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FL Gov. Ron DeSantis Signs Civics Bill Requiring Students to Learn Evils of ‘Communism, Totalitarian Ideologies’

Mistaken Dan.
That’s it? That’s all you’ve got? You’re a committed socialist, obviously much more familiar with its nuances than I. Surely you can explain in simple language how socialism offers greater prosperity to a hard worker over an indifferent one.
 
That’s it? That’s all you’ve got? You’re a committed socialist, obviously much more familiar with its nuances than I. Surely you can explain in simple language how socialism offers greater prosperity to a hard worker over an indifferent one.
Explaining socialism to a hard headed (no offense) libertarian on a Saturday night is a little bit of a pearls before swine situation
 
Explaining socialism to a hard headed (no offense) libertarian on a Saturday night is a little bit of a pearls before swine situation
Hard headed libertarian is a close description, but I think “ham fisted libertarian” is closer to the mark.

Be that as it may, consider you’re explaining to @Syskatine how socialism benefits hard workers better than indifferent ones. Leave me out of it. I am sincerely asking the question, not trying to “gotcha” at all. I’m 74 years old and this is the first time I’ve heard that socialism strives to have different outcomes for different workers. I am honestly curious.
 
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Explaining socialism to a hard headed (no offense) libertarian on a Saturday night is a little bit of a pearls before swine situation
Look. We get it. You’re an under achieving, unambitious slacker. The board tells me you have a PhD in Econ. With that on your resume, you could be a principal in the consulting wing of a Big 6 firm, or perhaps the remnants of Arthur Andersen, or a second-tier firm like Grant Thornton (any of those qualify as “not too shabby”). A high level staff position at any major bank or investment firm is also an option. Seriously, Rose State? I can see where socialism might benefit someone like you.
 
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Hard headed libertarian is a close description, but I think “ham fisted libertarian” is closer to the mark.

Be that as it may, consider you’re explaining to @Syskatine how socialism benefits hard workers better than indifferent ones. Leave me out of it. I am sincerely asking the question, not trying to “gotcha” at all. I’m 74 years old and this is the first time I’ve heard that socialism strives to have different outcomes for different workers. I am honestly curious.
Socialism seeks to end the alienation of labor from the fruits of it's labor. Remember socialism isn't 100% taxes and redistribution it's democratic ownership and control of the means of production.
 
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Look. We get it. You’re an under achieving, unambitious slacker. The board tells me you have a PhD in Econ. With that on your resume, you could be a principal in the consulting wing of a Big 6 firm, or perhaps the remnants of Arthur Andersen, or a second-tier firm like Grant Thornton (any of those qualify as “not too shabby”). A high level staff position at any major bank or investment firm is also an option. Seriously, Rose State? I can see where socialism might benefit someone like you.
Lol
 
Socialism seeks to end the alienation of labor from the fruits of it's labor. Remember socialism isn't 100% taxes and redistribution it's democratic ownership and control of the means of production.
Okay, but what does “democratic ownership and control” mean? Take me through how that would work.

Let’s say ABC Tool Company currently has 100 employees working two shifts in the plant with 4 shift leaders and 6 executives in the office (the ones making key decisions about things like production quotas, wages, etc.), and 8 secretaries/clerical help. ABC Tool Company is owned by the Smith family. It was founded in 1886 and has been in continuous operation ever since.

Socialists assume control of the government, the government confiscates the company and establishes socialist ownership and control. How would things be different for the employees, executives included, and what becomes of the Smith family? Please show how the theory of democratic ownership and control would work for ABC Tool Company.
 
Okay, but what does “democratic ownership and control” mean? Take me through how that would work.

Let’s say ABC Tool Company currently has 100 employees working two shifts in the plant with 4 shift leaders and 6 executives in the office (the ones making key decisions about things like production quotas, wages, etc.), and 8 secretaries/clerical help. ABC Tool Company is owned by the Smith family. It was founded in 1886 and has been in continuous operation ever since.

Socialists assume control of the government, the government confiscates the company and establishes socialist ownership and control. How would things be different for the employees, executives included, and what becomes of the Smith family? Please show how the theory of democratic ownership and control would work for ABC Tool Company.
First ABC would be rolled up as part of a larger organization. Some executives would become redundant and be encouraged to take on more productive careers. The remaining management would then report to a board of directors appointed by a democratically elected commission responsible for the whatever sector of the economy ABC operates in. Any surplus created by ABC is now spent on ABC capex, higher wages or redirected to capex elsewhere in the economy which will produce goods the workers will benefit from.
 
First ABC would be rolled up as part of a larger organization. Some executives would become redundant and be encouraged to take on more productive careers. The remaining management would then report to a board of directors appointed by a democratically elected commission responsible for the whatever sector of the economy ABC operates in. Any surplus created by ABC is now spent on ABC capex, higher wages or redirected to capex elsewhere in the economy which will produce goods the workers will benefit from.
Sounds like someone who has spent too much time in the theoretical world and zero time in the real world.
 
