No, thank you. You never disappoint.
Other leftists really stepped up their game in the last 6 months and I was wondering when you would go fully off the rails with them.
FL Gov. Ron DeSantis Signs Civics Bill Requiring Students to Learn Evils of ‘Communism, Totalitarian Ideologies’
- Thread starter windriverrange
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Other leftists really stepped up their game in the last 6 months and I was wondering when you would go fully off the rails with them.
Just an example how effective D.A.R.E. to keep kids of Communism will be.
Your either a very deep thinker above my comprehension of just full of shit.....I'm leaning towards the later.
Why bother making an normative judgement and equating the. Just show the facts and let the kids make the normative judgements.
No problem there as long as the facts are actually laid out fairly and not one sided...unfortunately many teachers especially at university levels are full of crap and would never be able to do that.
And the west let the Nazis take over Czechoslovakia and Austria and remilitarize the Ruhr and supplied financing and the planes Hitler bombed Spanish Republicans with. What's your point?
The West played the absolute villain in Czechoslovakia, Austria and Poland. Won't get an argument from me on that.
Interesting that you mention The Condor Legion's activities in Spain but leave off the fact that the godless stinkin communist sent troops, planes, artillery and armor to support The Republicans. Whets your point?
Yeah history is a series of causes and effects.
Interesting you shrug off the instrument(s) that led dorectly to the Nazi's....something that could have been avoided, but then truncate the argument that the dam communist were already on their way to being a scourge.
Show your work.
Normally this is how these work...refute my statement with something other than the smug professor type reply that I'm the student who has to prove my point, while your the above it all professor that is my overlord. Why don't you throw some facts out, source them and then we have a starting point.
Every place that goes from advanced industrial society with a tradition of liberal democracy to socialism has been successful (Norway).
Well then buckoo move there and quit bugging Americans. Norway a country of ~5.330 million people over ~148,729 sq miles (about the size of Montana) has a marginal tax rate of 22%, 25% sales tax, pension tax of between 16.7%-6% and a new car tax of 50% seems like a fun place to live if you don't care working for less. Again, comparing to the US to Norway on any level is pretty dumb though. Tell you what comrade...if your willing to move I'll gladly pay the first $500 American on your plane ticket.
Maybe learn a little bit more about what socialism is.
So smartass, why don't you explain to me "what socialism" is in your view. Geez, again with the "we're all dumber than the professor" comment.
A ruling class that lives high on the hog? Only in communism.
Bullshit!
Show your work.
Again with the smug professor answer.....how about you give me a starting point, then we can continue from there. Some historians say Stalin and his regime antics killed at least 20mm and have seen a 43MM tally spoken about, but the fact is through shoddy or incomplete records the number is most certainly higher but will never been know. While the Nazi's kept impeccable records the estimated death toll from Nazisum was a tad south of 17MM.
Add it up.
Again the smug, I'm too busy to be bothered so I'll just throw shortly worded darts and you do the work.
Rank propaganda. There is no evidence that the Red Army failed to cross the Vistula for political rather than operational reasons. Who killed those civilians by the way?
Read Noram Davies "Rising 44 The Battle for Warsaw" and get back to me. Was published in 2003 and got amazing reviews from papers like "The New York Review of Books," The Boston Globe," "The New York Times Book Review," "The Washington Post," and "The Financial Times."
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Show your work. You just stated western propaganda about the Warsaw uprising as fact, and I am supposed to take your word for the body count?
Between Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and so on the communist have killed over ~110 MM people (The Black Book of Communism - great read, but you would take the time)
What is western propaganda about The Warsaw Uprising....please show your work!
And if it weren't for the Soviets killing or capturing 9.6 million Axis soldiers D-day might have ended up differently.
Extremely doubtful....I'll give you that the Germans concentrated vastly more resources on the Eastern Front, that was because it was the longest continuous front in military history. Over 1/4 of all German losses occurred in 1945 ""Germany 1945" by Richard Bessel & "The End; The Defiance and Destruction of Hitler's German, 1944-1945" by Ian Kershaw) which kind of kills off your theory that without the stinking communist killing 9.8 million german soldiers its possible D-Day would have failed....you know since D-day was on June ^, 1944.
Overwhelming firepower, very short interior lines of communication and the lack of a coordinated effort by the Germans for 2-3 days doomed them.
The Germans had the stinking communist in the bag but for pealing off armoured division from Army Group Center to Army Group North (for Leningrad) and to Army Group South (run at the oil fields in Baku) and this had more to do with Germany's defeat then anything the communist generals or soldiers did.
The allies faced some of the better divisions left in The Wehrmacht on D-Day; 352 Infantry Division, 1st & 2nd SS Panzer, 17th SS Panzergrenadier, Panzer Lehr, 3rd & 5th Fallschirm-Jäger-Division, 12th SS Hitlerjugend, 21st Panzer Division and the 346th & 711th Infantry Division.
