ADVERTISEMENT

Political correctness in Wrestling

oberebo

Heisman Candidate
Gold Member
Oct 30, 2005
9,457
1,578
113
Shawnee,OK
In my opinion wrestling fans are either compelled to remain silent or at the very least tone down their criticism or dislike for or apathy for women's wrestling in general and for Greco-Roman wrestling in particular. The Junior Worlds started in Brazil on August 11th, first with Greco-Roman wrestling and then for the past two days with Greco. Flowrestling, USA wrestling, Intermat and other sites have given us the action and the results, pathetic as they are. The bright side to this coverage is that very few wrestling fans seem to care. Name one champion World or otherwise in either sport and most fans would be hard pressed to come up with an answer.

The reason is very simple, most wrestling fans do not give a rodent behind about either of these two disciplines. I hear and read all of the hype about the growth of women's wrestling and I will give you that the women who compete in this sport are very dedicated and skilled. However, when it comes to fan base you would think women would be all over this sport and not surprisingly, they are not. Equal opportunity raises its ugly head and becomes the rallying cry but in sports like wrestling,boxing,football there just is no real market.
Think about your wives, girlfriends, sisters, aunts, nieces etc and I expect if you are like me that you do not know any female relative, female friend or acquaintance who is a fan or even cares whether they have these sports or not. Of course if you have a female relative or acquaintance that does participate and or gets the benefit of a college scholarship then your mindset is different. I do not begrudge women getting scholarships for whatever they excel in but I posit that even if we had the best female wrestlers in the world that there would be no great groundswell of women attracted to this sport.

As far as Greco Roman wrestling goes it comes down to what you are used to watching. I would rather watch grass grow than watch a Greco match. To me it is the epitome of boredom. It is like eating crab legs to me as it is too much effort spent for very little reward. However, I know it is popular in a lot of the world and places like Iran and other middle eastern countries and many European countries like it. More power to those countries is what I say. We either need to spend more time and effort and money developing a representative Greco team or just let the other countries get on with it. I doubt I would ever be a fan of the sport. I think there is a reason why there are no duals or state tournaments featuring Greco but if the supporters can make a case for it let them try.

The opinions expressed above are from one fan of wrestling only. I guess you could say some of the above is from the frustration of being 5 days into the Junior Worlds and not seeing what I want to watch which is freestyle wrestling. If anyone takes offense at my words please feel free to complain and I would like to hear from other fans about their feelings in regard to these two disciplines.
 
As a Democrat, didn't think you would know much about Political correctness :p

Joking aside, I don't care for either other than maybe during the Olympics if someone is going for a medal.
 
As a Democrat, didn't think you would know much about Political correctness :p

Joking aside, I don't care for either other than maybe during the Olympics if someone is going for a medal.
I think there are three USA wrestlers going for Bronze tonight as all three lost to Japanese wrestlers in the semis.
 
I respectfully disagree my, friend - perhaps for different reasons. First and foremost, if we believe that wrestling teaches valuable life lessons - things like self-reliance, discipline and perseverance - why would we only want our sons to learn those lessons? Shouldn't our daughters also be tough? I must admit that after all of these years of taking my daughters and grand daughters (with another on the way) to wrestling meets, none has wanted to wrestle. However, I believe in and support the growth of girls' and women's wrestling. That's one of the reasons that Wrestling for Life offers financial assistance to Female Elite Wrestling - a team of the best female wrestlers in Iowa, one of whom is wrestling for bronze tonight at junior worlds.

As far as fan appeal - if you do not put skill level into the equation, I think you can find the wrestling quite exciting. Women get after it. Watch all of Adeline Gray's matches from the 2014 worlds. There's some good stuff in there.
 
I respectfully disagree my, friend - perhaps for different reasons. First and foremost, if we believe that wrestling teaches valuable life lessons - things like self-reliance, discipline and perseverance - why would we only want our sons to learn those lessons? Shouldn't our daughters also be tough? I must admit that after all of these years of taking my daughters and grand daughters (with another on the way) to wrestling meets, none has wanted to wrestle. However, I believe in and support the growth of girls' and women's wrestling. That's one of the reasons that Wrestling for Life offers financial assistance to Female Elite Wrestling - a team of the best female wrestlers in Iowa, one of whom is wrestling for bronze tonight at junior worlds.

