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Sensible change to prevent mass school shootings

Anyone applying 'controls' to gun ownership or usage should apply those same controls to any other right and see if it makes sense. If it does. proceed. If you wouldn't put that same restriction on free speech, religion, voting, assembly; then you don't get to apply it to guns.

Time, place and manner restrictions exist on peaceable assembly, including when, where, how many people in a certain area, placement/size of signs, crowd noise
level, etc.

US v Heller reiterated the right to keep and bear arms isn’t unlimited. “2. Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, con- cealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of fire- arms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.”
 
I'll take the opinion of the SCOTUS over yours.
Scalia wrote Heller after he was lobbied and feted and wined and dined at all the gun lobbyist events. He even bragged to a lobbyist in Europe at a gun event that he was getting Heller done.

Hell he died at a gun retreat. It's so typical of right wingers -- you peel the onion just a little bit and it's dishonest and corrupt. Judges being lobbied and wined and dined. SMH.
 
Totally disingenuous. Your options aren't protected in the constitution. I specifically put in other delineated protections.

If you are okay with requiring someone to have a license to exercise their free speech or passing a test to vote - then by all means apply those same controls on firearms.
I get it. Your personal right to have an assault rifle without background checks or limitations trumps other people's rights to not have their kids killed. Democracy is messy, etc.

That's the conservative ethos -- self interest. Until and unless it's YOUR kid you're identifying at the morgue, the right of insane people to have instant control over who lives and dies is paramount.

Once conservatives' kids get killed, they come around. Nancy was against stem cell research until it could help Ronnie. Lots of republicans were against gay marriage until their own family members came out -- if I heard that once I heard it 100 times. We can go on all day about the conservatives that changed their minds about something once THEY were impacted.
 
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But, is proving your identity (to vote) spelled out in the constitution?
If you really want to see some originalist mental gymnastics, ask them what "being necessary to the security of a free State" means.
 
Anyone applying 'controls' to gun ownership or usage should apply those same controls to any other right and see if it makes sense. If it does. proceed. If you wouldn't put that same restriction on free speech, religion, voting, assembly; then you don't get to apply it to guns.

I don't necessarily agree with this because there are nearly two centuries of Supreme Court decisions determining the boundaries and depth of what each right are.

And they're not the same.
 
I'll take the opinion of the SCOTUS over yours.
Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. See, e.g., Sheldon, in 5 Blume 346; Rawle 123; Pomeroy 152–153; Abbott333. For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues. See, e.g., State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann., at 489–490; Nunn v. State, 1 Ga., at 251; see generally 2 Kent *340, n. 2; The American Students’ Blackstone 84, n. 11 (G. Chase ed. 1884). Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment , nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.26

We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. Miller said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those “in common use at the time.” 307 U. S., at 179. We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of “dangerous and unusual weapons.” See 4 Blackstone 148–149 (1769); 3 B. Wilson, Works of the Honourable James Wilson 79 (1804); J. Dunlap, The New-York Justice 8 (1815); C. Humphreys, A Compendium of the Common Law in Force in Kentucky 482 (1822); 1 W. Russell, A Treatise on Crimes and Indictable Misdemeanors 271–272 (1831); H. Stephen, Summary of the Criminal Law 48 (1840); E. Lewis, An Abridgment of the Criminal Law of the United States 64 (1847); F. Wharton, A Treatise on the Criminal Law of the United States 726 (1852). See also State v. Langford, 10 N. C. 381, 383–384 (1824); O’Neill v. State, 16Ala. 65, 67 (1849); English v. State, 35Tex. 473, 476 (1871); State v. Lanier, 71 N. C. 288, 289 (1874).

It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service—M-16 rifles and the like—may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment ’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large. Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks. But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.

(Emphasis added).

Scalia majority opinion in DC v. Heller.
 
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I don't necessarily agree with this because there are nearly two centuries of Supreme Court decisions determining the boundaries and depth of what each right are.

And they're not the same.
Fair enough. But in each of those decisions the boundary of my right being limited was where your right begins. In spirt if nothing else.
The simple fact of me owning a firearm doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights. Regardless of capacity.
 
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@Ostatedchi and @2012Bearcat, in posting my responses I'm not at all arguing or advocating for particular policy or law changes that should or shouldn't be taken.

I'm merely discussing the boundaries of constitutionality with regards to policy changes.

