Jimmy Dore Has A Change Of Mind
- Thread starter Ponca Dan
- Start date
You mean to tell me bad things happen in war? Who knew.
1 June
A 2-year-old Palestinian child and his father were seriously wounded after being shot by Israeli forces. The incident occurred while the two were leaving their home in Nabi Saleh. Israeli soldiers claimed they opened fire in pursuit of gunmen who had previously attacked the nearby settlement of Neve Tzuf (Halamish). The boy was airlifted to an Israeli hospital but succumbed to his wounds on 5 June. The military stated that it regretted harm to "non-combatants" and that the incident was under investigation.[434][435][436][437] Subsequently, the IDF said a soldier would not be disciplined as he mistakenly believed he was fired at by the Palestinians although communication deficiencies and incorrect decisions were cited.[438][439]
carry on
I've been thinking long and hard about the Gaza situation. Is it possible we can deport Biden? Send the increpit fool to run Gaza?
No sh!t, Sherlock. And pointing them out doesn’t make one an antisemite.
That’s just chickensh!t nonsense.
carry on
So, yer saying terrorists ain't "chicken shit"? Keep going. You and Dan dance much? 🤣
Last edited:
So who’s keeping people “locked up” in Gaza? Egypt? Israel? The Mediterranean? Jesus Christ, Gaza Dan. At least keep track of your own bullshit.
Yeah, but now I’M asking, so go ahead and answer. Or you could do a Dodge Allen.
HamasDan is sad that Hamas' #2 leader was taken out in Beirut today.
And who's the chucklehead that claimed Israel wasn't hunting down the palestinian terrorists? Took down #2? Was a good day imo. I think while the Israelis are at it, why not wipe out Iran? Yemen and Somalia are small potatoes but would be wonderful collateral damage.
This response is specifically for Dan. If you don't want to read a long response you are forewarned. No complaints about its length if you are not Dan.
Well, I will disagree the US does what Hamas did. I'm pretty sure I don't remember targeting a concert and raping/murdering them. I'm pretty sure I don't remember calling my parents and telling them how I killed Iraqi, and Afghan citizens, and even having my mother say how proud she was of my actions. I do recall classes on Geneva conventions training, and ROE and that these policies would be strictly enforced. So, the two things in that aspect do not match.
I will give you that the US backed Ukraine in the war and that it was the US that pushed for the war to happen. There is a but... There has to be a majority of responsibility heaped on Russia and Ukraine. They could have, and should have said no to the war, on both sides. Will there be atrocities committed in war? Yes, that is one of the functions of what war is, the use of atrocities to change a political matter. The attack by Hamas doesn't register here, the closest I can get to what their attack mounted to is Pearl Harbor, and there is a large atrocity portion left out of that surprise attack, so even then it still doesn't reach the level of depravity of Hamas, and we as a nation were pissed about Pearl Harbor, I can't Imagine how the Israeli's feel about this last attack.
The sanctions in Iraq are not the fault of the US, it was the fault of the Iraqi leader not complying with UN inspections for weapons of mass destruction. Let's not forget the reason why we were looking for those weapons is because Sadam used gas to kill Kurds in the North and Shiites in the South that backed the US in the first Gulf war. I'm sure the 200-300 thousand of them included children, as well, and they were not hungry they died coughing up blood, and or having their entire nervous system go tense until their heart exploded. So, the premise that we put sanctions on Iraqi and people died is not on the US, it's the fault of Sadam Hussein. The US didn't just decide to put sanctions against Iraq, there was pretext, and you make it sound like the US just decided to do it because we are evil. FYI, I'm not even a fan miss Albright, she has some serious issues herself.
So why am I still here? Because we didn't do what Hamas did. I have some major issues with US foreign policy over the course of the last 30 years, and I myself participated in many of those policy decisions, and I can tell you my conscious is clear. Those who I participated with for the most part is also in the clear. I can point to some instances where mistakes were made in war, but I nor my unit made those mistakes and when those mistakes occurred there were repercussions to the ones who made them. This is a huge difference between the two entities. At no time was ever participating in a conflict in which the US was the aggressor. It was always in response to the actions of the country involved in the conflict, and yes, that even includes Iraq. And the last reason I am still here, is because I still believe in the US, we can fix what we have got wrong, and after that we will do some more things wrong and fix those as well. If I ever feal as if we can't find our own faults and fix them, I'm out, but I'm long on the US even if for now I don't agree with what we are doing.
