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Sensible change to prevent mass school shootings

Did I? Here are two stories in the same thread posted by yourself CDS and @Been Jammin.



So in this story, the officers arrived and then engaged the suspect after they heard gunfire and he was in the building.



In this earlier post, they engaged the suspect outside the school (with no evidence of gunfire) and then he entered and began firing.

These are two very different stories. If Been's version is correct, then my earlier questions of the police response are invalid, and as you state, I'd agree that my implication of poor policing is not accurate. But your version, which was the one I replied to originally, indicates that the police engaged with him outside the school, in which case, I ask a legitimate question: Why didn't the police down a guy with a rifle and full body armor right then and there? And if they did try, how many shots did they fire in the attempt? Those are very valid questions IF the first engagement was outside the school (as reported by CNN).
Your initial post is that we just need to lock the front door and hire a security guard. Problem solved. That is a very simplistic approach to a complicated and serious problem. Living in Plano, my kids attended large schools. Those schools had multiple entrances. Depending on the situation, those entrances were often open, allowing students to bypass the main entrance (for example, early in the morning during marching band practice, when students were lugging equipment and instruments out of the side door by the athletic field). My kids' high school had a campus with multiple buildings. Are you going to lock every door and put a guard outside each building? Even if you do that, and a shooter wants to get inside, all he has to do is bang on one of the non guarded doors. Eventually, a student/teacher is going to open that door to see why someone is banging on it from the outside. If you find a way to prevent that, what do you do about all the windows/glass doors?

Sure, it is possible to transform all schools into fortresses. But to act like all we need to do is lock some doors and hire a guard is disingenuous, naive, and simplistic. But, I guess it is a good argument if you want to find a way to rationalize the reasons we are where we are in this country, and prevent blame from landing at the feet of those who you have supported.
 
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Texas government staff are currently discussing the very sad event. Laws and procedures were in place. Solutions are very challenging, fluid and difficult when evil rears it’s ugly and sinful head.
The murderer was an 18 y/o high school dropout who shot his grandmother in the face before proceeding to his rampage at the elementary school
 
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@aix_xpert FYI, Abbot said that there was shooting between the cops and killer before he entered the building.
And 2 were hit and hospitalized.

This kid was wearing a plate carrier vest, had a rifle, a pistol, 7 30-round magazines and plenty of motivation…he was determined to get his before he bought it.
 
And the grandmother is still alive in critical condition. Hopefully she pulls through and can provide information about his mental illness eventually
 
One guard with a gun is a target. Two is a deterrent.
Ah. So now we have morphed from "lock the doors and post a guard" to "lock the doors and post 2 guards". We are really making progress.

Did you know that Greg Abbot said that the state of Texas spent 6 million dollars trying to "harden" Texas schools and prevent these things from happening? Wow. 6 million dollars! That's approximately $60,000 per school. That should buy a lot of door locks. All is well.
 
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I heard an interesting proposal this morning on the radio. Some guy called in and was talking about putting police sub precincts in schools where feasible or close to schools when it's not. Would be an easy, effective and cost efficient deterrent. Thought it was good out of the box thinking that would be interesting to look at.
 
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I heard an interesting proposal this morning on the radio. Some guy called in and was talking about putting police sub precincts in schools where feasible or close to schools when it's not. Would be an easy, effective and cost efficient deterrent. Thought it was good out of the box thinking that would be interesting to look at.

Easy? Recruitment, training and retention of law enforcement (bilingual a +) is easy???

Effective? Maybe, but debatable…

Cost efficient? Not seeing that at all…how do you envision this being cheaper or perhaps just a break-even???



carry on
 
Your initial post is that we just need to lock the front door and hire a security guard. Problem solved. That is a very simplistic approach to a complicated and serious problem. Living in Plano, my kids attended large schools. Those schools had multiple entrances. Depending on the situation, those entrances were often open, allowing students to bypass the main entrance (for example, early in the morning during marching band practice, when students were lugging equipment and instruments out of the side door by the athletic field). My kids' high school had a campus with multiple buildings. Are you going to lock every door and put a guard outside each building? Even if you do that, and a shooter wants to get inside, all he has to do is bang on one of the non guarded doors. Eventually, a student/teacher is going to open that door to see why someone is banging on it from the outside. If you find a way to prevent that, what do you do about all the windows/glass doors?

Sure, it is possible to transform all schools into fortresses. But to act like all we need to do is lock some doors and hire a guard is disingenuous, naive, and simplistic. But, I guess it is a good argument if you want to find a way to rationalize the reasons we are where we are in this country, and prevent blame from landing at the feet of those who you have supported.
No. A locked door isn't going to prevent a motivated individual from committing such an act. Neither is an additional background check. But in this case, if the door was locked, would he have been at least slowed in his attempt to use the school as shelter from the engaged cops? I'd think so. As for the secondary entrances, you can use badge access. While I may not expect the general student populace to be able to keep up with ID cards, I can expect that in extracurrical activities. Why can't I expect a band student to carry key-card to enter the bandroom when I already expect them to bring their instrument.

