End of season thoughts

[proud2bpokes]

As I find myself doing what I do at the end of every season, I have tried to rationalize all that occurred. Some randoms thoughts and observations.

Daton Fix:
-Overall, an incredible career.
-The only 5x conference champ
-4x NCAA finalist and 5x semi-finalist
-overall winning % just under 95% putting him 13th all-time in OSU history
-outside of the NCAA tournament, a career record of 102-1

Parker Keckeisen:
-One of the more dominant wrestlers I recall recently. Would be my vote for Hodge
-Won every match by bonus except 3
-Now has a career record of 105-5
-Hoping Plott can eliminate the gap, but Parker is favored to be the next 5x conference champ

Late season fade:
-It has been talked about a lot the last several seasons
-Most of this season the team wrestled strong, especially winning close matches
-Heard a comment from John Smith right before the tournament or during the first day saying something like "my guys know how to win close matches"
-Through February 10th (dual record of 13-0), OSU starters had a record of 44-19 (69.8%) in matches with a final score of 3 points or less or settled in SV/OT with a point differential >3
-Beginning with the 2nd ou dual (so it also includes Iowa dual, Big 12s, and NCAAs), the starters record in these matches dropped to 18-24 (42.9%)
-If you remove Fix and Olejnik from the late season stats, the close match W/L drops to 10-21 (32.2%)
-Hopefully, that is just a demonstration of inexperience and the results improve for the 8 returning starters and/or their replacements

Late season fade Part Deux? (NCAA placement v seeding):
-125-two wins below seed
-133-one win below
-141-three below
-149-one above
-157-placed at seed
-165-two wins above
-174-at seed
-184-one above
-197-at seed
-285-one below
-Considering seeding is a result of overall season results, this is a mixed bag. We went into this tournament with higher seeds at most weights due to overall improvements seen throughout the year. Except for Jamison, everyone wrestled reasonably close to their seeds. Spratley was two below but that was an incredibly crazy bracket with only a few cupcakes of the 33 entrants. Olejnik was two above but that only got him slightly above his seed. Before anybody replies, I know that the difference between 5th and 7th is a win in conso semis so technically one win. If he wins conso semis and then loses is the 5th place match, placing 6th, that is still one win above seed. So, from my perspective 5th is two wins above 7th seed.

 

[osudog]

We have to change our style we have to become bonus machines

 

[Cowboy1989]

We have to change our style we have to become bonus machines

Plott was a bonus point machine. I think we have bonus point machines coming up - CC, Sakamoto, Lockett, Merrill - just need elite talent. Fix would have been a bonus point machine at 125.

 

[chasepollard]

We need to start with punching everybody through to the quarters.

125- The only time I was dissatisfied with him was in the blood round. He should’ve AAd and it went just perfect for him to do so.

133- I hurt for the guy. It really felt like the officials tried to screw him the entire weekend.

141- This one hurt us! I really though he had a shot to AA and he mailed in an 0-2 tourney.

149- I felt he should’ve AAd. I was watching Travis and didn’t realize he was Wrestling too. I thought he was going to AA after the Tech fall.

157- Same as above. He can grow into the weight and do pretty well. I like how he switches to the double leg to minimize those unpredictable scrambles.

165- I’m glad he AAd, but he should’ve punched through to the quarters pretty easy. Its matches at times like that where the team score suffers. Still proud for him and grateful for his effort.

174- portal over him.

184- great tourney!

197- I hate it that we have to replace him. But, he may just be a R12 type guy?

285- same as above.

If we can get a roster of guys that go through to the quarters, we can make some noise in the team race!

 

[Mrgrapple]

I will not say that we had a great season but we did have a very good season. 40% of our team were freshmen and we went through a tough schedule with only one loss. Had a good Big XII and qualified all ten for the NCAA. With are young wrestlers getting valuable experience I believe next season will be even better and we will have a great dual season and get a NCAA trophy. Great job by the coaches and wrestlers.

 

[JAY45]

We need to start with punching everybody through to the quarters.

125- The only time I was dissatisfied with him was in the blood round. He should’ve AAd and it went just perfect for him to do so.

133- I hurt for the guy. It really felt like the officials tried to screw him the entire weekend.

141- This one hurt us! I really though he had a shot to AA and he mailed in an 0-2 tourney.

149- I felt he should’ve AAd. I was watching Travis and didn’t realize he was Wrestling too. I thought he was going to AA after the Tech fall.

157- Same as above. He can grow into the weight and do pretty well. I like how he switches to the double leg to minimize those unpredictable scrambles.

165- I’m glad he AAd, but he should’ve punched through to the quarters pretty easy. Its matches at times like that where the team score suffers. Still proud for him and grateful for his effort.

174- portal over him.

