Next Years Lineup

[west2east]

But there is also a lot too older guys tending to fade and bad dudes being bad dudes as youngsters.

It’s a tough topic because I don’t think there is much nuance to it. Cael is so good that it’s clear cut, black and white imo.

If DT is what we hope then he’s already assembled enough talent to push before 2030.

If not then 2030 won’t help us

You don't try to reinvent the wheel with older guys as a new coach. You see what they do good and make it better and try to fix mistakes. With younger guys you mold them and teach them the system you want to wrestle. What DT is doing this year with the starters is way different than what he will be doing down the road with developing young talent. So this year will make fans excited but won't show us much in terms of pure development

 

[Old Number Nine]

When is the last time OSU has had 1 single national champion?

Ferrari - 21; Heil - 17 & 16; Derringer - 14, 15, & 16; Perry - 13 & 14; Oliver - 11 & 13

 

[Cowboy1989]

Ferrari - 21; Heil - 17 & 16; Derringer - 14, 15, & 16; Perry - 13 & 14; Oliver - 11 & 13

Thank you, I think you've made my point

 

[Cowboy1989]

I wish I could like this twice. That is exactly how I see it as well. It took Cael a long time to fill a lineup without a couple really weak spots and he had punt years every five years. It's not enough to recruit AAs. You need to recruit finalists. Lockett is one of those. So is Jax. You hired DT and his coaches to see into the future and find 2 Dee's and Jax's every year. In 5 years, you'll have 10 on your team.

This is PSU's finals count each year since 2012:

2024 - 6
2023 - 5
2022 - 5
2021 - 4
2019 - 5
2018 - 5
2017 - 5
2016 - 5
2015 - 1
2014 - 2
2013 - 5
2012 - 5

That's what you'll need to compete for a title. You just can't get five of those types and be happy because of injury, doesn't meet expectations, redshirting, Olympic shirting, girlfriends, on and on and on. You probably need 8 Dee Lockett types to get five finalists.

I think Pennstate 1985's posts have the clearest understanding of what Penn State has done and what another team will need to do to catch them than any other posts I've read. I hope I'm not putting words in his mouth but I also think that he believes that the combination of David Taylor and OSU will eventually produce a competitive landscape in wrestling again - at least between these 2 teams. Realistically, in my opinion, 2029-2030 is when it happens, but if it happens sooner fantastic!
I just hope that David Taylor does not get judged harshly if he doesn't produce a national championship before then, because from the tone of some of the posts, he will be - and the judgement will be based on unrealistic expectations. I think OSU hit a grand slam with Taylor and if he starts to win some titles by 2029 or 2030 I think Taylor will have proven to be the right coach for OSU.

 

[AtownPoke]

Thank you, I think you've made my point

Two things…

1) We all love John, but what did or didn’t happen for John over the last decade or so has little bearing imo. It’s like saying that because PSU only had two champs over the decade before Cael…that Cael shouldn’t have had any business producing Q, Molinaro, DT, Ed Ruth etc… And maybe he didn’t have any business turning those kids into champs as fast as he did, but he did. It’s also worth noting that things have sped way up since 2010 imo. Kids aren’t taking years in a college room to develop anymore. Guys like Luke, Blaze, PJ, Sealy, Ryder and Barr aren’t going to miss a beat. They’ll hit the mat contending… Merrill, Dee, Robideau, Jax and Ross better too. And if we appropriately identified Vega, Wolbert and others as bigtime potential types then that’s even better.

2)You’re right about expectations because they are sky high. That said, even if we haven’t won one by 2030, I don’t think he’s in any danger as long as we’ve been producing some champs and nipping at PSU’s heels... But let’s be honest with ourselves about what he was hired to do. He wasn’t hired for us to have goals like Michigan, tOSU, Minnesota, Cornell, Nebraska, NC State, Iowa State, VTech etc. He was hired to put OSU back on top and to do that you have to beat Iowa and PSU. Outside of just hiring Cael that’s going to be a gamble, but that’s the reason he was given the biggest contact in the sport. That’s what creates the pressure… not what fans think.