In the end, as it is with each of these shootings, we jump straight to 'more gun control laws' while completely disregarding some very common sense mitigants that are right in front of us.

Finally, let me note that evil is evil. Whether its a school shooting, a random stranger getting gunned down on a subway car, or a 90 year old getting cold-clocked while walking down a sidewalk, our society has lost its sense of respect for each other and of the value of life, and no amount of new laws or legislation can fix that problem.
 
A lot of big high schools are a 'campus', where multiple times a day thousands of students are walking from building to building.
 
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Just talked to someone who has worked in that area for some time recently. Said the illegal immigration has created a huge problem for Police and that a very bad element exists in that area as a result. Police shutting down whole sections of a street trying to root out very bad illegals in the area happened several times while he was there. I am not going to pretend to know WTH is going on in the area, but someone who recently spent time in the area said he was not surprised this happened, the whole area is being turned in to a shit hole.
 
In the end, as it is with each of these shootings, we jump straight to 'more gun control laws' while completely disregarding some very common sense mitigants that are right in front of us.

IMO, there are things that fall under "more gun control laws" that are common sense mitigants that are right in front of us. There is a wide gulf between where we are now and the government making personal gun ownership illegal.
 
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I have a very sensible change to prevent most such mass school shootings and doesn't require one ounce of gun control:

Lock the ****ing School doors and hire a security guard for the front door. Basically manage the school building just like every large corporate office in America.

By the way, I've stated this same fix following each of the last 3 mass school shootings, all of which involved an individual who HAD NO BUSINESS being at the school being able to enter the school and roam the halls unmolested.

Ukraine got all the money.
 
Just talked to someone who has worked in that area for some time recently. Said the illegal immigration has created a huge problem for Police and that a very bad element exists in that area as a result. Police shutting down whole sections of a street trying to root out very bad illegals in the area happened several times while he was there. I am not going to pretend to know WTH is going on in the area, but someone who recently spent time in the area said he was not surprised this happened, the whole area is being turned in to a shit hole.
21 people killed by a man who was a resident of the town since he was a child. But, let's blame illegal immigrants. GMAFB
 
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I seriously can't think of a corporate office I have been to where a motivated person couldn't kill twenty people before being stopped. Maybe places that require DOD clearance?
Really? Offices with 100+ employees? Both the Hertz offices were that way all the way back in 2000. Hobby Lobby's corporate office is that way. IRS building is that way. Dell call center. National Forecasting center in Norman. Heck, try going in a side or back door at the post office or a bank. These places funnel everyone to the front door where you are immediately greeted by someone, many times with security. No, it doesn't stop every motivated killer, but no solution does that. But it would deter some. Dylan Roof thought he'd be able to escape in the confusion by 'looking like the other students'. But if his first engagement is with armed security rather than unarmed students, then lives are probably going to be saved if the event isn't deferred altogether.
 
Just talked to someone who has worked in that area for some time recently. Said the illegal immigration has created a huge problem for Police and that a very bad element exists in that area as a result. Police shutting down whole sections of a street trying to root out very bad illegals in the area happened several times while he was there. I am not going to pretend to know WTH is going on in the area, but someone who recently spent time in the area said he was not surprised this happened, the whole area is being turned in to a shit hole.

I’ve heard they been having a big problem with illegals born in…

North Dakota
 
Really? Offices with 100+ employees? Both the Hertz offices were that way all the way back in 2000. Hobby Lobby's corporate office is that way. IRS building is that way. Dell call center. National Forecasting center in Norman. Heck, try going in a side or back door at the post office or a bank. These places funnel everyone to the front door where you are immediately greeted by someone, many times with security. No, it doesn't stop every motivated killer, but no solution does that. But it would deter some. Dylan Roof thought he'd be able to escape in the confusion by 'looking like the other students'. But if his first engagement is with armed security rather than unarmed students, then lives are probably going to be saved if the event isn't deferred altogether.

They have a lot of schools in Florida shaped like Dell call centers, huh?

Sounds legit
 
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21 people killed by a man who was a resident of the town since he was a child. But, let's blame illegal immigrants. GMAFB
Not what I said. You are triggered SO easily. My impression of his point was the more bad actors and more criminal activity in an area leads to more and the Police have their hands full dealing with it all.

But I am sure you are ok with all the illegals coming in, so let's not discuss the influx of illegal guns, drugs, etc...And the stress to local law enforcement to deal with a problem Brandon does not care about because it is not on his door step yet.

He also said the local population is scared and they are arming themselves, that means more guns in circulation because the public knows Police can't protect them. One way for the public to not want guns is to provide a safe environment.