184- great tourney!

197- I hate it that we have to replace him. But, he may just be a R12 type guy?

285- same as above.

If we can get a roster of guys that go through to the quarters, we can make some noise in the team race!

Posted this in the Line-Up Thread...

Ordinarily, I'd save this for my annua "Way Too Early Line-Up Prediction" Post...

The added traffic on this site seems like a positive and a sign that OSU Wrestling is still important to great many people.

In the immortal words of Cody Canada, "If I were President":

In order to be in OSU's Starting Line-Up, you must have the ability to:

1. Contend for a Big 12 Championship
2. All-American at minimum. You should be in the Top 8 at your weight class

Times have changed and OSU has been slow to adapt.

You have to appreciate John Smith's Michael Corleone level of loyalty.



That said, it seems the only way to begin to close the gap is to get guys who can go on Day 1. This will lead to some difficult, uncomfortable situations. The bottom line is, others in contention have figured out a way to make it work. Development looks different now. You have to maximize the Portal. OSU should use the Portal liberally for any All-American Candidate who is looking for a better place to compete. Izzak Olejnik is the template.

All that said, here is what it seems to look like as of right now, measuring everyone to the standard listed above (fairly or not).

125: Troy Sprately seems to have all the necessary ingredients to be a Big 12 Champ and AA for the duration of his career. His mistakes were typically mistakes of aggression that should be coachable. He has an appropriate level of nastiness and most importantly the will & determination to succeed. He is able to get in on legs that you need in this new era of the 3-point Takedown. To give you a sense of his ability, he has a Major Decision of the eventual National Champ under his belt. OSU should be fine at this weight for the next 3 years.

Sam Smith & Jayce Mullin are the only other guys on the current Roster to back up. Perhaps Zach Blankenship could make the cut; he's looking pretty thick and still recovering from what looks like shoulder surgery.

133: 1st weight where things start to look interesting. The only returning 133 on the Roster is Reece Witcraft. You've got J.J. McComas & Rin Sakamoto coming in as True Freshmen; which makes this a fascinating situation. Seems like you have to Redshirt Sakamoto with no Folkstyle experience. Unless this guy is just unbelievable from Day 1.

1. Can they compete for a Big 12 Championship?
2. Can they All-American?

I'm Reece Witcraft's biggest fan outside of any relatives. Can he beat Frost from Iowa State? That is the new standard.

What do you do if Nasir Bailey is sitting in the Portal? It seems highly irresponsible for OSU if they don't pursue. Will be an interesting test of how OSU is looking at things and how they plan to manage. Massive shoes to fill here, obviously.

Zach Blankenship & Jim Mullin provide depth.

141: Interesting situation #2; although the answer seems to be on the Roster. Tagen Jamison showed a lot of promise. Carter Young has shown a lot of promise. Cael Hughes is ultra-talented and has to be in the Line-Up. Who can cut and who can bulk? After a year at 141, Young looked smallish. He hasn't been 100% so likely not fair to him...he hasn't been able to beat Jamison or Jordan Williams. Its a good problem to have except for the fact that you might not have a spot for everyone. Someone is going to get left out unless everything goes perfectly in terms of finding the right weight classes. If you could get Hughes or Young to 133, that would help a ton; although that ship seems to have sailed. Could Jamison bulk to 149?

149: Interesting situation #3, although the answer seems to be on the Roster. In a perfect world, you've got "The Guy" in Jordan Williams who answers both Standards Questions. The problem is, as can be seen at 141; how do you fit in other talented athletes? Can Jordan bulk? Obviously you don't do it if that messes him up. So you have, potentially, Williams, Young, and Jamison?

You've got Cutter Sheets here as depth.

157: Interesting situation #4. Everyone (myself included) loves the Nolan Boyd/Preston Weigel types; and it looks like OSU has that kind of athlete in Teague Travis. It also seems like this is a placeholder situation LaDarion Lockett.

1. Can he compete for a Big 12 Championship? Potentially
2. Can he All-American? Hard to tell. He beat Top 10 guys this season. He also looked completely overmatched against Levi Haines.

This is yet another tough situation. Is there anyone that can bulk to 157? Is Teague done bulking? In the pre-portal/NIL era, it seems you let this one continue to play out/blossom. The challenge seems to be, does this allow OSU to compete at the highest level next year? Everyone would like the answer to be yes. This seems to be the perfect test case. What would Penn State and Iowa do here? Would they go into the season with someone like this starting or look to improve? Through different methods, it seems both would be looking for the best possible guy.

I don't know the answer, and it seems increasingly harder to say what the right thing is to do. Fans are demanding championships. Teague has everything you want and are looking for in an OSU wrestler with the possible exception of elite talent.

Other than the younger Manibog, you don't have anyone else on the Roster unless someone bulks.

