Reading a lot of stuff about the Methodist Church and its stance on homosexuality

[SUPERPOKES]

The worldwide Methodist Church recently, by a narrow margin, voted to maintain its stance on refusing to allow gays to serve as clergy. In Missouri, a lesbian couple is upset that the Methodist church voted to maintain the “traditional“ stance that homosexuality is a sin.

In a story I read in the St. Louis Post Dispatch, the couple - members of the Methodist church - are upset about the vote and feel that the church is wrongly not being inclusive. One member of the couple said this: “The Bible is inspired by God, but ultimately it is written by man. I know for me, the God I believe in is one that believes that love is love and that we should love our fellow man.”

This is the problem with the argument of the gay community: they want to interpret the Bible - even change the Bible - to fit today’s ideas of what’s right and what’s wrong. They can’t grasp the idea of “love the sinner, hate the sin” because they want to deny that the Bible - and thus God - says the homosexuality is a sin. We are all sinners. But there are those in today’s society who deny their own sin.

This is the problem I have with the gay community. They want to take what i believe to be is morally wrong, and tell me - and my children - that it’s NOT morally wrong because it’s okay by today’s standards. They want to change the Bible to fit their own parameters. To the gay community, live and let live - even acceptance - is not good enough. It has to be a celebration of their lifestyle.

Homosexuality and the Methodist Church

Signs a Church is becoming Progressive

Normalizing sin

 

[2012Bearcat]

What is it with people on the left? Thier typical MO, if the law, precedent, societal norms or in this case the Bible do not align with their perverted thinking everything must change to support them and to hell with anyone or anything that does not agree.
When they talk about inclusion what they mean is bow down to their way of thinking, agree with them or they will do everything in their power to punish and ostracize those not in agreement with them.

 

[SUPERPOKES]

I’ll sum things up by saying this: I’ll be a lot more accepting of gays/homosexuals when those that are gay/homosexuals accept that what they are doing is a sin.

 

[Ponca Dan]

I’ll sum things up by saying this: I’ll be a lot more accepting of gays/homosexuals when those that are gay/homosexuals accept that what they are doing is a sin.

I’m not a Christian, don’t know much about the Bible. I’m sure somewhere in the Bible someone says gay sex is a sin. But does it say why it’s a sin?

 

[LAY THE WOODY]

I’m not a Christian, don’t know much about the Bible. I’m sure somewhere in the Bible someone says gay sex is a sin. But does it say why it’s a sin?

Member Rosie O'Donnell?

 

[22LR]

I’m not a Christian, don’t know much about the Bible. I’m sure somewhere in the Bible someone says gay sex is a sin. But does it say why it’s a sin?

The "knowledge of good and evil" is in our DNA (Genesis 3:22). Even without the Bible, you already know the answer to your question.

Everybody knows.

 

[Ponca Dan]

The "knowledge of good and evil" is in our DNA (Genesis 3:22). Even without the Bible, you already know the answer to your question.

Everybody knows.

Is that the extent of the Bible saying *why* homosexuality is a sin? That seems a little cryptic to me. So we’re all born knowing beforehand which deeds are sinful and which are not? If that’s the case what do we need the Bible for? I’ve always accepted the “blank slate” theory and our moral compass is taught to us through learning and experience.

 

[22LR]

Is that the extent of the Bible saying *why* homosexuality is a sin? That seems a little cryptic to me. So we’re all born knowing beforehand which deeds are sinful and which are not? If that’s the case what do we need the Bible for? I’ve always accepted the “blank slate” theory and our moral compass is taught to us through learning and experience.

You're being stupid.
That isn't what I said.
Not even close.

 

[soonerinlOUisiana]

I’m a Christian, but I find homosexuals to be vile and disgusting because they’re unnatural. Normal men don’t fvck where another man shits. Really not that difficult to understand, unless you’re intrinsically disordered (ie. fvcked in the head).

 

[Ponca Dan]

I’m a Christian, but I find homosexuals to be vile and disgusting because they’re unnatural. Normal men don’t fvck where another man shits. Really not that difficult to understand, unless you’re intrinsically disordered (ie. fvcked in the head).

I’m not a Christian, but in my experience almost every homosexual I’ve known has seemed a little weird, I guess I’d use the word “abnormal,” wired differently from the rest of us. But I’m not clear *why* Christianity considers it a sin. I would think a sin is something that harms others, and I don’t see that kind of harm in a homosexual act. I was hoping someone who professes to be a Christian could steer me to the place or places in the Bible that explain the logic in why it’s a sin.