First ABC would be rolled up as part of a larger organization. Some executives would become redundant and be encouraged to take on more productive careers. The remaining management would then report to a board of directors appointed by a democratically elected commission responsible for the whatever sector of the economy ABC operates in. Any surplus created by ABC is now spent on ABC capex, higher wages or redirected to capex elsewhere in the economy which will produce goods the workers will benefit from.


I appreciate the reply, but it is mostly mumbo jumbo generic blather (no offense).

What would that “larger organization” be, and why would it be necessary?

What would the “encouragement” for redundant executives consist of? Who would determine which executives are redundant, and who determines what makes some of their existing jobs at ABC unproductive?

Who democratically elects the board of directors to whom the new management would report? Exactly what power does this board hold over ABC’s new management?

Does the board hire and fire the new management? The workers on the factory floor? The clerical help? Can the new management hire or fire the factory workers or clerical help? Do board members get paid more than management? Management more than factory workers? Factory workers more than clerical help?

We all know that earnings and losses are easily manipulated to benefit those who do the manipulation. Who oversees the books to make sure any surplus is properly reported? Who decides where the surplus is spent?

Maybe I’m off base, but it seems to me you have devised a system that would be rife with corruption and would easily turn into an overbearing bureaucracy even worse than we have today. Can you allay my fears?

Finally, you left out the part about the Smith family. What becomes of them?

Edit: Oh, I forgot the primary question! Does an indifferent factory worker earn less than a hard worker? How is that consummated? Do all the new execs make the same amount, or are some of them better compensated than others? What would be the criteria?

No offense, but I can’t help but believe you see yourself as a member of the overseeing board in your scheme. That would be a nice gig, one I am sure you would deserve!
 
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I appreciate the reply, but it is mostly mumbo jumbo generic blather (no offense).

What would that “larger organization” be, and why would it be necessary?

What would the “encouragement” for redundant executives consist of? Who would determine which executives are redundant, and who determines what makes some of their existing jobs at ABC unproductive?

Who democratically elects the board of directors to whom the new management would report? Exactly what power does this board hold over ABC’s new management?

Does the board hire and fire the new management? The workers on the factory floor? The clerical help? Can the new management hire or fire the factory workers or clerical help? Do board members get paid more than management? Management more than factory workers? Factory workers more than clerical help?

We all know that earnings and losses are easily manipulated to benefit those who do the manipulation. Who oversees the books to make sure any surplus is properly reported? Who decides where the surplus is spent?

Maybe I’m off base, but it seems to me you have devised a system that would be rife with corruption and would easily turn into an overbearing bureaucracy even worse than we have today. Can you allay my fears?

Finally, you left out the part about the Smith family. What becomes of them?

Edit: Oh, I forgot the primary question! Does an indifferent factory worker earn less than a hard worker? How is that consummated? Do all the new execs make the same amount, or are some of them better compensated than others? What would be the criteria?

No offense, but I can’t help but believe you see yourself as a member of the overseeing board in your scheme. That would be a nice gig, one I am sure you would deserve!
Great questions, Dan.
 
First ABC would be rolled up as part of a larger organization. Some executives would become redundant and be encouraged to take on more productive careers. The remaining management would then report to a board of directors appointed by a democratically elected commission responsible for the whatever sector of the economy ABC operates in. Any surplus created by ABC is now spent on ABC capex, higher wages or redirected to capex elsewhere in the economy which will produce goods the workers will benefit from.


Another series of questions about life under socialism. I hope you’ll indulge me.

Under socialism do individuals invest in startup companies? If the answer is yes, where do they get the money to invest? And how do they recoup their investment? Are they allowed a return greater than they invested? From the beginning is the startup placed under the umbrella of a larger organization with a board that oversees operations similar to the ABC Tool Company? What role does the inventor with the vision for the startup get to play? How is he compensated? Does the startup have to obtain permission from an agency before it can launch? What happens to members of the agency that gives permission to launch if the startup fails miserably?

I assume you have spent years studying all aspects of socialism, so I’m hoping you can answer these questions in language I can understand. In addition to being quite ugly I’m also not very bright. So I’m hoping you can give fairly detailed answers in an edited version, kind of like Cliff Notes.
 
First ABC would be rolled up as part of a larger organization. Some executives would become redundant and be encouraged to take on more productive careers. The remaining management would then report to a board of directors appointed by a democratically elected commission responsible for the whatever sector of the economy ABC operates in. Any surplus created by ABC is now spent on ABC capex, higher wages or redirected to capex elsewhere in the economy which will produce goods the workers will benefit from.

Bahahahaha good one Comrade 07pilt.....we would have dumb*sses who couldn’t make it in the private sector due to lack of intelligence/talent/drive mandating how businesses operate.
 