165: Portal all the way. There is no one else on the Roster. At one point, Brayden Thompson was mentioned as a 165. That ship seems to have sailed. Lee Cotheran stated that Iowa is forcing Patrick Kennedy out. If that is the case; he should be Target #1. Back up Olejnik with another Olejnik. The wrestler from Binghamton has been mentioned as well. There is no other option than the Portal here and it should be an attractive landing spot for the most talented guy out there looking to move.

174: Interesting situation #5. We saw all sides from Brayden Thompson this year it seems. Being a Top 6 P4P Recruit, it feels like it would be a huge bust if he didn't work out somewhere. I like the idea of a Redshirt Year for him to get him to 184 and find a Portal Option. You've also got A.J. Heeg available who was ready to jump in when Thompson was struggling early. Both Thompson and Williams showed signs at certain points during the season; between the 2, Thompson seems to be a big more of a question mark. Will he make the necessary commitments to be great? We will see and time will tell. So the options seem to be either ride with him, Redshirt and either replace in the Portal or go with Heeg.

184: The new leader of the Team. Big 12 Champ and NCAA Finalist. Wish OSU had 5-6 more weights like this.

197: Interesting situation #6. What do you do with a guy like Luke Surber? How much has injury affected him this past season? This guy has beaten BOTH Elam Brothers. He seems like the ultimate OSU guy. Before this season, the answer to the 2 Standards Questions seemed to be Yes. After this season, who knows what to think. Is Christian Carroll going to be at this weight? If he is, and can't beat Surber, will he be willing to be patient? Can Surber beat Carroll? If Carroll is as good as his ranking, and comes in and commands the weight, that would simplify things. What if Surber returns to the form he showed prior to this year? In an ideal world, you have one final season of peak Surber with Carroll coming in behind.

285: Interesting situation #7: If Carroll is indeed at 197, it looks like OSU is headed for one more year of Konner Doucet. The difficult thing about Doucet is that the answer to the 2 Standards Questions unless proven otherwise is No. Which limits OSU's ability to both 1. Win a Big 12 Title and 2. Close the gap with Penn State. I don't know if you go Portal here for a 1 year guy. Merrill likely won't be ready to go on Day 1. Is Surber up for a bulk job again? Which path gives OSU the best chance to answer the 2 Standards Questions? This is murky at best and looking at it today, its hard to see any situation other than Doucet.

This makes guessing extremely difficult. So here goes on a Dual #1 Line-Up (Big 12 Champ Potential/AA Potential):

125: Spratley (Yes/Yes)
133: Witcraft (No/No) OR McComas (No/No)
141: Jamison (Yes/Yes) OR Hughes (Yes/Yes)
149: Williams (Yes/Yes)
157: Travis (Outside Chance with Downey & Chittum/Outside Chance)
165: Portal
174: Thompson (Yes, only Sax ahead of him/Outside Chance)
184: Plott (Yes/Yes)
197: Carroll (Yes, this weight COMLETEY clears out in the Big 12/Maybe?)
285: Doucet (No - Schultz & Heindselman, who has figured Doucet out/No)

 

[Harleycowboy]

Plott was a bonus point machine. I think we have bonus point machines coming up - CC, Sakamoto, Lockett, Merrill - just need elite talent. Fix would have been a bonus point machine at 125.

I have begun to figure out we have been recruiting real good but the results have been disappointing. I would not be counting our chickens until they hatch. 2020 recruiting class was believed to be outstanding but did not turn out that way for various reasons. I believed AJ Ferrari was the number 1 recruit in the country and Dustin Plott was number 2. We also got number 13 pound for pound Trevor Mastrogiovanni, number 54 Burks, number 63 Surber and number 90 Doucette. Not a great return for this potentially great class. Plott was the only long term standout. 2021 we followed up with another very good class with 3 highly rated pound for pound wrestlers. Victor Voinovich was rated 12th, Kyle Haas 18 and Travis Mastrogiovanni was rated 39. Many of our recruits were rated much higher prior to their senior years but injuries pushed them back. Carter Young who many on this forum thought was going to be a dominant wrestler came in this class also. No All Americans from this group and maybe no one in this class will ever be an All American. 2022 Class was not strong some because Anthony Ferrari was part of this class and of course, didn't come. Jordan Williams was rated 12th and Zac Blankenship was rated 99th. 2019 was another poor class with Witcraft rated 24th, Balmaceda rated 25th, and Manibog rated 47th. Witcraft has been a good Cowboy and filled in nicely but nobody from this class has been close to being an All American. Then we have last year's 2023 class which was number 1 with pound for pound number 1 before he got injured his senior year Christian Carroll, number 4 Brayden Thompson, number 9 Cael Hughes, number 53 AJ Heeg and number 84 Jersey Robb. A great class on paper but result answers will take some time to see if they are a great class. Saw nothing their 1st year that says any of these wrestlers will be great. One more problem with this great on paper class is that weights are not working out with this class.
As you can see what our staff does with highly ranked recruits overall is terrible with Plott being the only consistent All American and Ferrari being a 1 year star. We get the wrong kids or don't develop them very well. Most likely some combination of the 2. But during this time recruiting good, the last 3 years we have finished 14, 18 and 10 at Nationals. With recruiting my observation it was the young coaches who saw hard working staffs get early top commitments started recruiting early and Coach Smith(Dinasaur) thought you should recruit guys their senior years. We have been dinosaurs in the wrestling world which was inexcusable and have been basically extinct when based on our history we should have been the leaders. I hope things change and our 2023 class and 2024 class will need to be All Americans or National Champs.