Anyway, this is the last thing I’ll say about it because we’ve went back and forth enough, but just so we’re all on the same page…
In 2030 if we haven’t heavily redshirted guys, Merrill will be gone, the ‘25 class (Dee & co) will be Seniors and the ‘26 boys will be Junior’s. If those guys hadn’t already done something in ‘27, ‘28 or ‘29 then ‘30 isn’t going to help them much imo. I also think we’ll find it harder to recruit at the same clip in ‘27, ‘28 & ‘29 if Dee and Jax’s classes don’t show something early.

Anyway, one thing is for sure… the environment around the program is buzzing and it’s a great time to be a cowboy.

 

[west2east]

I think Pennstate 1985's posts have the clearest understanding of what Penn State has done and what another team will need to do to catch them than any other posts I've read. I hope I'm not putting words in his mouth but I also think that he believes that the combination of David Taylor and OSU will eventually produce a competitive landscape in wrestling again - at least between these 2 teams. Realistically, in my opinion, 2029-2030 is when it happens, but if it happens sooner fantastic!
I just hope that David Taylor does not get judged harshly if he doesn't produce a national championship before then, because from the tone of some of the posts, he will be - and the judgement will be based on unrealistic expectations. I think OSU hit a grand slam with Taylor and if he starts to win some titles by 2029 or 2030 I think Taylor will have proven to be the right coach for OSU.

I agree saying if he doesn't win in the next few years he might not be the right guy is insane. People have to remember John last won in 2006. Judging DT and his staff on what they can do as a whole shouldn't happen for 5-6 years. What they can do individually we should get a glimpse of that impact with Merrill and Thompson next year

 

[AtownPoke]

I agree saying if he doesn't win in the next few years he might not be the right guy is insane. People have to remember John last won in 2006. Judging DT and his staff on what they can do as a whole shouldn't happen for 5-6 years. What they can do individually we should get a glimpse of that impact with Merrill and Thompson next year

I think people are mostly saying we need to be pushing them (no moral victories) in that time frame. That means individual champs and lots of finalists imo.

 

[Howie_Fartz]

I wish I could like this twice. That is exactly how I see it as well. It took Cael a long time to fill a lineup without a couple really weak spots and he had punt years every five years. It's not enough to recruit AAs. You need to recruit finalists. Lockett is one of those. So is Jax. You hired DT and his coaches to see into the future and find 2 Dee's and Jax's every year. In 5 years, you'll have 10 on your team.

This is PSU's finals count each year since 2012:

2024 - 6
2023 - 5
2022 - 5
2021 - 4
2019 - 5
2018 - 5
2017 - 5
2016 - 5
2015 - 1
2014 - 2
2013 - 5
2012 - 5

That's what you'll need to compete for a title. You just can't get five of those types and be happy because of injury, doesn't meet expectations, redshirting, Olympic shirting, girlfriends, on and on and on. You probably need 8 Dee Lockett types to get five finalists.

This is a solid take but way to generalized imo. The list of things that got psu where they are now is extensive to say the least. You CANNOT say who will be a finalist or a champ based solely on HS rankings. MM is a perfect example. Cstar showed nothing in HS that indicated he would be a 4 and potentially 5x champ. Even Willie has said this multiple times. Now this does point to psu's ability to develop of course. Here's some key factors that got them where they are:

-The culture they've established fosters success.
-The nlwc has had a huge role over the years to help w/ that development.
-The staff obviously has an amazing track record at spotting the right talent.
-They have almost a cult-like ability to get guys who cant start to stay.
-The covid year has allowed them to keep finalists and champs longer (granted so has every team).
-They're not afraid to pay past team members to stay and train with their team. I think we'd be amazed of how many are there at any one time.

So lets take those 1 by 1:

Culture- DT is the new sheriff in town. 3 strikes and your ass is out. If you dont want to be a natty champ or world champ then Stillwater isnt the place for you.

RTC- We all know this is a top priority for DT. There's already been some great additions and the list will grow. Keeping Cam, DJ, Dustin and Wyatt in the room, while not world champs will be a huge help. The nlwc is still strong but not quite as strong. With Thomas, RBY, and Daton OSU IS THE BEST lightweight (125-33) room in the country. You can agree to disagree. For those that dont know, Gilman is the reason that Braeden Davis went from a room guy to a B10 champ last year. Excited to see what happens in the Cowboy RTC going forward.

