LOL, you think I'm wound up over the statue thing? I have a very reasonable solution. If anything has me even remotely wound up it's the underpinnings of the movement that's pushing for removal.
Pelosi wants Confederate statues removed from Capitol
- Thread starter Medic007
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LOL, you think I'm wound up over the statue thing? I have a very reasonable solution. If anything has me even remotely wound up it's the underpinnings of the movement that's pushing for removal.
Charles Barkley's take.
http://www.dailywire.com/news/19925/watch-former-nba-star-charles-barkley-tells-hank-berrien
http://www.dailywire.com/news/19925/watch-former-nba-star-charles-barkley-tells-hank-berrien
So you're saying that sensitivity to racism correlates to low incidence of slavery?
We live in the dumbest times in the history of humanity.
You do know that Lee owned Slaves don't you? He acquired them from his FIL (George Washington Custis) who died in 1857.
Custis had provided in his will that ALL slaves were to be freed within 5 yrs of his death. Lee was none to happy that he wouldn't have slaves around to labor at the family plantation (which is on the Hill at Arlington Nat'l Cemetery) as the place wasn't making much if any money as it was. He actually petitioned the court in Arlington to set aside that portion of the will so he could keep them in bondage. Surprisingly, the court ruled against him and in a coincidence the ruling from the court came down the day the Emancipation Proclamation was issued.
Sayeth the basement snowflake who hasn't seen his/her/its ankles since God was a corporal.
The reason Democrats will continue to lose the middle isn't rocket science.
MO congressman William Lacy Clay is the one who repeatedly hung this painting in the Capitol. Apparently to him, this painting must be a force of good.
Earlier this year, Clay wrote a letter to the St. Louis Mayor demanding a confederate statue be torn down. In the letter he wrote " Let us lead and influence how we are perceived by the world ... as a force for good" and that "symbols associated with this country's racist, oppressive past should not be elevated or displayed in public places"
It should be noted that Clay wrote the letter only after the statue was in the news. It was in the news because a BLM rally defaced the statue.
What evidence has been submitted that these statues increase racism OR oppress african americans? I'm sure there's a statue of someone that owned slaves around me but for the life of me I couldn't tell you where and of whom. I don't wake up any morning and say a prayer of thanks that any statue is still standing, they mean very little to me. I actually like the idea of a private auction to sell the things. If a statue of Lee means that much to you then by all means buy it. Personally I think Lee is a pretty interesting American and fairly important in our history. I'm really just tired of everyone looking back at history with modern eyes and judging the $hit out of everyone. No doubt slavery was wrong but it was part of the culture for about 4500 years before Europeans ever set foot in North America. Our contribution to the history of slavery is about 200 years of the vast history of slavery, yet you would think the south invented the concept.
Life would have been just fine if they never existed but they do and it's a slippery slope to start tearing down historical monuments anytime you don't like what the person fought for. Surely there's something out there to fight for that would actually make a tangible impact on peoples lives?
Life would have been just fine if they never existed but they do and it's a slippery slope to start tearing down historical monuments anytime you don't like what the person fought for. Surely there's something out there to fight for that would actually make a tangible impact on peoples lives?
Inky29,
Looking at history from "Modern Eyes" is not a requirement to find the confederacy's founding on the basis of slavery and supremacy to be abhorrent. There were plenty of folks around at the time who found it evil.
Let's not forget that every single "Union" state had abolished slavery long before the Civil War, save one.* For example, NY had made slavery, slave trading and the importation of slaves into their state illegal in 1799. It's not like the notion that slavery is wrong just popped into the American conscious. Viewed with the eyes of most everyone outside the old south, Slavery had long been attacked as a moral stain on the country. If you look into the history of the "Southern Baptist Convention" you would discover that they had split-from their Northern Baptists cousins in 1845, due to the their support for slavery and the Northerners condemnation of it.
*Delaware allowed for slavery until the passage of the 13th Amendment in 1865. But the reality was that slavery was not widely practiced in the state as their only remained about 300 slaves in Delaware at the start of the Civil War and about 97% of the black population in the state were "freedmen."