 

[BackHomePoke]

It seems very simplistic but what separated us from a top 5 finish this year was the three zero advancement weights. 141 174 197 killed us.
We were 11 points from 5th place Iowa.
16.5 from being in second place just can’t have weights that don’t win one match as a starting point.
I also had so much high hopes early in the season as we seemed to be bouncing and being much more from an offensive standpoint then we stopped.

 

[Cowboy1989]

I have begun to figure out we have been recruiting real good but the results have been disappointing. I would not be counting our chickens until they hatch. 2020 recruiting class was believed to be outstanding but did not turn out that way for various reasons. I believed AJ Ferrari was the number 1 recruit in the country and Dustin Plott was number 2. We also got number 13 pound for pound Trevor Mastrogiovanni, number 54 Burks, number 63 Surber and number 90 Doucette. Not a great return for this potentially great class. Plott was the only long term standout. 2021 we followed up with another very good class with 3 highly rated pound for pound wrestlers. Victor Voinovich was rated 12th, Kyle Haas 18 and Travis Mastrogiovanni was rated 39. Many of our recruits were rated much higher prior to their senior years but injuries pushed them back. Carter Young who many on this forum thought was going to be a dominant wrestler came in this class also. No All Americans from this group and maybe no one in this class will ever be an All American. 2022 Class was not strong some because Anthony Ferrari was part of this class and of course, didn't come. Jordan Williams was rated 12th and Zac Blankenship was rated 99th. 2019 was another poor class with Witcraft rated 24th, Balmaceda rated 25th, and Manibog rated 47th. Witcraft has been a good Cowboy and filled in nicely but nobody from this class has been close to being an All American. Then we have last year's 2023 class which was number 1 with pound for pound number 1 before he got injured his senior year Christian Carroll, number 4 Brayden Thompson, number 9 Cael Hughes, number 53 AJ Heeg and number 84 Jersey Robb. A great class on paper but result answers will take some time to see if they are a great class. Saw nothing their 1st year that says any of these wrestlers will be great. One more problem with this great on paper class is that weights are not working out with this class.
As you can see what our staff does with highly ranked recruits overall is terrible with Plott being the only consistent All American and Ferrari being a 1 year star. We get the wrong kids or don't develop them very well. Most likely some combination of the 2. But during this time recruiting good, the last 3 years we have finished 14, 18 and 10 at Nationals. With recruiting my observation it was the young coaches who saw hard working staffs get early top commitments started recruiting early and Coach Smith(Dinasaur) thought you should recruit guys their senior years. We have been dinosaurs in the wrestling world which was inexcusable and have been basically extinct when based on our history we should have been the leaders. I hope things change and our 2023 class and 2024 class will need to be All Americans or National Champs.

I think we have turned a corner in recruiting recently but until we see the results we won't really know. We can't recruit guys with questionable character like AJ any more no matter how talented. We also can't recruit guys that are not totally dedicated to the sport and strongly desire to achieve great things. We have done a whole lot of both of that in recruiting the past 10-15 years. To compete in today's world ALL of them must be dedicated to the sport and have good character or they ruin your whole team. Then you have to have a good number with elite talent on top of that to challenge for the top spot.

 

[Old Number Nine]

Parker Keckeisen:
-One of the more dominant wrestlers I recall recently. Would be my vote for Hodge
-Won every match by bonus except 3
-Now has a career record of 105-5
-Hoping Plott can eliminate the gap, but Parker is favored to be the next 5x conference champ

I agree completely about Keckeisen. I still remember the duel in Stillwater when I think Plott was wrestling his best of the season (except in the tourney sans the finals), Plot was in deep on his leg I think three times and was never close to converting.

However, there is something I was thinking while watching all three of the Plott/Keck matches. Keckeisen wrestles like a punk.

He hangs on the edge of the mat and throws the other guy OB if the get in tight.