Talent- The new staffs ability to spot talent (lower ranked guys that can be developed into champs) is impossible to grade right now. But getting some awesome recruits is a great start. The great recruits will keep coming, count on it.

Depth- Like spotting that hidden talent this is to early to call. Also with the portal being easier to navigate it will be interesting to see if psu keeps their depth like they have in years past. Cael's sociopathic cult like ability to keep guys may remain strong, but time will tell with both teams with the current portal and nil.

Covid year- its over.

Keeping past guys in the room- This is already happening and will continue.

Thats my take on the list of attributes that have gotten psu where they are now. The biggest thing is that DT has the blueprint that it took Cael years to develop. Things will steamroll in Stillwater Ok going forward. I don't think people realize that if DT had been in Stillwater 1 year sooner how many guys he might've got that headed to psu. The bottom line is DT may never beat Cael as long as he's in state college, or he might beat him sooner than anyone thinks. Regardless, I'm here for it.

Fartz out ✌️

 

[chasepollard]

Nobody is going to be harder on the head coach than the head coach.

I doubt he gives a rip about what we think, mainly because we will like him more than he likes himself.

On the discussion, I kind of think many are saying the same things in different ways. Atown is saying we will know before 30 if we are dangering PSU. Does he/we/some of us expect a title before then? I do!

I expect we are favorites in 28 or 29 and we make it interesting in 27. If everything goes to plan, that’s what will happen. It really just depends on RS and injury.

Next year will be interesting. There are tons of holes to fill and I hope our onboarding team pics the best guys to continue momentum.

 

[SlickWillie2018]

I agree saying if he doesn't win in the next few years he might not be the right guy is insane. People have to remember John last won in 2006. Judging DT and his staff on what they can do as a whole shouldn't happen for 5-6 years. What they can do individually we should get a glimpse of that impact with Merrill and Thompson next year

Would like twice if I could. I personally don’t need a natty in the next 2-3 years to make a determination whether DT and his staff are “the guys”. I want/need to see a few things.

1. Guys wrestling at or above their seed at Big 12’s and NCAAs. Feels like so many times in the last 5 years we’ve had probably 2 or more guys look great all season and then totally crap the bed come tournament time and lose to guys they’ve either previously beaten or were ranked higher than.

2. Continuing to recruit at a high level, but sprinkle in a few “diamonds in the rough”. If you’re gonna beat PSU or at least surpass Iowa for 2nd, you need top 5-10 recruits at every single weight. Yeah you grab a Wolbert or Routledge who really jump levels as juniors/seniors in HS and haven’t been blue chip “can’t miss” prospects since they were 15. But that has to be the exception and not the rule.

3. Actually develop your highly rated recruits. Outside of Daton and AJ Ford Focus, how many of the top high school recruits John Smith landed really panned out how they were expected to in the last 5-6 years? Plott was ranked higher than Starocci in HS and even had H2H wins, but look how their respective collegiate careers have panned out. That’s DEVELOPMENT, not just TALENT. Guys like Lockett and Forrest absolutely have the potential to be 4 time AA’s and win multiple natties, and barring freak injuries anything short of that should be regarded as a failure. Same for Merril.

Just my 2 cents. I just want to see the improvement that I don’t think we got in the waning years of the previous staff.

 

[chasepollard]

Would like twice if I could. I personally don’t need a natty in the next 2-3 years to make a determination whether DT and his staff are “the guys”. I want/need to see a few things.

1. Guys wrestling at or above their seed at Big 12’s and NCAAs. Feels like so many times in the last 5 years we’ve had probably 2 or more guys look great all season and then totally crap the bed come tournament time and lose to guys they’ve either previously beaten or were ranked higher than.

2. Continuing to recruit at a high level, but sprinkle in a few “diamonds in the rough”. If you’re gonna beat PSU or at least surpass Iowa for 2nd, you need top 5-10 recruits at every single weight. Yeah you grab a Wolbert or Routledge who really jump levels as juniors/seniors in HS and haven’t been blue chip “can’t miss” prospects since they were 15. But that has to be the exception and not the rule.