For instance, I don't think AR bans would be good policy, but they may very well be constitutional.
 
Scalia wrote Heller after he was lobbied and feted and wined and dined at all the gun lobbyist events. He even bragged to a lobbyist in Europe at a gun event that he was getting Heller done.

Hell he died at a gun retreat. It's so typical of right wingers -- you peel the onion just a little bit and it's dishonest and corrupt. Judges being lobbied and wined and dined. SMH.
Now do the liberal justices.
 
@Ostatedchi and @2012Bearcat, in posting my responses I'm not at all arguing or advocating for particular policy or law changes that should or shouldn't be taken.

I'm merely discussing the boundaries of constitutionality with regards to policy changes.

For instance, I don't think AR bans would be good policy, but they may very well be constitutional.
I really hope Democrats try to solve the problem with banning ARs. The majority of the American people know what the problem is and it's not scary ARs.
 
I really hope Democrats try to solve the problem with banning ARs. The majority of the American people know what the problem is and it's not scary ARs.

The National Firearms Act of 1934 was codified to explicitly restrict certain types of weapons utilized by the pervading criminal element of the time, outlawing sawed-off shotguns and machine guns.

I’m also not in favor of an AR ban, but let’s not act like it hasn’t been a preferred and unfortunately quite-efficient tool of choice for mass shootings.


Carry on
 
That's because you live in a bubble and rarely interact with people outside it. (That's my opinion).
And you are entitled to it but if it were popular Democrats would have already passed it but for some reason they can't. Wonder why that is if it's so popular? Oh that's right, the big bad scary gun lobby. SMFH
 
There is room to negotiate on certain points, for instance:

We should not give guns to bad people. Simple statement, I think everyone agrees. However, there is a problem with the statement. Who gets to determine who is a "bad" person? I think we all can agree that the tribal sides will use this against each other. So, what is the solution? The constitution gives you that as well. Rights can be taken away with due process. If a jury of your peers determines that you should not be able to carry a firearm, then that right is gone. A jury can take your freedom, even your life, it can certainly take your firearm. The downside is you are adding a lot of cases to already stretched legal system, the upside is the determination is acceptable to just about everyone.

Age limit restrictions are possible, as well as gun safety training courses. Both options without going after firearms, but both would have to be compromised on and requires politicians to work.
The rhetoric has not changed though, and instead of trying to find common ground each side is deeply entrenched into their positions because each side's hard lines are irreconcilable. Therefore, we must look to other options, but so far all I have seen is the same old talking points of the past.
 
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There is room to negotiate on certain points, for instance:

We should not give guns to bad people. Simple statement, I think everyone agrees. However, there is a problem with the statement. Who gets to determine who is a "bad" person? I think we all can agree that the tribal sides will use this against each other. So, what is the solution? The constitution gives you that as well. Rights can be taken away with due process. If a jury of your peers determines that you should not be able to carry a firearm, then that right is gone. A jury can take your freedom, even your life, it can certainly take your firearm. The downside is you are adding a lot of cases to already stretched legal system, the upside is the determination is acceptable to just about everyone.

Age limit restrictions are possible, as well as gun safety training courses. Both options without going after firearms, but both would have to be compromised on and requires politicians to work.
The rhetoric has not changed though, and instead of trying to find common ground each side is deeply entrenched into their positions because each side's hard lines are irreconcilable. Therefore, we must look to other options, but so far all I have seen is the same old talking points of the past.
Do it by country instead of county.
 
There is room to negotiate on certain points, for instance:

We should not give guns to bad people. Simple statement, I think everyone agrees. However, there is a problem with the statement. Who gets to determine who is a "bad" person? I think we all can agree that the tribal sides will use this against each other. So, what is the solution? The constitution gives you that as well. Rights can be taken away with due process. If a jury of your peers determines that you should not be able to carry a firearm, then that right is gone. A jury can take your freedom, even your life, it can certainly take your firearm. The downside is you are adding a lot of cases to already stretched legal system, the upside is the determination is acceptable to just about everyone.

Age limit restrictions are possible, as well as gun safety training courses. Both options without going after firearms, but both would have to be compromised on and requires politicians to work.
The rhetoric has not changed though, and instead of trying to find common ground each side is deeply entrenched into their positions because each side's hard lines are irreconcilable. Therefore, we must look to other options, but so far all I have seen is the same old talking points of the past.