I can't remember seeing a wrestler who seems to have a great gas tank take as long as he does just to get up from the ground, fix his knee pad/singlet then slowly walk back to the circle with impunity.

The crazy thing is he doesn't need any of it. Maybe he did in the past and just can't stop the routing.

 

[giddyup]

Keckeisen - I predict he's at Penn State next year, so no 5 time Big12 for him. Cael's going to throw a fat NIL check out there.

 

[Pokes1988]

It seems very simplistic but what separated us from a top 5 finish this year was the three zero advancement weights. 141 174 197 killed us.
We were 11 points from 5th place Iowa.
16.5 from being in second place just can’t have weights that don’t win one match as a starting point.
I also had so much high hopes early in the season as we seemed to be bouncing and being much more from an offensive standpoint then we stopped.

When you put it like this, clearly a missed opportunity....If all 3 of those weights had won 3 matches (in any order), we would've placed in the top 5 easily...But when two of them go 0-2, it's super tough to do anything...

I personally think finishing 10th was pretty decent after a total letdown year. SHOULD'VE finished higher but it's pretty easy to see 'why' we didn't.

Hopefully the Coleman Scott experiment continues to work and we keep working.

 

[Okie_Pat]

When you put it like this, clearly a missed opportunity....If all 3 of those weights had won 3 matches (in any order), we would've placed in the top 5 easily...But when two of them go 0-2, it's super tough to do anything...

I personally think finishing 10th was pretty decent after a total letdown year. SHOULD'VE finished higher but it's pretty easy to see 'why' we didn't.

Hopefully the Coleman Scott experiment continues to work and we keep working.

3 of our guys went 0-2. Hard to put yourself in contention when you have that. Spratley making the podium would of helped team points wise but only like an extra 5 pts, maybe a point or two more. Jaminson was someone who could of really helped move us up the standings because we potentially missed out on ~5.5-6 pts there.

 

[Inky29]

My thoughts haven't changed from this time last year. No real difference. Instead of facing Vito in the semi's, Fix faced him in the finals (few extra team points there) and Plott was healthy (finally) at a better weight all year and wrestled like he did his FR year before injury (2nd vs a 6th). Went out and brought in an AA and guess what, he AA'd again. When things matter we still put out the same product and had guys not step up and take advantage of advantageous situations (upsets on their side of the bracket, winning a close match against to pull an upset, getting a takedown, or not being riden out). However, I didn't expect much to change because only a fool does the same thing over and over again and expects a different result. I'm no fool. Short of a major change I expect us to finish around 10th next year as well.

Either we aren't recruiting all that well or we aren't developing the talent once it gets here. Sadly it kind of still looks like both are true. The last recruited AA came from the 2021 class, Dustin Plott. Since that class, we haven't had a homegrown AA. Izzy came to us as an AA. That screams that there's a massive problem in house but until our very own Captain Smith is replaced I don't see the results being any better than those of the other famous Captain Smith.

As far as the CS experiment, I'd say it's too early to say one way or the other if it's made any impact. I was always told that it was just going to be another JS voice so nothing really all that groundbreaking. I want to see how guys like JW, TS, TJ, and TT all develop between now and next year before I make any type of judgment.

Oh well, I love this program so I'll continue to give, come to matches, and hope for a miracle.

 

[Okie_Pat]

We had 4 freshman and 1 sophomore wrestling for the first time at nationals. In an ideal world it would have been awesome for 2 of them to make the podium. But we just aren’t thag program right now and nobody is but PSU. You can make a case for ASU with Figueroa and tOSU with Mendez winning titles but both were very high recruits and frankly if you were to wrestle the 125 bracket 10 times I think you probably get 8 different champs. I’m not happy with the way things went and felt they should have gone a little better for us but I personally think next year results will be the deciding factor. CS in the room for another year with this young lineup will tell us everything we need to know about how guys are developing.

 

[PhantomPete1994]

 

[JAY45]

View embedded media

Get Him

 

[Ok_Longhorn]

Go get him. Pat mineo tweeted Michigan was interested but I don’t think that makes sense. They have amine at 165 and beau mantanona behind him so one of them would go 174 so no room for hamiti but idk hell if hamiti does go to Michigan then ok state should go get mantanona

 

[Inky29]

Saw this link on Flo and thought it was interesting.

2024 All-Americans By Graduating Class & Big Board Position - FloWrestling

A deep dive into the age of this year's NCAA All-Americans and how good they were coming out of high school.

www.flowrestling.org

 

[Howie_Fartz]

Regarding some of those past recruits, everyone knows about AJ. Burks couldnt beat Mastro. Mastro was pulling his Fn guts out and thats why he had to walk away. Not to run some damned zoo. VV actually had a solid RSFR NCAA tournament but he hit the road for various reasons. Balmaceda got into the wrong things once he hit college. It is what it is.