3. Actually develop your highly rated recruits. Outside of Daton and AJ Ford Focus, how many of the top high school recruits John Smith landed really panned out how they were expected to in the last 5-6 years? Plott was ranked higher than Starocci in HS and even had H2H wins, but look how their respective collegiate careers have panned out. That’s DEVELOPMENT, not just TALENT. Guys like Lockett and Forrest absolutely have the potential to be 4 time AA’s and win multiple natties, and barring freak injuries anything short of that should be regarded as a failure. Same for Merril.

Just my 2 cents. I just want to see the improvement that I don’t think we got in the waning years of the previous staff.

Nice! I’m super excited to see #1!

March Matness is my favorite time of the year and the Blood Round is the most riveting few hours in all sports, all year. I’m ready to be happy after that session instead of dumbfounded.

 

[west2east]

Love the discussions being had here lately. This board is night and day from a year ago. And we lost Blair 🤣🤣. No doubt Blair was a relative of a staff member 🤷

 

[west2east]

Nice! I’m super excited to see #1!

March Matness is my favorite time of the year and the Blood Round is the most riveting few hours in all sports, all year. I’m ready to be happy after that session instead of dumbfounded.

We need the blood round moved away from the semis

 

[driad]

Love the discussions being had here lately. This board is night and day from a year ago. And we lost Blair 🤣🤣. No doubt Blair was a relative of a staff member 🤷

I loved Blair

 

[tom_v31]

Hard to say currently. Penn st has something special going on with development. They take guys and make them champions in 1 year. I believe Oklahoma St guys have improved this year for sure . Time will tell if DT and staff are able to get kids that good that fast. Barr was looking solid last year but not a world beater and now he is in the title conversation.Lets see how top talents Thompson and Merrill look next year and that will be a good gauge

Also, there was much more parity when Cael first went to PSU. The development of wrestling has changed, the athletes coming in have changed. I’ve said as much before, Penn State has what is called a “fly wheel affect”. The gears are moving, systems are in place. Everyone knows there rolls. I would imagine it didn’t start like that. Cael is very intense, has a good mind and an iron wheel. You don’t become 4x undefeated NCAA champion any other way. Hope we can get there. We have good start, that’s for sure. We just have to be patient.

 

[Pennstate1985]

Two things…

1) We all love John, but what did or didn’t happen for John over the last decade or so has little bearing imo. It’s like saying that because PSU only had two champs over the decade before Cael…that Cael shouldn’t have had any business producing Q, Molinaro, DT, Ed Ruth etc… And maybe he didn’t have any business turning those kids into champs as fast as he did, but he did. It’s also worth noting that things have sped way up since 2010 imo. Kids aren’t taking years in a college room to develop anymore. Guys like Luke, Blaze, PJ, Sealy, Ryder and Barr aren’t going to miss a beat. They’ll hit the mat contending… Merrill, Dee, Robideau, Jax and Ross better too. And if we appropriately identified Vega, Wolbert and others as bigtime potential types then that’s even better.

2)You’re right about expectations because they are sky high. That said, even if we haven’t won one by 2030, I don’t think he’s in any danger as long as we’ve been producing some champs and nipping at PSU’s heels... But let’s be honest with ourselves about what he was hired to do. He wasn’t hired for us to have goals like Michigan, tOSU, Minnesota, Cornell, Nebraska, NC State, Iowa State, VTech etc. He was hired to put OSU back on top and to do that you have to beat Iowa and PSU. Outside of just hiring Cael that’s going to be a gamble, but that’s the reason he was given the biggest contact in the sport. That’s what creates the pressure… not what fans think.

Anyway, this is the last thing I’ll say about it because we’ve went back and forth enough, but just so we’re all on the same page…
In 2030 if we haven’t heavily redshirted guys, Merrill will be gone, the ‘25 class (Dee & co) will be Seniors and the ‘26 boys will be Junior’s. If those guys hadn’t already done something in ‘27, ‘28 or ‘29 then ‘30 isn’t going to help them much imo. I also think we’ll find it harder to recruit at the same clip in ‘27, ‘28 & ‘29 if Dee and Jax’s classes don’t show something early.

Anyway, one thing is for sure… the environment around the program is buzzing and it’s a great time to be a cowboy.