As far as fan appeal - if you do not put skill level into the equation, I think you can find the wrestling quite exciting. Women get after it. Watch all of Adeline Gray's matches from the 2014 worlds. There's some good stuff in there.
I would argue that wrestling is not the path for women in learning life skills and lessons. I agree that what little I have seen of women's wrestling that the competitors are tough however I do not think you would ever get enough women to be interested in even watching much less wrestling to enhance these life skills. I do not support the growth of women's wrestling but that is really a moot point to me since I do not believe it would ever acquire a fan base.
I proudly support your program, Wrestling for life. Our daughters can learn their life lessons, self reliance, discipline and perseverance in other ways and they do . I do not want my daughter or grand daughters and yes great grand daughters to be the next Rhonda Rousey, in some ways I am saddened that there is a first "Rhonda Rousey".
 
Greco needs to go... Need to add more weights to Olympic freestyle.
 
As a Democrat, didn't think you would know much about Political correctness :p

Joking aside, I don't care for either other than maybe during the Olympics if someone is going for a medal.
Goose, I need to take the Donald Trump course in Political correctness.:rolleyes:
 
I just came from a power lifting meet and it was not entertaining. Should it be dropped also? If the purpose of wrestling is to entertain you guys, then it should probably go.

However, if the purpose of wrestling is to allow people to follow their dreams and give them a goal to follow and work towards, then it should stay. I think the purpose of wrestling is for the athlete and the lessons and development that occurs during their career.

People who think the beauty of our sport depends on the fan appeal are missing the point. IMHO The reason a lot of us do not bash Greco and women's wrestling is because we do not want to belittle someone who has their own dream and they are following it. Who are we to criticize them?
 
  • Like
Reactions: derek_state
I just came from a power lifting meet and it was not entertaining. Should it be dropped also? If the purpose of wrestling is to entertain you guys, then it should probably go.

However, if the purpose of wrestling is to allow people to follow their dreams and give them a goal to follow and work towards, then it should stay. I think the purpose of wrestling is for the athlete and the lessons and development that occurs during their career.

People who think the beauty of our sport depends on the fan appeal are missing the point. IMHO The reason a lot of us do not bash Greco and women's wrestling is because we do not want to belittle someone who has their own dream and they are following it. Who are we to criticize them?
Beauty has to be seen to be appreciated which is my point. It is not seen and therefore can not be appreciated by more than the few supporters of the sport. I do appreciate your opinion but will stick with mine and yes it is my right to criticize them just as it is your to support them. There are many paths to reach independence, self reliance and life lessons but women's wrestling is a poor choice since it reaches so few. One more thing, what is wrong with going to see highly skilled athletes in action and be entertained. You said you went to a power lifting meet and it was not entertaining. If you are power lifting to get stronger than it is a good thing and thus it has to be satisfying to you to do it and thus in some way entertaining. If you continued to go and it did not help your development and strength then you are wasting your time and it is not entertaining. Women who participate in the sport should continue. I never argued for the abolishment of the sport entirely but they piggyback on men's wrestling as they could NEVER financially support it by themselves and they are taking revenue from men's sports.
Many of us support the arts like the theater, Art museums etc. but we do not expect support from those who do not appreciate the arts. I am not being snobbish and if the arts are not your cup of tea then by all means do not support or attend those events and no one should belittle you. In this world what is popular is supported and what is not falls by the wayside. If you can create a groundswell for power lifting or women's wrestling or Greco then do it but if you can not do it on the merit of the sport or endeavor then do not expect me to support it.
 
I got the impression you were saying that we should do away with the sport. That is what I object to. If I misunderstood, then my apologies. If you do not support it or like it, I can respect it.

As far as piggy backing goes, wrestlers have enough in common to compete together in different styles. I do not see that as a problem. Also, wrestling cannot support itself at the college level at many if not all schools. We do not want to get into a money discussion, because football and basketball carry a lot of the sports at the college level.
 