That being said the energy and overall "climate" shall we say lol, in the room has vastly improved. These young guys WILL get better.

 

[proud2bpokes]

I agree completely about Keckeisen. I still remember the duel in Stillwater when I think Plott was wrestling his best of the season (except in the tourney sans the finals), Plot was in deep on his leg I think three times and was never close to converting.

However, there is something I was thinking while watching all three of the Plott/Keck matches. Keckeisen wrestles like a punk.

He hangs on the edge of the mat and throws the other guy OB if the get in tight.

I can't remember seeing a wrestler who seems to have a great gas tank take as long as he does just to get up from the ground, fix his knee pad/singlet then slowly walk back to the circle with impunity.

The crazy thing is he doesn't need any of it. Maybe he did in the past and just can't stop the routing.

I agree with all of the above. He does wrestle at the edge some. He also gets away with some hands to the face. Those are some of the reasons he is a challenge. He gives a lot of different looks.

 

[voltz99]

Keckeisen - I predict he's at Penn State next year, so no 5 time Big12 for him. Cael's going to throw a fat NIL check out there.

Josh Barr will be at 184

 

[OSUMatFan]

If that were the case he would have been at Penn State this year. UNI is paying NIL money and you can tell. Not as much as Michigan, but there is money there. I think wrestling as a whole will be damaged by NIL money with freshmen AA's leaving for rich schools. In wrestling we are a rich school.

 

[Cowboy Tommy]

We had 4 freshman and 1 sophomore wrestling for the first time at nationals. In an ideal world it would have been awesome for 2 of them to make the podium. But we just aren’t thag program right now and nobody is but PSU. You can make a case for ASU with Figueroa and tOSU with Mendez winning titles but both were very high recruits and frankly if you were to wrestle the 125 bracket 10 times I think you probably get 8 different champs. I’m not happy with the way things went and felt they should have gone a little better for us but I personally think next year results will be the deciding factor. CS in the room for another year with this young lineup will tell us everything we need to know about how guys are developing.

I'm so sick of this "we were young" excuse. So is Penn State and those guys go out and dominate. Messenbrink was a RFR who transferred from Cal Baptist (not exactly a wrestling power) and probably should have won a national title and he will likely win 3 of them before he leaves. Spratley and Jamison are RFR from Minnesota, a historically great program and couldn't even get on the podium let alone make a championship run (plus an 0-2 BBQ)

Just because we have some Frosh and Soph doesn't mean we shouldn't be competing for a title at OSU, there are now high school kids who are beating Division 1 top ranked wrestlers, its all about WHO we recruit

 

[Old Number Nine]

Here are some PSU Stats from the Tourney (got them from the web, hope they're correct):

6 Finalists (record)
4 Champions (record is 5)
8 All Americans (record is 10)
33.5 Advancement pts (probably a record considering 6 finalists)
34 Bonus pts (had to be a record)
104 Placement pts (also probable a record)
172.5 Team pts (record)
100 Point victory margin (record by a large margin; next is 73.25 then 70)
11 of 13 championships run (matches our 1934-1949 and Iowa's 1975-1987 11 of 13 runs )

This info make it obvious that there is something seriously wrong with the state NCAA Wrestling. My question is there anything the NCAA can do to address this, even if they/it wanted to.

With the current state of college athletics funding and the perceived importance (or lack thereof) of individual NCAA sports (Football,Basketball...), I can't imagine what happen to Wrestling as a sport if PSU's current run approached anything like Iowa's 70's, 80's, 90's run (20 of 26 with 9 in a row in that span). That would truly suck.

 

[Okie_Pat]

I'm so sick of this "we were young" excuse. So is Penn State and those guys go out and dominate. Messenbrink was a RFR who transferred from Cal Baptist (not exactly a wrestling power) and probably should have won a national title and he will likely win 3 of them before he leaves. Spratley and Jamison are RFR from Minnesota, a historically great program and couldn't even get on the podium let alone make a championship run (plus an 0-2 BBQ)

Just because we have some Frosh and Soph doesn't mean we shouldn't be competing for a title at OSU, there are now high school kids who are beating Division 1 top ranked wrestlers, its all about WHO we recruit

I wasn’t using it as an excuse just stating facts. PSU is the only program consistently having FR year after year reach their goals and get on the podium. Nobody else really is besides the obvious 2 this year. I agree with what you’re saying it shouldn’t be used as an excuse but we probably have more young talent currently on and coming in than anyone else besides the PissU

 

[blair2000]