Again, I'll only try and point you to the fact that the vast majority of these statues and memorials were erected by the klan (or similar racists groups), starting in the early 20th Century as a method of trying to instill some sense of fear in the black citizenry. You don't have to look at that through "modern eyes" either as it is historical fact. They were part of the "Jim Crow" system which likewise used a number of illegal means to keep blacks subjugated, keep them from voting and otherwise "show them their place."
Looking at history from "Modern Eyes" is not a requirement to find the confederacy's founding on the basis of slavery and supremacy to be abhorrent. There were plenty of folks around at the time who found it evil.
Let's not forget that every single "Union" state had abolished slavery long before the Civil War, save one.* For example, NY had made slavery, slave trading and the importation of slaves into their state illegal in 1799. It's not like the notion that slavery is wrong just popped into the American conscious. Viewed with the eyes of most everyone outside the old south, Slavery had long been attacked as a moral stain on the country. If you look into the history of the "Southern Baptist Convention" you would discover that they had split-from their Northern Baptists cousins in 1845, due to the their support for slavery and the Northerners condemnation of it.
*Delaware allowed for slavery until the passage of the 13th Amendment in 1865. But the reality was that slavery was not widely practiced in the state as their only remained about 300 slaves in Delaware at the start of the Civil War and about 97% of the black population in the state were "freedmen."
Again, I'll only try and point you to the fact that the vast majority of these statues and memorials were erected by the klan (or similar racists groups), starting in the early 20th Century as a method of trying to instill some sense of fear in the black citizenry. You don't have to look at that through "modern eyes" either as it is historical fact. They were part of the "Jim Crow" system which likewise used a number of illegal means to keep blacks subjugated, keep them from voting and otherwise "show them their place."
i admittedly haven't been watching the news
is this the explanation that's being handed out by the pelosi's of the world or a history lesson for inky and the rest of us here at
ostate dot com?
Ok, but again I ask you, today, how is the statue causing harm or intimidating anyone? Even without the statue you will still have idiots in the world hell bent on being pricks and rubes when it comes to race. Just seems like folks are picking at a scab when it doesn't need to be picked at.
I'm well aware that during that period slavery was opposed by a good majority of the population but it wasn't looked at nearly as harshly as it is today. So yeah, looking at history through modern eyes is a bad thing. The Norths view on slavery was kind of like me and asparagus. Yeah it's ok and has some worth but if I never have it again it doesn't hurt me, now if you like it and want to eat it, knock yourself out. Even after abolishing slavery it's not like they were welcoming to any freed slave. Heck Lincoln wanted to free them and send them back to Africa if possible but knew that by doing so they wouldn't live long if just dropped off back in Africa. Pretty big white supremacist view of things if you ask me, probably need to yank down his statues and get his mug off the five dollar bill. Reading a lot of Lincoln speeches, many times he says he hates slavery but really doesn't care that the south has slavery. Even goes as far to say once that even if freed he couldn't allow them to be political or social equals nor would most whites of the time. He was one of the greatest thinkers of his generation and by all accounts would be on the level of a David Duke with some of his views on race. Once again you can't look at past generations with modern eyes.
Northern states abolished it not due to some higher moral character but because it wasn't needed. The north was never the farming economy of the south so it wasn't needed. Yeah there were pockets of the north where it flourished but no where near like in the south. The Revolutionary war was probably the major factor that slowed down slavery in the North. Between the Americans paying slave owners $$ for slaves that would fight in the war and the British promising freedom the slave population in the North took a major beating. By the time the north got around to ending slavery, most of the states were less than 1% black. Even after abolishing slavery it's not like they were welcoming to any freed slave.
Tearing down these statues wont change one dang thing but if it helps someone sleep better at night thinking that there's not as much racism in the world because a statue of Lee was taken out of some assembly hall or park then so be it. Every day folks wake up an make a conscious decision to be racist, that decision isn't forced on them by the power of some statue.