1) There is a little bit of a mirage going on there. Cael isn't turning any kids into champs. They come ready to turn themselves into champs with their learning mindset and love of the sport. Many of Cael's top recruits are heavily into freestyle. Guys who love to spar. Who will leave HS a year early to live and train in State College. These kids leave HS at 17 and start when they are 20. Yeah, they are freshmen but with three years of college training. What was Cael favorite quote. "three things a college student can excel at are academics, wrestling, and a social life, but one can only truly excel at two of them at a time. "

2) The whole 2030 idea is predicated on OSU filling out their lineup with enough firepower to go toe to toe with PSU. I certainly think OSU is competitive in 2028 but the real hump year is 2030. Don't forget that you guys are recruiting great but so is PSU. And PSU has a 3-4 year head start. You need to assume that PSU stays at their level for another 5 years because the pipeline is full through 2030. OSU can build to that level but it will take a few years to reach PSU.

 

[AtownPoke]

Would like twice if I could. I personally don’t need a natty in the next 2-3 years to make a determination whether DT and his staff are “the guys”. I want/need to see a few things.

1. Guys wrestling at or above their seed at Big 12’s and NCAAs. Feels like so many times in the last 5 years we’ve had probably 2 or more guys look great all season and then totally crap the bed come tournament time and lose to guys they’ve either previously beaten or were ranked higher than.

2. Continuing to recruit at a high level, but sprinkle in a few “diamonds in the rough”. If you’re gonna beat PSU or at least surpass Iowa for 2nd, you need top 5-10 recruits at every single weight. Yeah you grab a Wolbert or Routledge who really jump levels as juniors/seniors in HS and haven’t been blue chip “can’t miss” prospects since they were 15. But that has to be the exception and not the rule.

3. Actually develop your highly rated recruits. Outside of Daton and AJ Ford Focus, how many of the top high school recruits John Smith landed really panned out how they were expected to in the last 5-6 years? Plott was ranked higher than Starocci in HS and even had H2H wins, but look how their respective collegiate careers have panned out. That’s DEVELOPMENT, not just TALENT. Guys like Lockett and Forrest absolutely have the potential to be 4 time AA’s and win multiple natties, and barring freak injuries anything short of that should be regarded as a failure. Same for Merril.

Just my 2 cents. I just want to see the improvement that I don’t think we got in the waning years of the previous staff.

Love it… especially “AJ FordFocus” 🤣

 

[west2east]

1) There is a little bit of a mirage going on there. Cael isn't turning any kids into champs. They come ready to turn themselves into champs with their learning mindset and love of the sport. Many of Cael's top recruits are heavily into freestyle. Guys who love to spar. Who will leave HS a year early to live and train in State College. These kids leave HS at 17 and start when they are 20. Yeah, they are freshmen but with three years of college training. What was Cael favorite quote. "three things a college student can excel at are academics, wrestling, and a social life, but one can only truly excel at two of them at a time. "

2) The whole 2030 idea is predicated on OSU filling out their lineup with enough firepower to go toe to toe with PSU. I certainly think OSU is competitive in 2028 but the real hump year is 2030. Don't forget that you guys are recruiting great but so is PSU. And PSU has a 3-4 year head start. You need to assume that PSU stays at their level for another 5 years because the pipeline is full through 2030. OSU can build to that level but it will take a few years to reach PSU.

Oklahoma st has been using Stillwater HS for kids to move in. Wouldn't shock me if Jax is at Stillwater HS next year

 

[west2east]

Love it… especially “AJ FordFocus” 🤣

You mean your last NCAA champion. Fastest slickest quickest Ferrari ever built #665. Love him or hate him he got it done and as a freshman. Others couldn't and had many more attempts

 

[SlickWillie2018]

You mean your last NCAA champion. Fastest slickest quickest Ferrari ever built #665. Love him or hate him he got it done and as a freshman. Others couldn't and had many more attempts

Talent isn’t his problem. Character and decision making are. He’s an otherworldly athlete but also his own worst enemy

 

[DPJ]

You mean your last NCAA champion. Fastest slickest quickest Ferrari ever built #665. Love him or hate him he got it done and as a freshman. Others couldn't and had many more attempts

You need to up your game, you need another 30 emojis when your describing AJ lol. Seems like a lifetime ago watching him win a title, crazy to think of what could've been. Oh well, we're on to bigger and better things!