I'm well aware how they work. I have ownership in multiple companies across many sectors. How does the government go about getting enough shares of corporations to control them?
There are many ways. The most straight forward is expropriation.
 
Bahahahaha good one Comrade 07pilt.....we would have dumb*sses who couldn’t make it in the private sector due to lack of intelligence/talent/drive mandating how businesses operate.
You may be surprised to learn how corporations are run today.
 
I appreciate the reply, but it is mostly mumbo jumbo generic blather (no offense).

What would that “larger organization” be, and why would it be necessary?
Efficiency.
What would the “encouragement” for redundant executives consist of? Who would determine which executives are redundant, and who determines what makes some of their existing jobs at ABC unproductive?
Same way this happens today when M&A transactions are made, this isn't ground breaking stuff. Encouragement would be via pink slip and job market prospects.
Who democratically elects the board of directors to whom the new management would report? Exactly what power does this board hold over ABC’s new management?
The people of the jurisdiction (national or international depending on how things go) elect the sectoral commission who selects the board of directors. The board of directors would hold the same power over management as a board of directors holds today under modern rules of corporate governance.
Does the board hire and fire the new management?
Yes
The workers on the factory floor? The clerical help? Can the new management hire or fire the factory workers or clerical help?
No, No, Yes.
Do board members get paid more than management?
Depends
Management more than factory workers?
Depends
Factory workers more than clerical help?
Depends
We all know that earnings and losses are easily manipulated to benefit those who do the manipulation. Who oversees the books to make sure any surplus is properly reported? Who decides where the surplus is spent?
books are overseen by management and auditors. Management in consultation with the board determines how it is spent.
Maybe I’m off base, but it seems to me you have devised a system that would be rife with corruption and would easily turn into an overbearing bureaucracy even worse than we have today.
You may be surprised to learn how modern corporations are governed.
Can you allay my fears?
Yes, go look at any proxy statement.
Finally, you left out the part about the Smith family. What becomes of them?
They become workers.
Edit: Oh, I forgot the primary question! Does an indifferent factory worker earn less than a hard worker? How is that consummated? Do all the new execs make the same amount, or are some of them better compensated than others? What would be the criteria?
Depends on management. The same way it is consummated today. Execs have different compensations. Board discretion.
No offense, but I can’t help but believe you see yourself as a member of the overseeing board in your scheme. That would be a nice gig, one I am sure you would deserve!
Dan, it is very hard to become a board member of a consequential corporation in today's world, and it would be even harder after consolidation.
 
Another series of questions about life under socialism. I hope you’ll indulge me.

Under socialism do individuals invest in startup companies? If the answer is yes,
Under pure socialism no. In a mixed economy that leans heavily socialist, yes.
where do they get the money to invest?
In a mixed economy their own labor, state venture fund, pooled worker resources.
And how do they recoup their investment?
In a mixed economy they exit via acquisition.
Are they allowed a return greater than they invested?
In a mixed economy yes.
From the beginning is the startup placed under the umbrella of a larger organization with a board that oversees operations similar to the ABC Tool Company?
Under pure socialism yes
What role does the inventor with the vision for the startup get to play? How is he compensated?
Imagine working at a corporation and inventing something. Basically that. The only difference is there is no surplus that is paid to capital.
Does the startup have to obtain permission from an agency before it can launch? What happens to members of the agency that gives permission to launch if the startup fails miserably?
What happens to management today if they back a failed startup?
I assume you have spent years studying all aspects of socialism, so I’m hoping you can answer these questions in language I can understand.
Dan, I spend far more time studying the rules of the game we are playing rather than the rules of the game I wish we were playing.
 
Under pure socialism no. In a mixed economy that leans heavily socialist, yes.

In a mixed economy their own labor, state venture fund, pooled worker resources.

In a mixed economy they exit via acquisition.

In a mixed economy yes.

Under pure socialism yes

Imagine working at a corporation and inventing something. Basically that. The only difference is there is no surplus that is paid to capital.

What happens to management today if they back a failed startup?

Dan, I spend far more time studying the rules of the game we are playing rather than the rules of the game I wish we were playing.


I want to tell you how much I appreciate it when you give straight answers and aren’t trying to be “cute” with your reply. I just got out of cataract surgery for my second eye, so right now things are looking blurry. I hope to be back close to speed tomorrow, at which time I may pepper you with more questions. I hope you understand I am trying to learn from you as much as possible about your understanding of how socialism would work. That’s not to say I will agree with you as to its efficacy! But I am not trying to set you up for a gotcha!!
 
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Ahhh, yes, the government forcing people to give up property...

Yep, nothing could go wrong there.
@07pilt

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Don't puss out now, pinko. We're just getting started.
 
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Holy shit that's hilarious! Let's get @Syskatine in here to talk about how eager zhe is about surrendering zher business to the "government Collective."
Yeah think how capital intensive a law firm is
 
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