 

[Ponca Dan]

You're being stupid.
That isn't what I said.
Not even close.

Yes, I’m sure I’m being stupid. I thought that was what you were saying.

 

[2012Bearcat]

I’m not a Christian, but in my experience almost every homosexual I’ve known has seemed a little weird, I guess I’d use the word “abnormal,” wired differently from the rest of us. But I’m not clear *why* Christianity considers it a sin. I would think a sin is something that harms others, and I don’t see that kind of harm in a homosexual act. I was hoping someone who professes to be a Christian could steer me to the place or places in the Bible that explain the logic in why it’s a sin.

You don't? Aids, Monkey Pox, blown out backside, higher healthcare cost.

 

[Ponca Dan]

You don't? Aids, Monkey Pox, blown out backside, higher healthcare cost.

All of that is possible via heterosexual sex as well. Is there anywhere in the Bible that says explicitly “homosexual sex is a sin AND this is WHY it is a sin?” I’m sorry if I’m putting anyone on the spot here, it was never my intention. I just thought when you consider the amount of vitriol against homosexuals written on this board someone would know why. I do understand that a lot of the hostility comes from the over the top activists who are disgustingly in our faces that we’d better accept them for what they are. But I suspect most gays are like the rest of us (outside their sexual deviancy), just going along to get along, and you wouldn’t know or suspect them of being gay if it weren’t for their “weirdness.”

 

[Rdcldad]

it’s always the same on this topic

you brought my employer into this

oh ya i brought my employer into this

 

[2012Bearcat]

All of that is possible via heterosexual sex as well. Is there anywhere in the Bible that says explicitly “homosexual sex is a sin AND this is WHY it is a sin?” I’m sorry if I’m putting anyone on the spot here, it was never my intention. I just thought when you consider the amount of vitriol against homosexuals written on this board someone would know why. I do understand that a lot of the hostility comes from the over the top activists who are disgustingly in our faces that we’d better accept them for what they are. But I suspect most gays are like the rest of us (outside their sexual deviancy), just going along to get along, and you wouldn’t know or suspect them of being gay if it weren’t for their “weirdness.”

Possible? Yes. Prevalent, not in any way.

I'm not a religious guy by any means and you will seldom see me citing much of anything out of the Bible. IMO the bible is a how to guide to live a life that is good for the world and society.

 

[AC2020]

In the Bible, heterosexual sex (outside of marriage) is a sin as well.

No one wants to talk about that one, however.

 

[Ponca Dan]

Possible? Yes. Prevalent, not in any way.

I'm not a religious guy by any means and you will seldom see me citing much of anything out of the Bible. IMO the bible is a how to guide to live a life that is good for the world and society.

Me, too! There is a great deal about Christian ethics I find worth practicing. However I don’t understand *why* two people of the same gender being sexually attracted to each other is sinful. I’m wondering where in the Bible it explains why God says it’s a sin.

 

[Ponca Dan]

In the Bible, heterosexual sex (outside of marriage) is a sin as well.

No one wants to talk about that one, however.

I don’t know the answer to that one either. I suppose it has to do with it being a betrayal of trust. Assuming, of course, that the one being betrayed cares.

 

[SUPERPOKES]

In the Bible, heterosexual sex (outside of marriage) is a sin as well.

No one wants to talk about that one, however.

You’ve hit upon a great point that is missed among many in today’s society. There are a lot of things that the Bible considers sin which, by many in today’s society who don’t know the Word, aren’t even aware of some things that are actually sins, according to the Bible.

For instance, many don’t realize that working on the Sabbath (Sunday) is considered a sin (this is why Chik fil A and Hobby Lobby is closed on Sunday). This type of thing is taken for granted in today’s world, especially as more people live in the city versus the country or small towns. I’m reminded of this when i see the Andy Griffith Show episode where Opie is bartering with a friend after church and Andy reminds him “no trading on Sunday.”

My point? Things that used to be obvious sin - including cheating on your spouse or premarital sex - are socially acceptable today (at least more so than used to be) and people who say it’s wrong are called old fashioned.

Of course, as the years go by, the more unbelievable things that used to be clear sins - abortion and homosexuality come to mind for me - the more acceptable they are becoming in society. It makes me cringe at what will be acceptable 50 years from now that is unfathomable in today’s society.

 

[Ostatedchi]

For ALL have sinned and come short... This obsession on focusing on homosexual sex shows your bias and not anything regarding actual sin or Christ's teachings.

If people guilty of all other manor of sins can be ministers in the church, what makes someone guilty of the sin of homosexuality any less worthy of the pulpit?