I'm so sick of this "we were young" excuse. So is Penn State and those guys go out and dominate. Messenbrink was a RFR who transferred from Cal Baptist (not exactly a wrestling power) and probably should have won a national title and he will likely win 3 of them before he leaves. Spratley and Jamison are RFR from Minnesota, a historically great program and couldn't even get on the podium let alone make a championship run (plus an 0-2 BBQ)

Just because we have some Frosh and Soph doesn't mean we shouldn't be competing for a title at OSU, there are now high school kids who are beating Division 1 top ranked wrestlers, its all about WHO we recruit

You should really know what you’re talking about before you run your mouth and disrespect kids you know nothing about Mesenbrink is a two-time world champ. Cael did nothing to get Mesenbrink there. What happened to their 25 pounder the one seed I don’t see you talking about him what happened to nagua 133 returning all American did not place anyone can take the Number one recruits in the country to the podium . Coach Smith was a three seed as a freshman did not place. Chris Perry was a 8 seed as a freshman did not place. They both ended up to national champs. You might give some of them a break.

 

[CowboyUp61]

"You should really know what you’re talking about before you run your mouth and disrespect kids you know nothing about" " You might give some of them a break."

some are too busy showing off how much they don't know-and telling us our coaching staff is incompetent.

 

[chasepollard]

You should really know what you’re talking about before you run your mouth and disrespect kids you know nothing about Mesenbrink is a two-time world champ. Cael did nothing to get Mesenbrink there. What happened to their 25 pounder the one seed I don’t see you talking about him what happened to nagua 133 returning all American did not place anyone can take the Number one recruits in the country to the podium . Coach Smith was a three seed as a freshman did not place. Chris Perry was a 8 seed as a freshman did not place. They both ended up to national champs. You might give some of them a break.

You’re missing the point. We don’t need to wish or hope to be Penn State, we need to beat them.

Youth can’t continue to be the narrative on why we place 18th and 10th.

Let’s punch guys through to the quarters, get some in the semis, with some in the finals with the rest standing in the blood round.

That’s how we start positioning to compete for 35. Going 2/out is not what OSU Wrestlers should be doing.

 

[alex1fly]

Welp I guess I’ll wade in here.

Season was fun. I’ve never been a “nationals is all that matters” person so I got to enjoy the duals, lol. Energy and hope was present throughout the season which was great. More chain wrestling and better escapes. Loads of new faces, lots of growth, upset a ton of opponents… all what you want in a reload year.

125 - dig this firecracker kid. Want to see what he does next year.
133 - consummate cowboy. Obv wanted that title for him but without it he’s still a great. Just a monster on the mat.
141 - bit of an enigma. Obviously super solid and strong. Love anytime a wrestler has a good double leg. Great defense too. Too many close matches for comfort though maybe the cut was tough?
149 - I rode the ride just like the rest of you. Don’t need to rehash. Looking forward to next year to see what he can do.
157 - pleasant surprise. Dual season, super solid. Beating Brock Mauller twice was really nice for me personally LOL. Another I’m excited for next season.
165 - happy to have him, glad he thrived.
174 - another enigma. Physically, extremely impressive. But didn’t unlock it this year and seemed so grumpy vibe-wise. Maybe that’s just his demeanor and it’s not my place to compare.
184 - just a monster. What a specimen. Huge, fast, smart, mean. Loved watching him compete this year. In so much control.
197 - wish he’d had this season to see if he could level up. Didn’t fall that way. He hasn’t had a consistent season yet. A bit bummed for him.
285 - did well until the end of the season, folks sort of figured him out. Or probability-wise you just have to stop winning coin tosses at some point.

In regards to moving forward, not that my opinion matters but I’m torn between the idea of loyalty and the idea of “may the best man win”. On one hand, we’ve seen what happens when guys get third and fourth chances. Seems like two seasons as a starter is enough to suss out one’s ceiling, generally. And by bringing in the best athletes you can, everyone should improve in theory.

 

[chasepollard]

Welp I guess I’ll wade in here.

Season was fun. I’ve never been a “nationals is all that matters” person so I got to enjoy the duals, lol. Energy and hope was present throughout the season which was great. More chain wrestling and better escapes. Loads of new faces, lots of growth, upset a ton of opponents… all what you want in a reload year.

125 - dig this firecracker kid. Want to see what he does next year.
133 - consummate cowboy. Obv wanted that title for him but without it he’s still a great. Just a monster on the mat.
141 - bit of an enigma. Obviously super solid and strong. Love anytime a wrestler has a good double leg. Great defense too. Too many close matches for comfort though maybe the cut was tough?
149 - I rode the ride just like the rest of you. Don’t need to rehash. Looking forward to next year to see what he can do.
157 - pleasant surprise. Dual season, super solid. Beating Brock Mauller twice was really nice for me personally LOL. Another I’m excited for next season.
165 - happy to have him, glad he thrived.
174 - another enigma. Physically, extremely impressive. But didn’t unlock it this year and seemed so grumpy vibe-wise. Maybe that’s just his demeanor and it’s not my place to compare.
184 - just a monster. What a specimen. Huge, fast, smart, mean. Loved watching him compete this year. In so much control.
197 - wish he’d had this season to see if he could level up. Didn’t fall that way. He hasn’t had a consistent season yet. A bit bummed for him.
285 - did well until the end of the season, folks sort of figured him out. Or probability-wise you just have to stop winning coin tosses at some point.