 

[SlickWillie2018]

1) There is a little bit of a mirage going on there. Cael isn't turning any kids into champs. They come ready to turn themselves into champs with their learning mindset and love of the sport. Many of Cael's top recruits are heavily into freestyle. Guys who love to spar. Who will leave HS a year early to live and train in State College.

Reminds me of something I heard from a wrestler/counselor at a Jack Spates camp when I was in high school: Do you love wrestling or do you like being good at wrestling?

 

[AtownPoke]

1) There is a little bit of a mirage going on there. Cael isn't turning any kids into champs. They come ready to turn themselves into champs with their learning mindset and love of the sport. Many of Cael's top recruits are heavily into freestyle. Guys who love to spar. Who will leave HS a year early to live and train in State College. These kids leave HS at 17 and start when they are 20. Yeah, they are freshmen but with three years of college training. What was Cael favorite quote. "three things a college student can excel at are academics, wrestling, and a social life, but one can only truly excel at two of them at a time. "

2) The whole 2030 idea is predicated on OSU filling out their lineup with enough firepower to go toe to toe with PSU. I certainly think OSU is competitive in 2028 but the real hump year is 2030. Don't forget that you guys are recruiting great but so is PSU. And PSU has a 3-4 year head start. You need to assume that PSU stays at their level for another 5 years because the pipeline is full through 2030. OSU can build to that level but it will take a few years to reach PSU.

All fair but a guy becoming the guy is still way easier said than done. You know what they say about best made plans…. That said, we’re checking those prep boxes that you laid out in #1 so that’s a hill we’re already climbing imo.

As for #2, I believe we both took complete studs and good depth in ‘25. ‘26 could be a straight up win for us. ‘27 will be interesting with Melvin basically off the board.

You mean your last NCAA champion. Fastest slickest quickest Ferrari ever built #665. Love him or hate him he got it done and as a freshman. Others couldn't and had many more attempts

For sure, but it’s still funny.

 

[Pennstate1985]

This is a solid take but way to generalized imo. The list of things that got psu where they are now is extensive to say the least. You CANNOT say who will be a finalist or a champ based solely on HS rankings.

I am sure Cael and DT have similar characteristics that they are looking for in a recruit. Many just happen to be in the top 10, but some do not. WE go by rankings. Coaches go by another standard, or at least should be.

If you remove rankings from your last statement, then I do not agree. Most of us on here think Lockett passes the eye test as a multi time finalist/champ. If we can discern quality, what do you think guys like Cael and DT can see as coaches?

 

[Howie_Fartz]

I am sure Cael and DT have similar characteristics that they are looking for in a recruit. Many just happen to be in the top 10, but some do not. WE go by rankings. Coaches go by another standard, or at least should be.

If you remove rankings from your last statement, then I do not agree. Most of us on here think Lockett passes the eye test as a multi time finalist/champ. If we can discern quality, what do you think guys like Cael and DT can see as coaches?

Oh I have to agree on Lockett and the eye test. It’s those non obvious things that Cael seems to see that guys pan out and excel more often then not. If I knew what those things were then I’d be traveling the country as a consultant 😎.

 

[Pennstate1985]

All fair but a guy become the guy is still way easier said than done. You know what they say about best made plans…. That said, we’re checking those prep boxes that you laid out in #1 so that’s a hill we’re already climbing imo.

As for #2, I believe we both took complete studs and good depth in ‘25. ‘26 could be a straight up win for us. ‘27 will be interesting with Melvin basically off the board.


For sure, but it’s still funny.

Duke and Blaze are good additions for us, as well as a few other studs that may need a little more wrestling growth. I understand you guys had more needs in a fairly deep class. Not sure next year's class is as deep.

 

[Pennstate1985]

Oh I have to agree on Lockett and the eye test. It’s those non obvious things that Cael seems to see that guys pan out and excel more often then not. If I knew what those things were then I’d be traveling the country as a consultant 😎.

@smalls103 has that answer I bet.

 

[Howie_Fartz]

@smalls103 has that answer I bet.

Thats why hes the 🧠!

 

[Pennstate1985]

Thats why hes the 🧠!

If he is the 🧠, then why do so many Iowa fans call him an idiot?

Edit: I just found out that emoji has a search function. I guess I'm at 2010 level of development.

 

[west2east]

Thats why hes the 🧠!

I thought only dorks gave themselves nicknames 🤣😜