I'm well aware that during that period slavery was opposed by a good majority of the population but it wasn't looked at nearly as harshly as it is today. So yeah, looking at history through modern eyes is a bad thing. The Norths view on slavery was kind of like me and asparagus. Yeah it's ok and has some worth but if I never have it again it doesn't hurt me, now if you like it and want to eat it, knock yourself out. Even after abolishing slavery it's not like they were welcoming to any freed slave. Heck Lincoln wanted to free them and send them back to Africa if possible but knew that by doing so they wouldn't live long if just dropped off back in Africa. Pretty big white supremacist view of things if you ask me, probably need to yank down his statues and get his mug off the five dollar bill. Reading a lot of Lincoln speeches, many times he says he hates slavery but really doesn't care that the south has slavery. Even goes as far to say once that even if freed he couldn't allow them to be political or social equals nor would most whites of the time. He was one of the greatest thinkers of his generation and by all accounts would be on the level of a David Duke with some of his views on race. Once again you can't look at past generations with modern eyes.
Northern states abolished it not due to some higher moral character but because it wasn't needed. The north was never the farming economy of the south so it wasn't needed. Yeah there were pockets of the north where it flourished but no where near like in the south. The Revolutionary war was probably the major factor that slowed down slavery in the North. Between the Americans paying slave owners $$ for slaves that would fight in the war and the British promising freedom the slave population in the North took a major beating. By the time the north got around to ending slavery, most of the states were less than 1% black. Even after abolishing slavery it's not like they were welcoming to any freed slave.
Tearing down these statues wont change one dang thing but if it helps someone sleep better at night thinking that there's not as much racism in the world because a statue of Lee was taken out of some assembly hall or park then so be it. Every day folks wake up an make a conscious decision to be racist, that decision isn't forced on them by the power of some statue.
What is the down side to removing them? Why is it so important that a statue remain there?
Why do we want to honor the confederacy so much? They lost.
So what if theres a slippery slope? Slippery slope to what?
A lot of that is true. What I can't get around is why it's even an issue. Those guys that fought the civil war set black people way back. They exploited them and left them without capital, literacy, family units and values, education, and to boot, shunned from white society. Then, they did all kinds of awful stuff to them.
Imagine that's your family legacy. Imagine the stories from your family and your friend's families. Throw in that there were constant follow ups. Jim Crow, KKK, segregation until the 60's and people fighting it tooth and toenail all the way. Along the way, whites put up statues of old slavers. I don't expect you to agree with blacks' perspective, and you may feel confident that you would have a more reasonable and mature response than the people that actually dealt with it. But why do you have to rub their nose in it by having honors to those people for them to have to see? Can they ever not have to see it or be reminded of it? Why do you insist on imposing that? They're not asking you to donate a lung or take out a 25 year penny sales tax. It;s like some white people get hard by imposing that imagery. "Ha, I can make them have to look at it."
You don't have to agree with their perspective, if they're being reasonable then the classy and loving course of action to american citizens is to meet their request. Nothing is hurt by taking a statue down that honors an enemy. Even if you feel that you know how the historically disadvantaged race should feel, you don't dispute how they do feel. I wouldn't want to walk past a Barry Switzer statue, much less some asshole that exploited my family.
Also, all the fretting over a statue?! After all this country and whites put the slaves and their descendants through, people really have such tender teacup sensibilities over a statue?
All great and legit points. The question I have is, why now? Pelosi has been in office since 1988. Were the statues representing something else then? Why not ask for their removal in 1988? 1992? 1995? 2002? 2006? 2009? 2013? The timing makes the motivation to have them removed from the capitol building seem very political and not tied at all to what you posted.
you gotta understand medic that the pelosis and those that can explain these goings on are simply smarter, emotionally and empathetically superior
it's all good tho leaves the rest of us something to strive for
It's totally political. As it would've been in 1988. If Nancy Pelosi or any elected official publicly pushes for something it's political, I would think. What I posted is political -- if it's a public policy that some people want and some people don't, why isn't that inherently political?
You present several valid thoughts.
I don't imagine most reasonable people would mind revisiting the percieved value in the criticized statues, evaluating each on their merits; can someone in the community make a persuasive case for why they should stay up vs come down?
My initial concerns are:
1. Lack of adherence to legal process.
2. What seems to be mob mentality.
3. Lack of expressed principle in evaluating the next target by said mob.
As such, what are the limits?
1. In actions taken by a mob.
2. What can't/won't be destroyed or targeted?
3. To what a member of a mob can get away with outside of legal channels.
And how do you and I know?