In regards to moving forward, not that my opinion matters but I’m torn between the idea of loyalty and the idea of “may the best man win”. On one hand, we’ve seen what happens when guys get third and fourth chances. Seems like two seasons as a starter is enough to suss out one’s ceiling, generally. And by bringing in the best athletes you can, everyone should improve in theory.

I hate it that this is where college sports is at.

Penn State, Iowa, Ohio State, Michigan, etc. don't care about any of that and it is proving to be a winner. There are several programs that have the money and expectations to win, ethics don't play into that equation.

John Smith isn't going to do the things that are now front and center. He is going to give these young men chances to be better and bring in the best he can, but he most likely won't portal over a hard working starter that is doing the right things to be a good Wrestler.

He also has a limited transfer portal pool. I don't ever see him taking a guy from Pat Pop, Erisman, Pendelton, etc. because he cares about them and the sport more than he does winning at all costs. Those other schools would steal from their mother to win. John Smith won't!

Honestly, I would rather get 2nd or 3rd with honor than I would win it all with poor scruples.

 

[Chasingthirty-five]

Honestly, I would rather get 2nd or 3rd with honor than I would win it all with poor scruples.

Somehow, I agreed with everything you said until this statement haha

 

[chasepollard]

Somehow, I agreed with everything you said until this statement haha

That is almost impossible?

But yeah, that's how I feel! I don't want to be some dirty program that just uses and casts aside kids.

 

[Howie_Fartz]

That is almost impossible?

But yeah, that's how I feel! I don't want to be some dirty program that just uses and casts aside kids.

It's a fine line boys.

 

[Okie_Pat]

I want to win and do it with guys we recruit and develop. It’s much more rewarding but I also don’t mind seeing someone like Izzak who came from a small program and whom I think benefitted majorly from being in the room. But bringing in established AA’s for money isn’t going to do anything for me. But it’s all going that direction so if you can’t beat them join them.

 

[DPJ]

I want to win and do it with guys we recruit and develop. It’s much more rewarding but I also don’t mind seeing someone like Izzak who came from a small program and whom I think benefitted majorly from being in the room. But bringing in established AA’s for money isn’t going to do anything for me. But it’s all going that direction so if you can’t beat them join them.

I feel the same way as far as winning with our own guys and not building a team out of transfers. That being said the portal game is here to stay and we need to stay aggressive getting top transfers into the program or we'll be left in the dust.

 

[Cowboy Tommy]

You should really know what you’re talking about before you run your mouth and disrespect kids you know nothing about Mesenbrink is a two-time world champ. Cael did nothing to get Mesenbrink there. What happened to their 25 pounder the one seed I don’t see you talking about him what happened to nagua 133 returning all American did not place anyone can take the Number one recruits in the country to the podium . Coach Smith was a three seed as a freshman did not place. Chris Perry was a 8 seed as a freshman did not place. They both ended up to national champs. You might give some of them a break.

You're the Pat Mineo of this board, you will throw stuff at the wall to see what sticks or just make vague statements that can go either way and try to act like an insider. And you have no idea what or who I know in the program

 

[OSUMatFan]

I want to win and do it legally. I do not like the idea of going after AA wrestlers at less developed programs (that might just kill the program). I have no problem with Big 10 wrestlers, graduates, and darn sure anyone in high school. If they are in the portal they want to be elsewhere, but alumni or coaches recruiting kids to enter the portal is not appropriate.

 

[AtownPoke]

I want to win and do it legally. I do not like the idea of going after AA wrestlers at less developed programs (that might just kill the program). I have no problem with Big 10 wrestlers, graduates, and darn sure anyone in high school. If they are in the portal they want to be elsewhere, but alumni or coaches recruiting kids to enter the portal is not appropriate.

I 100% agree but we have to be ready to be that much better because others won’t feel that way and they’ll be filling holes and making things happen while we’re coloring inside the lines (which we should imo)

 

[OSUMatFan]

To my knowledge we are more aggressive on NIL plus portal than most other significant programs. I will work with others that contribute NIL money to know whom we want at anytime so we can act quickly. A coherent plan is essential or we will just throw around money. The fifth year senior in 2024 really complicates the dynamics.