 

[SUPERPOKES]

For ALL have sinned and come short... This obsession on focusing on homosexual sex shows your bias and not anything regarding actual sin or Christ's teachings.

If people guilty of all other manor of sins can be ministers in the church, what makes someone guilty of the sin of homosexuality any less worthy of the pulpit?

Do they even acknowledge that what they are doing is a sin? If so, do they try to turn away from the sin or do they continue to openly and unapologetically commit the sin (Jesus told the prostitute “Go, and sin no more.“)

 

[Ostatedchi]

Do they even acknowledge that what they are doing is a sin? If so, do they try to turn away from the sin or do they openly continue to commit the sin (Jesus told the prostitute “Go, and sin no more.“)

Is it your contention that Methodist preachers don't sin once ordained? If not, what's the difference?

 

[trapped_in_tx]

For ALL have sinned and come short... This obsession on focusing on homosexual sex shows your bias and not anything regarding actual sin or Christ's teachings.

If people guilty of all other manor of sins can be ministers in the church, what makes someone guilty of the sin of homosexuality any less worthy of the pulpit?

Everyone is guilty of sin. Not everyone is repentant of that sin, nor is everyone willing to acknowledge it as sin.

If you are unrepentant of sin (which includes denial that a behavior is sinful) you are to be removed from Christian fellowship, let alone leadership, in the hopes that you come to your senses and repent. At which point, you are restored to fellowship. Leadership is a more nuanced conversation.

Sadly there are plenty of Christians and supposedly Christian churches who not only don’t practice this behavior, but don’t even acknowledge that it’s prescribed by scripture.

 

[Ponca Dan]

All this moralizing gibberish and no one can point to the place in the Bible where it explains WHY homosexuality is a sin. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?

 

[iasooner2000]

See Sodom and Gomorrah for the deets

 

[SUPERPOKES]

Is it your contention that Methodist preachers don't sin once ordained? If not, what's the difference?

If they are like myself, they admit their sin to God through prayer, ask for forgiveness (forgive us or trespasses) and ask for the strength to turn away from the sin in the future (lead us not into temptation).

 

[Ostatedchi]

Everyone is guilty of sin. Not everyone is repentant of that sin, nor is everyone willing to acknowledge it as sin.

If you are unrepentant of sin (which includes denial that a behavior is sinful) you are to be removed from Christian fellowship, let alone leadership, in the hopes that you come to your senses and repent. At which point, you are restored to fellowship. Leadership is a more nuanced conversation.

Sadly there are plenty of Christians and supposedly Christian churches who not only don’t practice this behavior, but don’t even acknowledge that it’s prescribed by scripture.

Didn't really answer the question. If a sin is a sin is a sin, why is the sin of homosexuality the one that precludes someone from being a pastor in the Methodist church?

 

[Ostatedchi]

If they are like myself, they admit their sin to God through prayer, ask for forgiveness (forgive us or trespasses) and ask for the strength to turn away from the sin in the future (lead us not into temptation).

And if a homosexual did all that? Could they then be a pastor?

 

[SUPERPOKES]

All this moralizing gibberish and no one can point to the place in the Bible where it explains WHY homosexuality is a sin. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?

Mainly in the Book of Leviticus, but there are other places.

The Bible and homosexuality

 

[Ostatedchi]

Mainly in the Book of Leviticus, but there are other places.

The Bible and homosexuality

Yet we no longer live under the old covenant since Christ's death and resurrection. I'm guessing you don't abide by all the old Mosaic laws.

 

[SUPERPOKES]

And if a homosexual did all that? Could they then be a pastor?

If they admit they are sinning and try to turn away from it, I’d say yes. But in today’s world, but I don't see too much of that. In fact, it’s quite the opposite. Acceptance of the sin is more what we’re hearing from most folks, especially in schools. But it’s not just homosexuality, it’s a lot of other things as well.

 

[Ostatedchi]

If they admit they are sinning and try to turn away from it, I’d say yes. But in today’s world, but I don't see too much of that. In fact, it’s quite the opposite. Acceptance of the sin is more what we’re hearing from most folks, especially in schools. But it’s not just homosexuality, it’s a lot of other things as well.

If you say yes to that, then why the automatic denial?

 

[22LR]

All this moralizing gibberish and no one can point to the place in the Bible where it explains WHY homosexuality is a sin. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?

[ ] I don't know what the Bible says about it.

[ ] I do know, and I will engage in a discussion with Dan on this topic.

[ x ] I do know, but won't waste my time debating with such a trolling eristic twit.

 

[Ponca Dan]

[ ] I don't know what the Bible says about it.