Beauty has to be seen to be appreciated which is my point. It is not seen and therefore can not be appreciated by more than the few supporters of the sport. I do appreciate your opinion but will stick with mine and yes it is my right to criticize them just as it is your to support them. There are many paths to reach independence, self reliance and life lessons but women's wrestling is a poor choice since it reaches so few. One more thing, what is wrong with going to see highly skilled athletes in action and be entertained. You said you went to a power lifting meet and it was not entertaining. If you are power lifting to get stronger than it is a good thing and thus it has to be satisfying to you to do it and thus in some way entertaining. If you continued to go and it did not help your development and strength then you are wasting your time and it is not entertaining. Women who participate in the sport should continue. I never argued for the abolishment of the sport entirely but they piggyback on men's wrestling as they could NEVER financially support it by themselves and they are taking revenue from men's sports.
Many of us support the arts like the theater, Art museums etc. but we do not expect support from those who do not appreciate the arts. I am not being snobbish and if the arts are not your cup of tea then by all means do not support or attend those events and no one should belittle you. In this world what is popular is supported and what is not falls by the wayside. If you can create a groundswell for power lifting or women's wrestling or Greco then do it but if you can not do it on the merit of the sport or endeavor then do not expect me to support it.
Many women make up part of the fan base for Men's wrestling. My daughter and Grand daughter spend the wrestling season with me in Gallagher Iba to support Cowboy wrestling and they are avid supporters. Lookleft, I guess we can just agree to disagree and you have valid points. Since this is y weekend to be critical I just watched Spencer Lee win his finals match in 48 seconds using a takedown and 4 leg laces, actually one leg lace as he just did not give up the hold and got three more. This is wrong in my opinion and something freestyle needs to change. The other wrestler would undoubtedly lost to Lee but he did not have a chance as Lee used one move to score eight points.
 
I wouldn't be opposed to see Greco dropped. More money, time and resources which are limited to the sport of wrestling could be spent on freestyle in my opinion.
 
I wouldn't be opposed to see Greco dropped. More money, time and resources which are limited to the sport of wrestling could be spent on freestyle in my opinion.
You can't drop Greco, while it might not be big in oklahoma or the U.S. it is a legitinate sport around the world. I'm not a huge biathalon fan or curling fan but people are. Any way we can have wrestling presented to the world I am a fan.
 
You can't drop Greco, while it might not be big in oklahoma or the U.S. it is a legitinate sport around the world. I'm not a huge biathalon fan or curling fan but people are. Any way we can have wrestling presented to the world I am a fan.

I get that but here in the US we have a limited amount of resources that in my opinion get divided between the two disciplines.

Freestyle/folkstyle is fighting for respect and trying to grow and I just think the more money, resources, effort and attention it can garner the better for the sport of wrestling.
 
Many women make up part of the fan base for Men's wrestling. My daughter and Grand daughter spend the wrestling season with me in Gallagher Iba to support Cowboy wrestling and they are avid supporters. Lookleft, I guess we can just agree to disagree and you have valid points. Since this is y weekend to be critical I just watched Spencer Lee win his finals match in 48 seconds using a takedown and 4 leg laces, actually one leg lace as he just did not give up the hold and got three more. This is wrong in my opinion and something freestyle needs to change. The other wrestler would undoubtedly lost to Lee but he did not have a chance as Lee used one move to score eight points.

Alright!! We do agree on one thing for sure. The rules of Freestyle need to be changes. Or should I say, that I would like to see them changed. I am not a fan of the tech fall. Let them wrestle the full 6 minutes or until there is a pin. Some of the best wresting happens when a guy gets desperate and actually tries to hit some moves. No ties or criteria either. Wrestle until someone wins, although I would be in favor of throwing a guy out for stalling.
I do not know what the answer is. Maybe you can only score 2 or 3 times in the same series with the same hold. Lets say you get a leg lace. You can only score back exposure 2 times with the same series. IF you go back on your feet, you can get a takedown and then score with the leg lace again.
Maybe you and I should be on the rules committee. :)
Also, I understand your points (I think). If I had to rank the sports I would put Men's freestyle way ahead of Women's freestyle and then Greco last as far as entertainment value. I do not rank any of them ahead of the other as far as value to the individual in their progress as a human or their path to growth. I am not sure how we got to where we are in this conversation, but I think we feel the same way about many of these things.
Thanks for your responses. It has been fun hashing this around with you.
 
Alright!! We do agree on one thing for sure. The rules of Freestyle need to be changes. Or should I say, that I would like to see them changed. I am not a fan of the tech fall. Let them wrestle the full 6 minutes or until there is a pin. Some of the best wresting happens when a guy gets desperate and actually tries to hit some moves. No ties or criteria either. Wrestle until someone wins, although I would be in favor of throwing a guy out for stalling.
I do not know what the answer is. Maybe you can only score 2 or 3 times in the same series with the same hold. Lets say you get a leg lace. You can only score back exposure 2 times with the same series. IF you go back on your feet, you can get a takedown and then score with the leg lace again.
Maybe you and I should be on the rules committee. :)
Also, I understand your points (I think). If I had to rank the sports I would put Men's freestyle way ahead of Women's freestyle and then Greco last as far as entertainment value. I do not rank any of them ahead of the other as far as value to the individual in their progress as a human or their path to growth. I am not sure how we got to where we are in this conversation, but I think we feel the same way about many of these things.
Thanks for your responses. It has been fun hashing this around with you.
Glad we agree. Greco Roman is a sport appreciated by the Europeans and teams from the middle east and it is not going to go away. It is the equivalent to me of wrestling with one arm behind your back although it may be more technical than freestyle as you have to turn your opponents minor errors into a takedown for you. However, the very technicality of it, while it can be appreciated, limits the action severely and thus I do not like it.
 