We can measure it bay Nazis killed if you prefer.
I'm arguing forced deaths through monumentally stupid tactics and you want to measure by how many germans they killed. Guess what, those tactics were so injurious to the communist pool of manpower they were basically outlawed after the German retreat of ~160 km's during the communist winter offensive of 1941/1942. Really how great a strategy is it when your kill ratio is 20:1 or 30:1?
And yet they prevailed.
I think your comments, smugness and general disdain for capitalistic America belies that within your own mind you feel superior to most people. When I look back through your responses you often don't really debate anyone, instead you act like its beneath you to mix it up with us redneck heathens here and you retort to prolifically short answers that waste people's time by continuing to put the burden of proof on "us" versus you the overly intelligent professor. We're your students to prove to you that we're right and your here to "tolerate" us and give inane answers with absolutely nothing of substance.
That you can't/won't acknowledge the Western Powers contribution to the stinking communist war effort via Lend Lease is laughable and shows your lack of historical perspective. There are a number of authorities that contribute the survival of the godless communist against Hitler to those very gifts. Don't believe me go look it up!
With the exception of the mongols and muslims invading parts of europe the communist have been the most destructive force on planet earth. Their ideology, and I'll include socialism, is ill befit to operate huge swaths of lands, peoples and countries. Socialism would never work in the US, because the government can't possibly manage the means production.
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Think about it very hard.
Who is to judge?
The republicans were the good guys. Thank you godless stinkin communists
What ideology is more responsible for Nazism, than Nazims?
If you are going to assert that Stalin killed more than Hitler you need more evidence than just smugly stating it as fact. Nazis were responsible for 42 million deaths, significantly more than even the most exaggerated figure for Stalin.
I am a true patriot and want whats best for my country. You can move though if Biden gets to be too much for you.
Yet they have a higher per capita Income than the US, better health outcomes, and are surveyed as some of the happiest people in the world. If your utility function is minimizing taxes I have some great places you could move to.
Comparing the US to the USSR or the Peoples Republic of China is equally dumb. But Norway puts the lie to the assertion that Social fails everywhere always and forever.
Google is freely available, If you are going to speak so confidently about socialism maybe have more than jsut a dumb guy who watches the history channel knowledge of it. Socialism isn't just taking all the money and spreading it out equally. Sociallism is the democratic ownership and control of the means of production, it is not incompatible with market prices or rewarding hard work and labor.
Exactly the ruling class lives high on the hog in all forms of government that I can think of.
Which historians? Even If I grant your 20mm number which is at least twice the actual number, Hitler killed more.
Oh so we can just make up the numbers since the record keeping was shoddy? Seems like it wouldn't be hard to demonstrate that a country of 150MM people in 1926 killed 20 to 43MM people.
Is it the impeccable records that give us a range of 4.7MM to 7.4MM Jews killed in the Holocaust? Impeccablly +/- 25%?
Conservative death tolls in Europe during WWII are 37MM.
Hey man you are making the assertions, you back them up.
From Davies "(We know that Stalin did order it to halt, but not what his motives were.)" in direct contradiction to your certitude regarding the pro-democracy Home Army.
Also From Davies "For my part, I was convinced that the Leaders of the Allied Coalition, especially Roosevelt, played a decisive role and made decisive mistakes."
Davies researched the Nazi records from the Uprising and all their reporting was that their operations in other sectors of the Vistula were the reason the Red Army wasn't entering Warsaw.
Again though, who was it killing civilians in this case?
Propaganda. Thoroughly debunked.
The assertion that the Soviet delay in entering Warsaw was a political decision rather than strategic or tactical is propaganda unsupported by evidence.
I'll revise:
And if it weren't for the Soviets killing or capturing 7.4 million Axis soldiers D-day might have ended up differently.
Yeah is there a lack of coordinated effort or a firepower deficit if there is no Eastern Front?
If and buts. Better luck next time Nazis!
No one is arguing it is great strategy. I didn't go to Westpoint. I am arguing that the Red Army stopped Hitler from killing as many people as he would have absent their heroic efforts and sacrifices.
I take the time to debate people are will debate me in good faith. Which at this point is mainly Wyoming, and Ponca Dan. I am sorry if I insist on mere shreds of evidence for your outrageous assertations. If we can make assertations with no evidence then this quickly devolves into yes/no/yes/no/yes/no. To me arguing with someone by making bold assertions with no evidence is the height of smugness.
Must be some substance, took you two whole posts to reply.
Did I not acknowledge that? Nothing in history happens in a vacuum. Most Lend-Lease shipments to the USSR happened after Stalingrad.