[ ] I do know, and I will engage in a discussion with Dan on this topic.

[ x ] I do know, but won't waste my time debating with such a trolling eristic twit.

My goodness you trigger easily.

 

[AC2020]

All this moralizing gibberish and no one can point to the place in the Bible where it explains WHY homosexuality is a sin. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?

Here is a great site for the kind of questions you have, if you are really interested in biblical answers.

gotquestions.org

Here's a link sort of answering your inquiry.

Why is sexual immorality described as sin against your own body (1 Corinthians 6:18)? | GotQuestions.org

Why is sexual immorality described as sin against your own body? What is the meaning of 1 Corinthians 6:18?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[trapped_in_tx]

Didn't really answer the question. If a sin is a sin is a sin, why is the sin of homosexuality the one that precludes someone from being a pastor in the Methodist church?

Actually, I did. Unless you are trying to set some sort of debate trap I’m not seeing.

I’ll rephrase my answer once, then I’m out.

Any unrepentant sin precludes someone from fellowship, and thus obviously leadership, in any Christian church that claims to follow Biblical teaching.

If any church chooses not to follow that prescription, in whole or in part, then they are not following Biblical teaching.

If you are prodding me to speak for the Methodist church, I obviously cannot do that. Based on my observations, I would submit that the Methodist church does not follow Biblical teaching regardless of where they come down on this one issue.

 

[Ponca Dan]

Mainly in the Book of Leviticus, but there are other places.

The Bible and homosexuality

Thank you, @SUPERPOKES, for the link. I read every one of the quotes but none of them gave a specific reason for why homosexuality is a sin. The closet thing I could find were proclamations that gays defile their own bodies. But that seems pretty weak as an answer. Men defile their own bodies in war and yet preachers regularly consecrate those who participate. Summarizing the quotes the best Biblical answer I can come with for why homosexuality is a sin is because God said so. Is that how you read it?

 

[Ostatedchi]

Actually, I did. Unless you are trying to set some sort of debate trap I’m not seeing.

I’ll rephrase my answer once, then I’m out.

Any unrepentant sin precludes someone from fellowship, and thus obviously leadership, in any Christian church that claims to follow Biblical teaching.

If any church chooses not to follow that prescription, in whole or in part, then they are not following Biblical teaching.

If you are prodding me to speak for the Methodist church, I obviously cannot do that. Based on my observations, I would submit that the Methodist church does not follow Biblical teaching regardless of where they come down on this one issue.

I'm not setting a trap. Let me ask one last hypothetical and see if this would pass your test for qualify as a pastor.

A man who is physically and sexually attracted to other men; but has never acted on those desires (remains celibate); recognizes those desires as sinful and asks God to help him turn away from those thoughts; yet, continues to have those desires. So he's repentant and trying to not sin and succeeding at least in controlling his actions if not his thoughts.

Would that person be eligible to lead a church despite their gayness?

 

[Ponca Dan]

Here is a great site for the kind of questions you have, if you are really interested in biblical answers.

gotquestions.org

Here's a link sort of answering your inquiry.

Why is sexual immorality described as sin against your own body (1 Corinthians 6:18)? | GotQuestions.org

Why is sexual immorality described as sin against your own body? What is the meaning of 1 Corinthians 6:18?

www.gotquestions.org

Thank you, @AC2020, for the link. It gives a clearer interpretation than the other link, but again it comes back to defiling one’s body. See my comment above.

 

[trapped_in_tx]

I'm not setting a trap. Let me ask one last hypothetical and see if this would pass your test for qualify as a pastor.

A man who is physically and sexually attracted to other men; but has never acted on those desires (remains celibate); recognizes those desires as sinful and asks God to help him turn away from those thoughts; yet, continues to have those desires. So he's repentant and trying to not sin and succeeding at least in controlling his actions if not his thoughts.

Would that person be eligible to lead a church despite their gayness?

Kinda reads like a trap.

I would advise anyone that has major struggles with sexual sin, lust, porn, etc to not even consider leadership in the church. The struggle will only become more difficult in that leadership position.

If I was an elder at my church (I’m not), I would advise my fellow elders that such a person is a huge risk to be in leadership and should not be allowed to serve in that way, but anyone suggesting they should not be in fellowship I would disagree with.

Unfortunately these situations are often very nuanced and complicated. I am very well acquainted with someone at our church who is a former lesbian. If you are truly interested, sometime I can try to relate more of that situation or perhaps even put you in contact with her. She’s very vocal about what has and is happening as a result of her past decisions. But for now I have to bail due to a packed evening