So, no Dan, I am not sympathetic to Hamas, and I don't think the comparison you made is even remotely close.
Now let me tackle the last part, which is the part of your statement I found to be the most thoughtful and thought provoking. Had I been born in Gazah and not America my world experience would be completely different, and I agree with you that as the type of person I am, I would have looked for ways to fight back against the authority those around me told me were the bad guys. You see I would have been taught differently and told the truth from their own perspective. However, I didn't grow up in Gazah, and instead my world experience is different, and based on that world experience, I can say without a doubt, Hamas is evil. I see the world from a much different frame of truth. The biggest difference between myself and Hamas is, I don't hate my enemy, but instead respect them, and understand that when I did my job correctly there would be husbands, and brothers, that didn't come home that night, and that I can live with as they would have done the same to me given the chance. That my experience with war taught me that sometimes war is necessary, but to only use it as a tool when all other options have been exhausted, as there will be people that will end their lives to early on both sides. Never start a war but finish it with the most amount of violence possible, so those in involved never want to do it again.
And yes, I do understand you are paying a compliment. I hope you understand that my verbose response back is also a compliment to you. We can disagree, but we can also find common ground on other things.
Thank you for an honest and thoughtful reply. Obviously we disagree on the morality of our government’s actions around the world, and will probably never reach rapprochement on that. And clearly we are about as far apart as possible on the Israeli response to Oct 7. I do hope you understand that we are not apart in the least when it comes to our opinions of Hamas, because that seems to be the stumbling block between me and virtually every other Israeli sympathizer who has commented on this thread. They simply cannot fathom that someone could find the savage brutality by Hamas to be repulsive could also be repulsed by the same degree of brutality from Israel. If you are in that category I will be deeply disappointed. Your reply is very long and deserves a far more thorough response than I have the energy to generate tonight. And tomorrow is going to be a very long and hard day at work, so I don’t know if I can get to it then either. But this is the type of conversation I hunger for, so I will do my best to continue it as soon as I can.
A quick note before I head off to work this morning. As regards your comment about the US-enforced sanctions on Iraq that left half a million children dead, all I can say is you pulled what I would call an “Israeli,” finding a spin in which you absolve the sinner of the sin and try to pin responsibility for the sin on the victim. Here’s how it goes: the far more powerful entity arrogantly assumes because of its excess power it gets to make all the rules and can order the weaker entity what it has to do or face the consequences. When the weaker entity defies the orders the stronger entity brings the hammer, in this case unflinchingly murdering 500,000 children in one of the most gruesome dragged out way. Have you ever been thirsty, I mean really thirsty and said “I’m dying of thirst,” so cotton-mouthed you don’t know if you can go on, so you find the nearest water and guzzle it down? Imagine if there was no water and that thirst drags on for days until you succumb. That’s what half a million *children* experienced at the hands of our government, which was acting in our name. And when it gets criticized for what it did it shrugs its shoulders, palms upright, and acts astonished that anyone would blame them for what they did. “Who? Me? I’m not the guilty party here, I’m the victim, don’t you see? I told them what would happen if they defied my power - I never wanted to be forced to use it - but they defied my orders anyway, so what happened is their fault, not mine.” The classic justification used by psychotic murderers perfected by our government agents they have learned from watching Israel use it every time they employ abuse of others. It is morally contemptible and should never be accepted as valid.
Did you ever stop to think the report you formed your opinion on was propaganda? A survey done by an idealistic organization like UNICEF and Saddam Hussein's government showing 500K children died as a result of sanctions is what you base your opinion on?
Iraqi government misreported child mortality, LSE research finds
Find out why reports of Iraq
www.lse.ac.uk
No, I base this opinion off the interview between Leslie Stahl and Madeline Albright where Ms. Albright basically confirmed the death count and asserted killing that many children was worth it in order for the US to achieve its geopolitical goals.Did you ever stop to think the report you formed your opinion on was propaganda? A survey done by an idealistic organization like UNICEF and Saddam Hussein's government showing 500K children died as a result of sanctions is what you base your opinion on?