My opinion is if you cut Women's Freestyle and Greco Roman wrestling the money would not go to Freestyle and wrestling would just become smaller.
 
My opinion is if you cut Women's Freestyle and Greco Roman wrestling the money would not go to Freestyle and wrestling would just become smaller.
You have a good argument that the cutting of these two programs would not mean more money for freestyle. I can buy that argument but as I indicated Greco is realistically not going to be cut. It is a fact of life whether I like it or not. Wrestling would not get smaller if they cut women's freestyle IMO as taking nothing from something in my limited math skills just equals nothing. In some cases it might make wrestling bigger-case in-point might be Oklahoma City University wrestling where Archie has to split his coaching time between the men and the women but I do not think nor am I arguing for the abolition of either sport, just stating a preference.
 
I usually really enjoy coming to this board and reading the posts of some very reasonable, knowledgeable wrestling fans. Over the years, I’ve really come to respect and value the considered info on this board. Obe you’ve been a fundamental member of this community and a stalwart supporter of Cowboy wrestling and for that I value you, but I can’t think of a synopsized way to communicate how strongly I disagree with you, so I’ll do my best to lay it out in admittedly ridiculously long post. Please be patient with me. From what I gather, your major issues with women’s wrestling are as follows:

1. Women competing in wrestling does not teach them valuable life skills.

2. Women’s wrestling does not have a fan base, which means it is not valuable.

3. Due to lack of a fan base, women’s wrestling is sapping valuable resources from men’s freestyle wrestling.

1. I’ve lived all over the country and, while living on a military base in CA, met a girl at a high school wrestling practice where I was volunteering as a coach. We’ve been friends for years and I watched her grow from a successful wrestler on the CA freestyle circuit to an Olympian. Through my relationship with her, I’ve literally met hundreds of women, of all ages, who’ve been positively affected by the sport of women’s wrestling. When you say that wrestling is not the path for women to learn life skills and lessons, I can tell you from personal experience that you’re absolutely wrong. Certainly everyone is entitled to their opinion, and everyone’s path to those lessons is different, but to dismiss its efficacy because you don’t understand or agree is myopic. If it’s not the choice you would chose for your daughters or granddaughters, then I absolutely support your parental prerogative…power to the parent. But to marginalize the VALUE of an activity because it’s not your personal choice is flat out wrong.

2. What level of fan base makes a sport worth keeping around? God forbid college football or basketball fans adopt this attitude, because if they did it would mean the end of countless college wrestling programs. At the end of the day, for me, what makes wrestling, and wrestlers, great is sacrifice. If the tireless effort of our female wrestlers, from YMCA programs to the OTC, inspires just a handful of young girls to pursue something they otherwise would not have, then it’s worth it and I’ve not met a wrestler, male or female, that is not willing to sacrifice to provide that opportunity. I would argue that wrestling, in the wide world of competitive sports, is an anomaly. And by that I mean it consists of a relatively small core group of dedicated participants and fans and will never have a comparable fan base or the ensuing economic impact of larger sports. If that’s true, then female wrestlers know that struggle better than most of their male counterparts because they’ve been the anomaly within an anomaly for their entire lives….struggling to gain respect in a world that doesn’t recognize or value them. How, in good conscience, can we wholeheartedly support one and completely marginalize the other? In my opinion, their success equals our success. In fact, they are soldiers in the same foxhole, fighting the same adversary. For us to kick them out because we’ve been in the foxhole longer, seems flat out wrong.