Please point me to where bringing down statutes of Hussein, Lenin, Stalin, or Milosevich has somehow assaulted accurate history.
Why is erecting a statute not mass programming, but tearing one down is?
Why do the confederate memorials apologists continually conflate accurate history with honoring the subject of the memorial? Since when does accurate history require a freaking statue?
Has there been some effort on the confederate apologists to make sure kids have good, accurate history on this stuff, or do the "history" concerns only arise when someone wants to take down an h
Wow. What a scandal. This is about as feeble counter-attack as I've seen. WHen exactly did the statute of limitations expire that nobody could advocate removing confederate iconography? Who developed this talking point?
Thirty years, huh? You know how much time elapsed between the Civil War and when lots of these were erected? Much longer than 30 years.
I'm sure her outrage is sincere and not just pandering to the news story of the day.
Well, I don't recall anyone trying to superimpose white supremacist on the president in 1988. Or 1992. Or 1996. Or 2000. Or 2004. 2008 and 2012 are self explanatory. But here in 2017, after a Democratic campaign in 2016 that tried to superimpose white supremacist on Trump, the sudden clamour over statues seems, at least on the surface, to be a tool to create more racial division. Isn't racial division the reason Democrats use to justify the removal of the statues?
The monument busters had best get after all of the statues around the country of northern generals like William Tecumseh Sherman, as well. His views on people of color and slavery pretty much aligned with slaveholders of the day. He had very close friends who were slaveholders and dined with and visited them often. He, like many others in the north, only took up swords against the South when the various southern states began seceding from the Union. To many people in the north, the war was to keep the union together, no more, no less.
And while these dimwits are busting up statues of William Tecumseh Sherman they might also take their hammers to monuments of President Abraham Lincoln. As an attorney, he sold slaves down river to settle his in-laws' estate. He also wrote a letter to Horace Greeley proclaiming that if he could save the union without freeing one single slave he would do it.
And while these dimwits are busting up statues of William Tecumseh Sherman they might also take their hammers to monuments of President Abraham Lincoln. As an attorney, he sold slaves down river to settle his in-laws' estate. He also wrote a letter to Horace Greeley proclaiming that if he could save the union without freeing one single slave he would do it.
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Yup. The confederate issue wasn't a hotbed topic pushed by politicians -- it was pushed by the citizenry. Pretty grass roots backlash to Charlottesville.
I don't think you had people superimposing white supremacy on other presidents because they weren't white supremacists. They were pretty black and white about it (no pun intended). Biff uses his usual blustering word salad that means whatever mood he's in. It's wrong, but there are many sides, but he has spoken out against racism, but there's good people on both sides, etc. He was sued for it, he's been accused of racism, his dad was racist, he should get ahead of it instead of his silly rambling. David Duke and supremacist protesters wearing his MAGA hat didn't help any, either.
So basically the country listened, watched, heard Biff and responded with, "White supremacists say they can gain momentum with you in the White House and they're publicly marching so... we're taking down the statutes now, Biff." I find that a totally bad-ass, quintessential American move. White supremacists try to rally and start growing and the country swamps them and tears down confederate icons. The poor girl that was killed kind of triggered this viral movement. Gotta love this country. As usual, conservatives (some - not all) are on the wrong side of history and are have their bottom lip stuck out. Good riddance.
They really should move to a third world country with no government, romanticize if not have outright slavery, theocracy, everyone has guns.... why are they even here? They should just leave and everyone is happier.
And yes, racial division is a pretty good reason to remove statues of the defenders of slavery. I can't see that having them up has healed anything.
More broflake hysteria.
Just like CONCENTRATION CAMPS.
Listening to the stated reasons to leave them up is pretty amazing. Like there's a rule of physics that a statue coming down will trigger all these awful consequences.
https://www.google.com/search?sourc...+Huckleberry+Finn+in+public+school+libraries&
More broflake hysteria.
Just like CONCENTRATION CAMPS.
Many of the books of Mark Twain, one of the greatest authors ever, are not seen in many schools across this land because of left-wing book bans.
More broflake hysteria.
Just like CONCENTRATION CAMPS.