Iraqi government misreported child mortality, LSE research finds
Find out why reports of Iraq
So now sanctions are evil in addition to actual military action? I guess we should just send out strongly worded letters from now on. Or maybe give the bad guys “a good talking to”. (Throwing pennies at Gaza Dan)
Again based on reports that we now know were and are highly suspect to the point of being bullshit. While you may think Albright's comment was horrendous, she didn't run away from the criticism, she embraced it. Something we don't see from very many politicians in today's world.
As usual you criticize any action. You criticize military action, you criticize sanctions all while offering no effective alternative. Saddam invaded a sovereign country (Kuwait) requiring an international military coalition to kick his ass out. How many innocent Kuwaitis died all because a tyrant was out of money and needed Kuwait's oil fields? Were you against any of that and if so how should we have handled it? Furthermore after Desert Storm the international coalition placed restrictions on Saddam which he promptly and steadfastly ignored. I guess in your mind there was nothing we should have done and just allowed Saddam to continue his reign of terror on his people and the Middle East.
$35,000 in rewards offered in fatal shooting of imam outside New Jersey mosque
An imam was shot outside a mosque in Newark, New Jersey, on Wednesday morning.
carry on
That a boy, making assumption before the facts are out is your specialty.$35,000 in rewards offered in fatal shooting of imam outside New Jersey mosque
An imam was shot outside a mosque in Newark, New Jersey, on Wednesday morning.abcnews.go.com
carry on
Yeah, assuming motives in a recent significant uptick in anti-Muslim violence in America. Silly me.
carry on
Weird.
Where hasn’t there been an uptick in violence?
Which group isn’t experiencing an uptick in violence?
How do they get you to pretend to care about this crap?
Cult member going to cult.
How do they get you to be so indifferent to violence against good people?
Dwayne Hill, 64, said he had lived near the mosque his entire life and that those who worship there had always been good neighbors.
“The mosque people are no problem. They keep to themselves and do what they believe in,” he said. “They’ve been feeding and clothing the neighborhood for years.”
carry on
Explain what you think you’ve proven other than my point about you being a lap dog.
You dumbfvcks are as dug in as flat-earthers with your stance. No amount of empirical evidence would convince you of anything lol.
CuLt
carry on
First, I don't beleive your 500,000 children died of thirst. Not sure where you picking that number up from. Just thought you might want to clarify. The number you are using is just not believable and does not match what I know of the region before and after the war.
Funny I was going to say that you absolved the sinner with spin to fit your narritive. The US enforced a UN sanctioned no fly zone in Iraq since the first gulf War. Why the no fly zones? Because Sadam was using his Air Force to drop gas on his people in the South and the Kurds in the North. The US did not force him to make that move. The UN at the time also told Iraq to destroy thier chemical weapons. Sadam agreed to do so.. That is why they sent UN inspection teams into Iraq to confirm that he was doing just that. The problem was the inspectors where being mislead all along the way. Sadam was not forced to act this way by the US. He instead defied the inspection team access to confirm thier chemical weapons were destroyed. This will be the catalyst of everything to come after. I can tell you the Iraqi army was shooting at coalition aircraft every chance they got. They were hostile from the beginning right up until we Invaded to remove Sadam. We didn't need WMD to justify taking Sadam out of power, he did a pretty good job of creating reasons for the coalition to want to get rid of him himself. The sanctions were another byproduct of his uncooperative nature. FYI, he didn't care about a few dead children outside of the exploitation narritive he could use with their death. Sadam never missed an opportunity to try and say see what you have done after he provoked a response. Hamas does the same thing, I have seen that play out first-hand in Iraq and I know exploitation when I see it.
Has our government exploited situations. I believe they have and will again. Russia did not blow up thier own pipeline. But to say the US is repsonsible for the deaths of people Iraq because of sanctions is the definition of absolving the sinner to place blame on the US.
Where the US is guilty In Iraq is allowing that mad man to remain in power in the first place. The CIA can also take credit for messing up a lot things in that region as well. None of what they did involved responsibility for for deaths of your children.