3. To the real issue at hand. Resources. Does the inclusion of women’s wrestling equal the exclusion of male participants or declining support, financial or otherwise, for men’s competitive opportunities or somehow decrease the quality of the men’s experience. My answer is I don’t know. I’m sure I could find out if I did the research. There are probably studies out there I could reference. But the real point is, I don’t care. I’m a middle aged, relatively affluent white guy and recognize the incredible gifts I’ve been given because of the folks who came before me. It’s now my job to create those gifts and opportunities for the folks who are coming after me. If that means sacrificing a little of what I love in order for them to realize a dream I may not even have known existed, then I’m all for it. Again this goes back to sacrifice and what I feel wrestling is all about. I love men’s freestyle wrestling and I hate to see less weight classes. I hate for Coleman Scott to have to make that cut because he can’t compete at his more natural weight class. But you know what? I’ll bet you Coleman isn’t at home blaming it on the women. There should be room for everyone…and if there’s not, I’ll gladly sacrifice some of what I have in order for you to realize your dreams. That’s how I honor those who did it for me.

I’m sorry to have gone on and on about this, but I saw that girl from CA sacrifice so much, and suffer at the hands of so many, in order to achieve her dreams. From the concussions that came from other guys in the room who felt they had to literally hurt her before they let her off the mat to tournament organizers who made her hold weight for hours past the guys because they didn’t want her in the weigh in room and wouldn’t move a scale to the hallway. Unacceptable. Make room for her….it’s better for all of us.
 
  • Like
Reactions: oberebo
It was long but it was well written and heartfelt. I appreciate your passion and I am glad for your experiences with women's wrestling and the one female wrestler in particular. I don't go to or appreciate tiddly winks or horse shoes either whether performed by men or women. I do appreciate women's soccer and basketball and do watch those sports. These sports are supported by women and they have young girls who wish to emulate and become their heroes (heroines}. This is just not the case in women's wrestling. There are women who enjoy the sport but they are few and far between. I guess my point is this: IMHO we spend an inordinate amount of time on a sport that for the most part not only does not appeal to men but does not appeal to women either. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. All of this effort seems for naught. I sound like a misogynistic old codger and I really am not-well I am old and maybe an old codger but I love women of all types. However, you seem passionate in your support of the sport so maybe there is hope for it. I will not demonstrate against it but I will continue to ignore it. One thing I do disagree with in your statement is that my misogynistic opinion if shared by football and basketball fans would lead to the demise of wrestling. I disagree completely with this as what those fans think about wrestling would have no impact on our sport of wrestling. We are not nearly as large a fan base but we are passionate. I like football and basketball and baseball but a love wrestling. Wrestling has been on the decline attendance wise in the past thirty or forty years but the decline has leveled off and there are signs that the sport is actually growing again. Whether or not I support women's wrestling will not impact men's wrestling in any way.

I honor your opinion and your sentiments and see where you are coming from. I appreciate the chance to hear from people who disagree with me and you make great points. Thank you for your thoughts.
 
I am all for any sport that gives a young woman confidence. That is what women's wrestling does like so many other sports. I appreciate Oberebo and respect his opinion, but I am with NE Cowboy on this one.

My daughter found one of those sports that is not followed by the media and parlayed it into a college scholarship and it has moved her life in a positive manner. Young females need something other than beauty to give them value. We need them to be productive confident citizens of this country in the future.
 
I am all for any sport that gives a young woman confidence. That is what women's wrestling does like so many other sports. I appreciate Oberebo and respect his opinion, but I am with NE Cowboy on this one.

My daughter found one of those sports that is not followed by the media and parlayed it into a college scholarship and it has moved her life in a positive manner. Young females need something other than beauty to give them value. We need them to be productive confident citizens of this country in the future.
Sometimes I get carried away in making a point and this was the case late last night when I made the comment about "making a silk purse.... This was uncalled for and I apologize. OSUMatFan makes a good point that diversity is good and what I like or dislike is not really the point. Any individual male or female that has a passion and displays that passion in an admirable manner should be saluted. I acknowledge that and I believe that I have learned something from this discussion. Possibly my overall opinion of the sport has not fundamentally changed but we would not want a "cookie cutter" type of world where only where we cannot appreciate other's enthusiasms and dreams. Thanks for all of the input.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OSUMatFan
One more relatively short post before I step back into my usual role of learning from you guys. It takes a very brave and articulate individual to post his humble opinions on a topic like this and open himself up to critique. While most folks are happy to hide behind the anonymity of a message board and spout invectives, Obe respectfully and thoughtfully owned his ideas and wasn’t worried about subjecting himself to the often intimidating idea of changing. While we may not agree on this particular subject, that’s an example I can learn from. Well done Obe. Whether they wrestle or not, your daughters/granddaughters/great granddaughters are in good hands.
 