Yeah, it is a perfect place for the safety of children.
 
Really? Offices with 100+ employees? Both the Hertz offices were that way all the way back in 2000. Hobby Lobby's corporate office is that way. IRS building is that way. Dell call center. National Forecasting center in Norman. Heck, try going in a side or back door at the post office or a bank. These places funnel everyone to the front door where you are immediately greeted by someone, many times with security. No, it doesn't stop every motivated killer, but no solution does that. But it would deter some. Dylan Roof thought he'd be able to escape in the confusion by 'looking like the other students'. But if his first engagement is with armed security rather than unarmed students, then lives are probably going to be saved if the event isn't deferred altogether.

Much easier to design a new building with that in mind than it is to retrofit an existing building and turn it into that.
 
Easy? Recruitment, training and retention of law enforcement (bilingual a +) is easy???

Effective? Maybe, but debatable…

Cost efficient? Not seeing that at all…how do you envision this being cheaper or perhaps just a break-even???



carry on

Go play wit yourself, the adults are talking.
 
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21 people killed by a man who was a resident of the town since he was a child. But, let's blame illegal immigrants. GMAFB
Why not blame illegal immigrants? What's the difference in blaming this on the NRA and its supporters vs. blaming this on illegal immigrants? I mean who put the thought in his head to go shoot up a school? The NRA didn't do that.
 
I heard an interesting proposal this morning on the radio. Some guy called in and was talking about putting police sub precincts in schools where feasible or close to schools when it's not. Would be an easy, effective and cost efficient deterrent. Thought it was good out of the box thinking that would be interesting to look at.
THere it is, have a police department in every school, lol.

I wonder who has never been entrusted with a public position? Have you ever been called upon to plan or implement any public policy? On any level? Besides handing out/sniffing jockstraps?
 
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Not what I said. You are triggered SO easily.
Guilty. When 19 ten/eleven year olds are murdered in school, it triggers me.
My impression of his point was the more bad actors and more criminal activity in an area leads to more and the Police have their hands full dealing with it all.
Sounds like that is completely unrelated to what happened yesterday. Trying to connect the two is BS, IMO.
But I am sure you are ok with all the illegals coming in, so let's not discuss the influx of illegal guns, drugs, etc...And the stress to local law enforcement to deal with a problem Brandon does not care about because it is not on his door step yet.
Different topic. Irrelevant in this case. Not sure why you think any US citizen would be OK with those things.
He also said the local population is scared and they are arming themselves, that means more guns in circulation because the public knows Police can't protect them.
Completely irrelevant in this case. False equivalency.
 
THere it is, have a police department in every school, lol.

I wonder who has never been entrusted with a public position? Have you ever been called upon to plan or implement any public policy? On any level? Besides handing out/sniffing jockstraps?

I was wondering when the I hate police crowd would catch on.
 
Guilty. When 19 ten/eleven year olds are murdered in school, it triggers me.

Sounds like that is completely unrelated to what happened yesterday. Trying to connect the two is BS, IMO.

Different topic. Irrelevant in this case. Not sure why you think any US citizen would be OK with those things.

Completely irrelevant in this case. False equivalency.
The whatabouting is priceless.

The conservatives know this is wrapped around their neck like an anchor. They've had forever to do something about it and just obstruct and keep letting this happen. It's getting to be a heluva political issue for them. Watch the clones push all the narratives -- but illegals! But trannies!
 
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Ah. So now we have morphed from "lock the doors and post a guard" to "lock the doors and post 2 guards". We are really making progress.

Did you know that Greg Abbot said that the state of Texas spent 6 million dollars trying to "harden" Texas schools and prevent these things from happening? Wow. 6 million dollars! That's approximately $60,000 per school. That should buy a lot of door locks. All is well.
I'm not offering a solution Been, I'm making a statement. You can do with it what you will. Fact remains one person with a gun is target, two is a deterrent. Thanks for your attempt at flailing around and waiving your arms for your solution to the problem, but I can say it's actually less helpful than $60,000 spent per school. Congratulations you are falling into the trap that happens every time and proving my point that based on the rhetoric nothing is going to change. Give yourself a pat on the back.
 
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Anyone living in south Texas right now feels like they need a gun because of the illegals crossing their property at night and no telling what kind of people are in getting in. That psychology creates fear and hate.

All of you Libs would NEVER live within 5 miles of the border if you were honest. It is probably more like 300 miles. And if you owned property within 5 miles you would be making love to an AR rifle every night. Particularly if you had a wife and kids.

I have no problem with sensible gun laws, but the fact is, Libs would not exchange enforcing the border for it. Why? Because they want to turn Texas in to a blue state. Any bets more than twenty people have died as a result of all the illegals infected with COVID brought across the border and never tested? How about the child trafficking? How about the Fentanyl coming across the border? How many have died from that? Far more than 20.

