To be honest it is one of the questions that needs to be resolved once and for all, but the answer to that question has not been fully decided yet.
What do you call Israel’s *intentional* slaughter of the Palestinians in Gaza, the *intentional* utter destruction of whole city blocks comprised of homes/apartments, small businesses, schools etc. intentionally and knowingly killing people unrelated to the enemy beyond being of the same ethnicity, herding that ethnicity into what they promised were safe spaces that would not be bombed and then bombing them, the public call by public officials to turn Gaza into another Auschwitz, the official proclamation that the intention is to drive those Palestinians they don’t murder out of the land, calling it a “voluntary immigration,” bribing countries in Africa to take them in, publicly saying the West Bank is next, (and there is much much more, too much for me to remember)? It’s not genocide, or even genocide-light I gather. It’s all just unfortunate collateral damage and it’s ALL Hamas’s fault?
Political entities almost always act on what they regard as “predictable” calculations. If we do this they’ll do that. For the life of me I can’t fathom what were Hamas’s calculations going into Oct 7. But Israel’s calculations are transparent: the decimation of the Palestinian people by any barbaric cruelty necessary to achieve the decimation. They have been saying it since Israel was founded, actually even years before its official (read that: western imposed) founding. What was Hamas thinking? Their actions probably saved Netanyahu from going to prison for corruption and united its citizens into a genocidal/racist fury that did not openly exist before. What a miscalculation they made! And the people of Gaza are having to pay the price.
I guess that depends on whether you believe wars decide borders, like they have throughout history.
The use of the word intentional doesn't make your statement any more reliable. Israel is waging war, and citizens who get between the combatants are not going to fare well. I do not for one second believe Israel is intentionally targeting citizens. Hamas is hiding behind them. Every time you make that statement to me it shows a lack of understanding of how war works.
If Hamas believed that Israel would retaliate with genocidal ferocity, then why give Israel the excuse to do it? I don't think Hamas leadership expected their fighters to do what they did, but the calculation was to get Israel into a handcuffed conflict. They have done it before and gotten away with it multiple times. They didn't get what they wanted, instead, they got something more. But if you play this game long enough then those types of things will happen. Now they are dealing with something they can not and will not be able to counter with publicity.
History is not on the Palestinian side when it comes to picking fights with the biggest guy on the block. If they think they are going to be David they certainly did not do a good job of getting God's help to take down Goliath on Oct 7th. History tells me the Goliaths of the world win 99 times out of 100.
I was thinking last night: the battle cry we hear from Israelis as this war rages on in their favor, something we have all seen them say over and over: "Never Again," a reference to the Holocaust and their determination to never be victims of attempts at their extermination a second time. But I think that as a battle cry it falls short. What they should be saying is: "Never Again! Unless We Do It!"
No doubt about that, Israel is determined to fulfill their Zionist intention to drive the Palestinians out of their ancestral lands at all cost, and Hamas gave them the perfect opportunity to do precisely that. And with the backing of the USA they will succeed. I guess what I don't understand is your casual indifference to the brutality of Israel, telling yourself it's just what war is, while being infuriated with Hamas for engaging in the same war tactics as Israel, as if "what war is" doesn't apply to them.
You should add the Palestinian battle cry.
For context.
Maybe make a joke translation too.
If as you accuse, the Israelis are committing genocide, they suck at it. Population numbers in Gaza have gone up each and every year. Forgive me for applying commons sense here but if they were committing genocide wouldn't those population numbers be going down?
Despite the propaganda you consume daily on the subject, the Israelis are not purposely targeting civilians, they are targeting terrorist that hide themselves among civilians who overwhelming support what Hamas did on October 7th. You don't seem to be able to wrap your head around the fact those supposed peaceful Palestinians you champion for, fully support the brutal rape, torture and murder of innocent Jewish people.
As you have admitted you think because Israel is the more powerful of the two Israel should absorb any and all violence from the Palestinians and do nothing but play defense against it, hoping a group of people that fully believe they should kill every Jew on the planet will finally come around to the thinking Jewish people have a right to live in a couple of generations. SMFH
You're simply impossible to converse with. If I say the sky is blue you tell yourself I said the sky is green and no amount of denial or evidence I produce you stubbornly stick with your belief I said the sky is green. Then you accuse me of absorbing propaganda while repeating verbatim the things the Israeli propanda machine has fed the mainstream media who repeat it without questioning it. I honestly don't know if it's because you are that stupid or you think if you repeat lies and disparagements often enough they will become truth. I simply can't continue this any longer. You and the others on this board like you have manged to drive away every person with an opposing viewpoint from your echo chamber. I swore I wouldn't do it, that I'd stick it out in case someone logs on that wants to hear from all sides, but I simply can't tolerate one more minute of the blind obtuseness. I left this board for a few weeks a little while ago, but decided to return and not let you run me off. I thought I was strong enough to ignore the hyperpartisan stupidity from you and those like you, but I'm not.
Hamas intentionally targets civilians on Oct 7th, raping, murdering, and cutting the heads off babies. Israel is targeting Hams with collateral damage. I know you have trouble seeing a difference as death is death to you. So call me old fashioned, but surprisingly there are some warfare rules that the West follows. The Geneva Conventions and the UCMJ can be referenced for these rules. The West has been fighting cultures that do not play by those rules. So do I make a distinction, yes. I do not see all killing as equal. I think this is one of the disconnects puzzling us both. I will say, that most Westerners will agree with me. Most Easterners will take your stance. Being that you are Western your take is perplexing to me, but I did say most not all.
When you say Israel is guilty committing genocide you are promoting propaganda. If Israel truly wanted to commit genocide why would they warn civilians to leave an area they were about to target. Why would they advise Palestinians to flee into safe zones? Why would they allow humanitarian aid to enter Gaza? Why would they do their best to avoid civilian casualties if they wanted to commit genocide? Promoting the Hamas line like you do is pure propaganda and you know it.
If you said Israel is not doing a good enough job protecting civilians I could accept that even though it's impossible to protect the civilians considering the battlefield, the fact Hamas imbeds itself within the civilians and will not allow many of them to leave.
You don't seem to give any thought to the fact the Palestinians started this war with their brutality on October 7th. You seem to discount the attack, try to promote the story Israel deserved it and completely ignore the Palestinians want the Israelis wiped off the map.
IMO there is no way for the Israelis and the Palestinians to live in peace, they hate each other.
Dan to be non partisan. You, yourself have have to be non partisan. You are not, you think you see both sides. In my opinion you are not seeing both sides. My dad always said in an argument. It’s he said she, said and the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
I find it highly interesting that no one in the Middle East allows them into their countries. They've been kicked out of every country they have ever tried to live in.