One more relatively short post before I step back into my usual role of learning from you guys. It takes a very brave and articulate individual to post his humble opinions on a topic like this and open himself up to critique. While most folks are happy to hide behind the anonymity of a message board and spout invectives, Obe respectfully and thoughtfully owned his ideas and wasn’t worried about subjecting himself to the often intimidating idea of changing. While we may not agree on this particular subject, that’s an example I can learn from. Well done Obe. Whether they wrestle or not, your daughters/granddaughters/great granddaughters are in good hands.
Thanks for the compliment but I give all credit to the mother of my four children, 8 grandchildren and 3.5 great grandchildren.
 
One more relatively short post before I step back into my usual role of learning from you guys. It takes a very brave and articulate individual to post his humble opinions on a topic like this and open himself up to critique. While most folks are happy to hide behind the anonymity of a message board and spout invectives, Obe respectfully and thoughtfully owned his ideas and wasn’t worried about subjecting himself to the often intimidating idea of changing. While we may not agree on this particular subject, that’s an example I can learn from. Well done Obe. Whether they wrestle or not, your daughters/granddaughters/great granddaughters are in good hands.
Yep, it can't be easy defying both popular opinion and political pressure. Kudos to you, Pops.

You stated there's just a lot of energy, an inordinate amount of energy that's spent on women's wrestling compared to what society (or just girls in general) could ever get out of it. And I don't disagree. We spend a ton of energy for what's really going to amount to only a handful of women in general (just my humble opinion).

But I say, so what? It's not my energy, and I'm surely not going to tell someone else what they should or shouldn't spend all their energy on. If it's their passion to spend all their energy helping to develop women's wrestling in this country, even if I can't see any real outcome for all that energy, it'd be wholly arrogant on my part to tell someone else to stop doing that. Plus, I think we can see that there are some women that are taking advantage of that energy.

Who's to say that won't pay dividends down the road and women's wrestling will explode in the future? Women's athletics is still in its infancy. Ask any female my age...most women's sports coaches were typically football or basketball coaches that were just waiting for their sport to start back up. Few actually gave a rat's behind if they were successful; they were just biding their time. Female athletes were ridiculed or called names for participating in sports. The opportunities for my daughters, compared to those in my time, is night and day. The emphasis on their success and development is simply staggering. I imagine women's wrestling will some day get to that stage as well.

You said there are other avenues for girls to learn the same virtues we try to instill into boys of the same age. Sure there are, to an extent. But why not wrestling as one of those avenues as well? And trust me, I'm 100% torn on whether I would want my daughter to wrestle (either my 12 or 10 year old). There are so many things I wish they could learn, things I think wrestling developed in me more than any other sport could have. I would love for them to have the opportunity experience and learn from those. And yet I don't want them to be hurt, or ridiculed by other wrestlers and parents just because she chose to do something they feel passionate about. I am thankful that I don't have to make that call. They're satisfied with going to watch wrestling with the family (ok...really they just want to go to Eskimo Joe's, but they put up with the wrestling so they can do that).

I'm not saying I am for or against women's wrestling. Just that I'm against telling someone else to stop pursuing what they want to do.
 
Yep, it can't be easy defying both popular opinion and political pressure. Kudos to you, Pops.

You stated there's just a lot of energy, an inordinate amount of energy that's spent on women's wrestling compared to what society (or just girls in general) could ever get out of it. And I don't disagree. We spend a ton of energy for what's really going to amount to only a handful of women in general (just my humble opinion).

But I say, so what? It's not my energy, and I'm surely not going to tell someone else what they should or shouldn't spend all their energy on. If it's their passion to spend all their energy helping to develop women's wrestling in this country, even if I can't see any real outcome for all that energy, it'd be wholly arrogant on my part to tell someone else to stop doing that. Plus, I think we can see that there are some women that are taking advantage of that energy.

Who's to say that won't pay dividends down the road and women's wrestling will explode in the future? Women's athletics is still in its infancy. Ask any female my age...most women's sports coaches were typically football or basketball coaches that were just waiting for their sport to start back up. Few actually gave a rat's behind if they were successful; they were just biding their time. Female athletes were ridiculed or called names for participating in sports. The opportunities for my daughters, compared to those in my time, is night and day. The emphasis on their success and development is simply staggering. I imagine women's wrestling will some day get to that stage as well.