This is the hypocrisy of the Libs, you politicized everything for votes, you turn a blind eye to policies you allow that create massive death in this country.

I dare you to challenge your Dim leadership to enforce the border and offer Reps a fair deal on gun control.

It will never happen, you want your death and your votes.
 
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If someone’s name is Salvador Ramos, or anything randomly Latin-originated…

he must’ve been born south of the border…

fvckin illegals…all of em…


Deport, deport, deport...



All better now…



Carry on
 
Guilty. When 19 ten/eleven year olds are murdered in school, it triggers me.

Sounds like that is completely unrelated to what happened yesterday. Trying to connect the two is BS, IMO.

Different topic. Irrelevant in this case. Not sure why you think any US citizen would be OK with those things.

Completely irrelevant in this case. False equivalency.
When you get triggered by the illegals coming across EVERY DAY bringing death, drugs, and child trafficking in to this country EVERY DAY I will know this is no longer faux outrage.

The irony is that the Hispanic population that is here from Mexico legally KNOW WTH is coming across the Border and want it stopped. They wanted to leave it behind. The Hispanic population as a demographic is the single largest demographic that is polling the worst (largest drop) with Dims since the last election. There is a reason. They don't want Texas or anywhere else in this country turned in to Mexico.
 
When you get triggered by the illegals coming across EVERY DAY bringing death, drugs, and child trafficking in to this country EVERY DAY I will know this is no longer faux outrage.

The irony is that the Hispanic population this here from Mexico legally KNOW WTH is coming across the Border and want it stopped. They wanted to leave it behind. The Hispanic population as demographic is the single largest demographic that is polling the worst (largest drop) with Dims since the last election. There is a reason. They don't want Texas or anywhere else in this country turned in to Mexico.

Si’…Salvador Ramos…de Mexico’…
 
Anyone living in south Texas right now feels like they the need a gun because of the illegals crossing their property at night and no telling what kind of people are in getting in. That psychology creates fear and hate.

All of you Libs would NEVER live within 5 miles of the border if you were honest. It is probably more like 300 miles. And if you owned property within 5 miles you would be making love to an AR rifle every night. Particularly if you had a wife and kids.

I have no problem with sensible gun laws, but the fact is, Libs would not exchange enforcing the border for it. Why? Because they want to turn Texas in to a blue state. Any bets more than twenty people have died as a result of all the illegals infected with COVID brought across the border and never tested? How about the child trafficking? How about the Fentanyl coming across the border? How many have died from that? Far more than 20.

This is the hypocrisy of the Libs, you politicized everything for votes, you turn a blind eye to policies you allow that create massive death in this country.

I dare you to challenge your Dim leadership to enforce the border and offer Reps a fair deal on gun control.

It will never happen, you want your death and your votes.
but what about the illegals!!! F those little kids and teachers! We need to focus on the illegals!
 
When you get triggered by the illegals coming across EVERY DAY bringing death, drugs, and child trafficking in to this country EVERY DAY I will know this is no longer faux outrage.

The irony is that the Hispanic population that is here from Mexico legally KNOW WTH is coming across the Border and want it stopped. They wanted to leave it behind. The Hispanic population as a demographic is the single largest demographic that is polling the worst (largest drop) with Dims since the last election. There is a reason. They don't want Texas or anywhere else in this country turned in to Mexico.
but what about the illegals!!! F those little kids and teachers! We need to focus on the illegals!
 
but what about the illegals!!! F those little kids and teachers! We need to focus on the illegals!
I offered a Political solution to 2 problems that cause death. And you make fun of it. Got it. You want your death and your votes.

You want tribalism. I want to see either a Dim or Rep put this out there as a political solution to all of the death being caused, let’s see who values life over votes.

You are morally bankrupt, all lives matter.
 
Really? Offices with 100+ employees? Both the Hertz offices were that way all the way back in 2000. Hobby Lobby's corporate office is that way. IRS building is that way. Dell call center. National Forecasting center in Norman. Heck, try going in a side or back door at the post office or a bank. These places funnel everyone to the front door where you are immediately greeted by someone, many times with security. No, it doesn't stop every motivated killer, but no solution does that. But it would deter some. Dylan Roof thought he'd be able to escape in the confusion by 'looking like the other students'. But if his first engagement is with armed security rather than unarmed students, then lives are probably going to be saved if the event isn't deferred altogether.
Yeah no doubt almost all corporate offices I have been in have had a rent a cop or two and turnstile you have to badge into, but those rent a cops aren't paid to be heroes they are paid to keep solicitors out.
 
Yeah no doubt almost all corporate offices I have been in have had a rent a cop or two and turnstile you have to badge into, but those rent a cops aren't paid to be heroes they are paid to keep solicitors out.
They would also be outgunned by a dude carrying an AR-15.
 
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