You speak of power as if the US weilding its power is a bad thing. The Kuwaiti people may tell you otherwise. The nature of the world since the dawn of civilization is one of bigger powers pushing around smaller powers. From history I can say confidently that the US has weilded thier immense power more sparingly than any other country in history. We invaded Iraq and gave it back. We invaded Afghanistan and gave it back. What other power has ever done anything remotely like that? I can't think of any. But the more powerful are going to lord over the less powerful by nature. Ask yourself, would you as say a citizen of Egypt want the US to weild thier power over your country or China because that choice is real and the differences in how each will approach that power will have two different outcomes.
I get the 500,000 figure directly from the interview Leslie Stahl had with Madeline Albright on *60 Minutes* in which she brought up the report and specifically put the number at half a million. The Secretary of State didn’t flinch, didn’t bat an eye, without pause said that the death toll of those children was worth it. One would think Ms. Albright should be the most knowledgable person in the world what the true number was, yet she did not spend one second disputing the 500,000 figure.
I confess I have never been anywhere in the Middle East; you apparently have. So I will bow to your superior knowledge on the region, so for the sake of argument let’s say the 500,000 figure is completely bogus. Let’s say it is off by a factor of ten and it was really 50,000 children. Hell, let’s say it’s off by a hundredfold and the real number is 5,000. Are you good with the US being directly responsible for the slow torturous murder via starvation, dehydration and dysentery of 5,000 children in order for it to achieve its geopolitical goals? I’m not.
You are twisting things in order to win an argument, please don’t do that. Nothing I have ever written - or even thought to myself - tries to absolve Sadam and his government for its brutal treatment people. He is a sinner just like Madeline Albright, and I personally hope they both are burning in hell as we speak. Sadam was not the victim, the children our sanctions murdered in order to prove to him we have a bigger dick than him are. That’s been my point from the beginning.
There’s a great deal more I want to say, but for now I need to get ready for work. I’ll write more later today.
Last edited:
Did you ever think what would have happened if the US hadn't done anything to reign in that mad man and his sons?
Yes, I’ve thought about it many times. I think of the irony that the US killed tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of Iraqis to keep him from killing Iraqis.
I guess in your mind as long as the US is not the one killing people then it's Ok. SMFH.
I'm not twisting things to win an argument. I am pointing out the fact that it was not the US projecting power but instead our response was to Iraq projecting power in a much more deadly way. Iraq after that failed to take care of its own citizenry. The child deaths are not on the US, they are on the sinner, which in this case was Iraq or specifically Sadam and those who supported him.
Look I'm not huge sanctions fan. I don't think they work. If you are willing to use sanctions then you should be willing to just take out the leadership of the country. After all its more humanitarian than leaving a mad man in power.
No
No, I don’t think killing is okay. In particular I don’t think my government killing innocent strangers in my name is okay.
Nonsense, of course we were projecting power. As Tigger would say “that’s what we do best!” That’s our preferred method: interfere in a situation, distribute orders and crush anyone who defies them, killing as many innocent people as necessary (as some of our pro-Israeli companions put it) until we get our way, or until we get slapped around ourselves and bail out, declaring “we won” as we leave with our tail between our legs. The child deaths are *absolutely* on us, they died expressly because of our actions. You’re pulling what I call an “Israeli,” insisting it’s Sadam’s fault we killed people so we’re really the victim, look what he made us do!
So you would be willing to let Sadam drop WMD on its own citizenry, killing children I might add, just to stay out of his business.
Sorry, got interupted by work. Don't you hate it when that happens? What I am saying is one makes a huge moral blunder when he accepts the perverted logic that the way to prevent Sadam from killing his own people with WMD (Which it turned out he didn't have anyway. Surprise! We were lied to by our government. Who'da thunk it?) by killing them with our own WMD. I remember a scene from the old tv show, MASH, where an American bomber pilot is upset to see a small girl being operated on after bombs were dropped on her village, and he insisted they tell him who dropped the bombs, he needed to know who did it. They told him they didn't know who bombed her, our side or theirs, why does he ask? He said it mattered, it really mattered that he know who dropped the bombs. And the Colonel replied: "Not to her."
Last edited:
Saddam intentionally gassed the Kurds killing thousands in a most horrific death. At no time did the US intentionally target or kill thousands with a WMD or other means.
Oh, really? Shock and Awe was targeted to Sadam and his minions only? The sanctions were targeted to Sadam and his minions only? Those dead children were part of Sadam's forces? Were their deaths quick and humane? I know in your head this means I support Sadam, but you'd be wrong once again.