You said there are other avenues for girls to learn the same virtues we try to instill into boys of the same age. Sure there are, to an extent. But why not wrestling as one of those avenues as well? And trust me, I'm 100% torn on whether I would want my daughter to wrestle (either my 12 or 10 year old). There are so many things I wish they could learn, things I think wrestling developed in me more than any other sport could have. I would love for them to have the opportunity experience and learn from those. And yet I don't want them to be hurt, or ridiculed by other wrestlers and parents just because she chose to do something they feel passionate about. I am thankful that I don't have to make that call. They're satisfied with going to watch wrestling with the family (ok...really they just want to go to Eskimo Joe's, but they put up with the wrestling so they can do that).

I'm not saying I am for or against women's wrestling. Just that I'm against telling someone else to stop pursuing what they want to do.
"I'm not saying I am for or against women's wrestling." You are wishy-washy but it is to be expected from a male who lives in a household with three females. Admit it, you have no opinion on anything until you are told what it is by one of these three persons. The oldest of these females would be a good wrestler as after all she pushes you all over the mat just by her steely-eyed stare.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: CowboyJD
For those who don't understand Greco-Roman outside of this nation's borders (yes, there are places that don't revolve around U.S. thinking)

Greco-Roman had MORE entries at the World Championships than Men's Freestyle did. Been that way for a while.

Sorry folks, it's more popular than you would like to believe.
 
For those who don't understand Greco-Roman outside of this nation's borders (yes, there are places that don't revolve around U.S. thinking)

Greco-Roman had MORE entries at the World Championships than Men's Freestyle did. Been that way for a while.

Sorry folks, it's more popular than you would like to believe.
Jason, I acknowledged that it is popular in other countries and I realize that there is a world outside of the United States. Soccer apparently is the most popular sport in the world and I am all for our kids playing the sport as it is healthy and overall less dangerous than football and other sports. However, I would not walk across the street to watch a soccer match and a fairly high share of U.S. fans share my view. I do not care if Greco Roman wrestling is the most popular sport, I find it boring and hard to watch. I do have the right to watch what I want and not watch what I do not enjoy and I intend to exercise that right. The first three days of the world tournament did not draw as well as the last three days and that is a hard fact. I do not think it will ever become as popular here in the U.S. and that does not make us bad people.
 
The biggest issue with women's wrestling IMO is the addition of women's wrestling has caused the reduction in men's weight classes in the Olympics from historically 10 weights to now 6 weight classes all forced upon us by the IOC. The IOC forced the inclusion of women's wrestling while limiting the number of total wrestling weight classes because of the desire to keep the size of the Olympics manageable. Of course the OIC keeps adding a lot of sports that have no business being in the "traditional" Olympics.
 
The biggest issue with women's wrestling IMO is the addition of women's wrestling has caused the reduction in men's weight classes in the Olympics from historically 10 weights to now 6 weight classes all forced upon us by the IOC. The IOC forced the inclusion of women's wrestling while limiting the number of total wrestling weight classes because of the desire to keep the size of the Olympics manageable. Of course the OIC keeps adding a lot of sports that have no business being in the "traditional" Olympics.
I will say that while my view of Greco has not changed and I can not foresee it changing in the future I have had a slight shift in my view of women's wrestling. I watched it and got excited for Maroulis and Gray and I have to admit that their wrestling was technical and entertaining. At least on the international level I have become a middling fan. Mr Earl who was sitting beside me at the matches became a huge fan and KC Scott and Togneto were also talking about it and making respectful comments. Wehweh makes points above that I agree with and the Olympics was wrong to cut the number of weights so that women could have more. Both should have more weights. Many college stars find that when they want to wrestle internationally that there is not a weight near their college weight and they are forced to cut too much or just wrestle at a bigger weight where they are out-muscled. Coleman Scott is a good example of this. Going back to a weight he has not wrestled in at least ten years is just asking too much from his body.
 
The IOC, and not the wrestling body, had to make the move with the wrestling -- otherwise, we would have no wrestling. So let's criticize and snub our noses at women's wrestling on a decision THEY had nothing to do with. Blame the women for the exclusion when they had nothing to do with it other than the desire to compete?

Women's freestyle, men's freestyle and Greco-Roman -- or no wrestling at all. Which would you prefer?
 
The IOC, and not the wrestling body, had to make the move with the wrestling -- otherwise, we would have no wrestling. So let's criticize and snub our noses at women's wrestling on a decision THEY had nothing to do with. Blame the women for the exclusion when they had nothing to do with it other than the desire to compete?