Nazism and Imperialism were both far more destructive. See how just asserting things leads us no where?
How much of the destruction that you attribute to Communism is a result of reactionary violent resistance to Communism? How much of the destruction is a result of rapidly industrializing backward countries that were previously held back by imperialists and autocrats?
Who do you think the US government is? Who do you think the manages the means of production now?
Norway isn't a socialist country per actual Norwegians. I'll take their word over random internet guy. But it is entertaining watching you try to convince people of your bullshit.
One interesting characteristic of advocates of socialism is it’s definition is amorphous; socialism is what the advocate says it is at the time he says it. Cuba was socialist until it wasn’t. Same with Venezuela. Pilt’s definition of socialism is the high tax welfare state of Norway, and nothing any of us say is going to budge him off that definition.
I am pretty consistent. For the tenth time I would invite you to compare the percentage of state ownership in Norway and Venezuela for yourself.
Unless you were tortured and executed for the heinous crime of owning land.
I doubt I’d live longer in that shithole. And I doubt I’d be wealthier and happier in your hypothetical socialist shithole. If you’re motivated, there is no way the collective can deliver a better standard of living to you than you’d secure for yourself under capitalism.
I
Indeed. When has any socialist ideology (nazis, commies, etc) NOT claimed to be the “real socialism”?
One thing I will hand Cuba. It’s probably a good source of 1950’s car parts if you have a restoration project.
*Of not ceding your land
Statistically you would. Collective produces a very good standard of living in Norway.
I do want to give you credit for latching into Norway as your example of what socialism looks like. It surprises me how long it has taken socialism’s advocates in America to discover Norway.
Russia was a socialist/communist paradise until the Gulag Archipelago could no longer be swept under the rug.
China was the perfect socialist/communist society until the body count became unspinnable.
Cuba was socialist heaven until the political prisons filled up and its people fled in droves.
Venezuela was perfect socialism until
mass starvation became too public to hide.
All these examples of socialism were examples of the good life until they turned into nightmares. And all this time there was the shining light of socialist Norway being completely ignored by American socialist activists. I wonder why. Could it be that socialists understood Norway isn’t classically socialist until there were no better examples left to point to?
Like I said, I give you props for jumping on the Norway-is-socialist bandwagon before almost everybody else.
You are missing his point. You cede your land and any other possession the Collective decides you must relinquish in order to be equal to everyone else. The Collective produces a great standard of living for all.
So King Harald has to give according to his abilities and receive only according to his needs? That’s some pretty extravagant needs for a wrinkled old man. 🙄
Better question. How would YOUR life be better in a socialist society? Has your PhD. and the rest of your alphabet soup not enabled you to compete in a capitalist society? WTF, Prof?
Dan, it's amazing what socialism can do for an advanced economy when implemented democratically.
There is always the Jacobin option.So King Harald has to give according to his abilities and receive only according to his needs? That’s some pretty extravagant needs for a wrinkled old man. 🙄
I like how he’s moved the goalposts to Norway now after the other Nordic countries didn’t work out for him previously. 🤣
I agree completely that Norwegians live under remarkable circumstances. A country of 5 million +/- people that are 95% the same race and religion in a land the size of a large American state and the resources provided by private oil companies paying tribute for access to North Sea oil deposits is hitting the jackpot. But Norway is not classically socialist, doesn’t even claim to be. Norway is socialist because the socialist advocate @07pilt wants them to be socialist and therefore they are socialist. I happy for you that you finally found a country you could call socialist without worrying the government will imprison or starve it’s people.
A rose by any other name
They are socialist because a large portion of the means of production are owned and controlled democratically.
You definitely live in a happier, healthier, wealthier society than those Cubans, Chinamen, Venezuelans, and former Soviet citizens who were not at the top of the pyramid.
Indeed. In fact, the slaves were the only Americans who had it as bad as the subjects of socialist/marxist/communist governments.
I do always enjoy reading about the evils of Communism and Fascism. Especially since they are both socialist. It's like two children who both broke the tv, and they are pointing at each other.
No of those places had a socialist/marxist/communist government in 1900. wow
No. They didn’t. And the USA in 1900 was far better than any of those shitholes 100 years later. Dude, is it an act, or is your literacy really so lacking?
Oh no life in 1985 USSR 2019 China 2020 Cuba and 2011 Venezuela was way better than life in the US in 1900
Simple as checking GDP per capita, Life expectancy, and Infant mortality.
You forgot about freedom, which is doesn’t exist in collectivist societies. Though I can see how a “nontrepreneur” such as yourself might think otherwise.
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Nope. Just ask the Poles, Czechs, East Germans, Romanians, Bulgarians, Hungarians, etc. etc.