I think there are a couple concepts that could help. Some European country has a ton of guns -- it's kind of related to their militia. They can have them but they're licensed and trained and if one is used for nefarious purposes, they rightful owner has problems.

The other is liability for guns. I get a guy wants a gun and is responsible and he's not the problem. But what about the guy that sells a wildman an AR and he goes and kills 25 people with it? There should be liability for handing a murderer his gun. If there was, you'd see crazy people have a lot harder time getting a gun.

The last thing is regulate semi automatics. I don't care what anybody says, nobody needs 30 rounds for hunting or any other legitimate purpose. A bolt action or pump with limited rounds is still lethal but you don't have the same ease of killing people.
 
I think there are a couple concepts that could help. Some European country has a ton of guns -- it's kind of related to their militia. They can have them but they're licensed and trained and if one is used for nefarious purposes, they rightful owner has problems.

The other is liability for guns. I get a guy wants a gun and is responsible and he's not the problem. But what about the guy that sells a wildman an AR and he goes and kills 25 people with it? There should be liability for handing a murderer his gun. If there was, you'd see crazy people have a lot harder time getting a gun.

The last thing is regulate semi automatics. I don't care what anybody says, nobody needs 30 rounds for hunting or any other legitimate purpose. A bolt action or pump with limited rounds is still lethal but you don't have the same ease of killing people.
Liability and training definitely has some area for politicians to dive into. Someone might be able to talk me into licensure, but I need something that makes sense and doesn't give one side or the other a tool.

The last point is crossing hard lines and draws people back to their corners. The exercise here is finding ways and areas to compromise in. That one is a non-starter.
 
Raising the age of purchasing certain firearms to 25? You have to be 25 to rent a car or rent a hotel room. A lot of these mass shooters, particularly at schools, are 18-21.
 
Liability and training definitely has some area for politicians to dive into. Someone might be able to talk me into licensure, but I need something that makes sense and doesn't give one side or the other a tool.

The last point is crossing hard lines and draws people back to their corners. The exercise here is finding ways and areas to compromise in. That one is a non-starter.

I just can't get my head around someone saying, "My recreation of shooting 30 rounds at once trumps stopping mass murders."

Who and why does someone need a 30 round clip?
 
Raising the age of purchasing certain firearms to 25? You have to be 25 to rent a car or rent a hotel room. A lot of these mass shooters, particularly at schools, are 18-21.
Compromise and go for age 21, with a provision for any who are in the military during that period. Would that be acceptable?
 
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I just can't get my head around someone saying, "My recreation of shooting 30 rounds at once trumps stopping mass murders."

Who and why does someone need a 30 round clip?

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I just can't get my head around someone saying, "My recreation of shooting 30 rounds at once trumps stopping mass murders."

Who and why does someone need a 30 round clip?
Yea I can't wrap my head around why women can't protect themselves from an unwanted pregnancy either but it is what it is.
 
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Raising the age of purchasing certain firearms to 25? You have to be 25 to rent a car or rent a hotel room. A lot of these mass shooters, particularly at schools, are 18-21.
Pretty sure that’s not a law, but rather the policy of the lessor. We used to rent hotel rooms for OU/TX when we were 18-20. Only the really cheap places in Florida would rent to us for spring break though.
 
Nope. Do not give these leftist fvckers one single bit of ground, because you know nothing short of disarmament will ever be enough for them.

I wouldn't say I'm not willing to compromise but any compromise would have to include a passed and implemented Constitutional Amendment specifically spelling out and protecting the individuals right to own firearms, settling the argument once and for all. I don't trust Democrats any further than I can throw the state of Texas.
 
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Vehicles - yep.

Installing electrical system - yep.

Prescribing drugs - yep.

Building a fence - yep.

Of course, freedom.of speech and freedom of voting don't result in 4th graders being slaughtered in a turkey shoot. They aren't public health measures.
Free speech can do far more damage than a gun, but it shall not be infringed upon.
 
I wouldn't say I'm not willing to compromise but any compromise would have to include a passed and implemented Constitutional Amendment specifically spelling out and protecting the individuals right to own firearms, settling the argument once and for all. I don't trust Democrats any further than I can throw the state of Texas.
Sounds like you’re making them an offer they’re bound to refuse. I think we’re on the same page.
 
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