Women's freestyle, men's freestyle and Greco-Roman -- or no wrestling at all. Which would you prefer?
I really am a collegiate wrestling fan. I tolerate freestyle men's or women's but it is not on a par with folkstyle in my opinion. If we have to cut our weights to 4 or 5 weights then from my point of view I say forget the Olympics and just wrestle internationally at the world cups etc. No big deal to me if there is no Olympic wrestling.
BTW I never blamed the women but just the mentality and political correctness that said we are going to take a traditional male sport and make sure we damage it by saying anything you do for the men you have to do for the women. That might be fine except that IMHO having women's wrestling has not and will not gain us fans. I did not snub my nose at women's wrestling I merely echoed what the majority of wrestling fans believe. Why can I not have my sport and enjoy it without having to feel guilty about women being slighted. There is no ground swell for women's wrestling. As I said Earl became a big fan of it but he is a wrestling fan and a male. Where besides the competitors are the women fans of wrestling? I am merely expressing my desire to enjoy men's wrestling. Why must I enjoy women's wrestling or Greco wrestling. I do not like beets, never have and never will and you can try to convince me to like them but it will not work. I do not even feel that I have to try to like Greco. I have no guilt whatsoever in saying I do not like it.
 
JB - not sure where anyone has BLAMED the women - the blame is on the IOC. Most of us have no problem with adding women's wrestling, just don't cut back on the men's wrestling to "make room" for the women. The cut backs should be mainly on the team sports that have been added in the Olympics, which historically have emphasized individual athletic accomplishments.

Amen re: Obers folkstyle comment.
 
I really am a collegiate wrestling fan. I tolerate freestyle men's or women's but it is not on a par with folkstyle in my opinion. If we have to cut our weights to 4 or 5 weights then from my point of view I say forget the Olympics and just wrestle internationally at the world cups etc. No big deal to me if there is no Olympic wrestling.
BTW I never blamed the women but just the mentality and political correctness that said we are going to take a traditional male sport and make sure we damage it by saying anything you do for the men you have to do for the women. That might be fine except that IMHO having women's wrestling has not and will not gain us fans. I did not snub my nose at women's wrestling I merely echoed what the majority of wrestling fans believe. Why can I not have my sport and enjoy it without having to feel guilty about women being slighted. There is no ground swell for women's wrestling. As I said Earl became a big fan of it but he is a wrestling fan and a male. Where besides the competitors are the women fans of wrestling? I am merely expressing my desire to enjoy men's wrestling. Why must I enjoy women's wrestling or Greco wrestling. I do not like beets, never have and never will and you can try to convince me to like them but it will not work. I do not even feel that I have to try to like Greco. I have no guilt whatsoever in saying I do not like it.
I really don't know why you had to drag beets through the mud!(even though they do start in the ground) I'm going to have to keep an eye on you. Not sure I can trust someone who doesn't like beets!!
 
I really don't know why you had to drag beets through the mud!(even though they do start in the ground) I'm going to have to keep an eye on you. Not sure I can trust someone who doesn't like beets!!
April, Are you calling me a communist and not a true "merican? I can assure you when you finally buy me dinner I can eat anything else in the restaurant. That is my only food dislike and I think I am entitled to one. My dad would not let us leave the table without eating every thing my mother cooked or put on the plate. Many a long night ensued over that stricture. At one point to soften his stand he said if I would take a dose of castor oil I could skip the beets and I did that proudly.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jon_osu
Obe, I don't believe anyone is suggesting you HAVE to like women's wrestling or Greco. You're free to watch whatever you want and have whatever opinion you want. But if you're aware there's a world outside of Oklahoma and the US and, in that world, are people with opinions and affinities that are just as valid as yours, then why is it so hard to accept that there are many who enjoy women's wrestling. Because you haven't personally seen it? I know women's wrestling has opened up a fan base the sport of wrestling didn't previously have. I've seen it. Is it huge? No. Is it growing? Yes.

If you feel guilty about not supporting women in their efforts to have equal opportunities in all aspects of life (to include the opportunity to wrestle at all levels), then good....you should feel bad about that and recognize why you feel bad about it. It's because you have a conscience and it's telling you that women should have the same opportunities men have. I absolutely hate it when people play the "We've been doing this forever, so we should keep doing it" card. Things change, it's natural and it's ok.

In the end....it seems pretty simple and I think JB summed it up nicely. All three styles or none. Easy choice.The world of wrestling has changed. We can change with it, or we can fuss over how much "better" it used to be.

Also....I'm with April....let's keep innocent vegetables out of this.
 
ADVERTISEMENT

Latest posts

ADVERTISEMENT