Methodist Church taking up the question on LQBTwtf

[SUPERPOKES]

I'm not calling anyone here phobic. I just think it is very odd that churches seem to focus on homosexuality above other sins. We all live in a state of sin. Yet, being gay seems to preclude admittance. I don't think that is what Jesus would preach.

If you believe; you're in. If it was good enough for Christ then it's good enough for me and any church I'd ever want to attend.

Whoever said gays were kicked out of the church (or “preclude” them from being admitted)? There’s a difference between not being allowed in the church and not conducting a gay marriage in the church. Any church that doesn’t accept sinners is not a Christian Church. Conversely, any church that accepts sin and doesn’t turn from it is not a Christian Church.

 

[HighStickHarry]

The Church is led my sinful men and has always and will always do sinful things. We only know 2 things about the Church.

1) It will never err on doctrine.
2) It will never be destroyed.

We have the promise of Christ on that that the gates of hell will never prevail.

But Christ has only one bride, the Catholic Church. No other Church has that promise.

When Martin Luther visited Rome he didn’t find any Christians that met his standards. Protestantism was self defense to a morally corrupt administration that people like Martin Luther had dedicated their lives to. If he and others are just supposed to swallow what that church has done the last 2000 years, and that’s the only way to eternal salvation, that’s a pretty cruel trick to play.

 

[brtinla]

Oh good grief you know Luther was insane and called for the murder of priests and nuns. He took out several books of the bible and 5 of the 7 sacraments. Think of it! 5 of the 7 Sacraments! So all of Christianity, all of it was wrong, all of the Saints, from the 12 Apostles to Augustine, to Thomas Aquinas, ALL the Saints were wrong until Luther, who died quite mad, made things right?

And yet the followers of Luther have changed thier mind about thousands of things since then? Satan's plan.

 

[brtinla]

We can lay, side by side, the beliefs of the Church Fathers versus Luther's beliefs, 15 centuries later. If you choose to believe Luther after reading the beliefs of the Fathers you are simply displaying a simple truth of tribalism over rationality. People believe what thier parents believed, despite all. evidence

 

[HighStickHarry]

I’m not deifying Luther, but has Rome pushed people away from the church by being less than virtuous? It would seem to me if Protestants are lost sheep, and Catholicism the Shepard, whose fault is it the sheep wandered off?

 

[MegaPoke]

I’m betting many of you fellow Christians in this thread would search for alternate interpretations of these scriptures if you were gay. Not really saying you are wrong but context in this case would matter a great deal as to whether or not the Methodists were heretics or offering a life preserver to gay Christians.

Most sins you make a choice to give in to or avoid. But, If you aren’t gay try to put yourself in the mindset of having to either marry another man or live a celibate life in order to avoid unrepentant sin. And no beating off either because that too is a sin. Yet you still can observe the natural beauty and sexuality of women. Just can’t ever be with one or risk being unrepentantly sinful.

On a level of 1-10 that would suck at a level 20.

Just saying this may be a more spiritually complicated matter than what’s generally being laid out here.

Unless you think gayness is a choice, which almost certainly means you are a closet gay.

 

[BIGOSUFAN]

I swear I'm not being obtuse. I just can't tell if that's a 'yes' or a 'no'.

By “openly homosexual” I am assuming you are referring to someone who has same-sex attraction and is engaged in sodomy. In that case, yes, they certainly can attend Mass, but they should not take Communion.

 

[Rdcldad]

brt and his life view is much more unsettling to me than rupauls

it’s much like cank and trump

one a covert lie the other an ugly truth

 

[poke2001]

brt and his life view is much more unsettling to me than rupauls

it’s much like cank and trump

one a covert lie the other an ugly truth

Perfect way to describe it.

 

[Ostatedchi]

By “openly homosexual” I am assuming you are referring to someone who has same-sex attraction and is engaged in sodomy. In that case, yes, they certainly can attend Mass, but they should not take Communion.

It could be two women. In that case sodomy probably isn't on the table. And would sodomy from a straight married male/female couple also stop them from taking Communion?

 

[BIGOSUFAN]

It could be two women. In that case sodomy probably isn't on the table. And would sodomy from a straight married male/female couple also stop them from taking Communion?

If the two women are engaged in acts that are intrinsically disordered, then yes they should abstain from Communion. Don’t know the teaching/rationale on your second question. I’ll try and find out.

 

[windriverrange]

I’m betting many of you fellow Christians in this thread would search for alternate interpretations of these scriptures if you were gay. Not really saying you are wrong but context in this case would matter a great deal as to whether or not the Methodists were heretics or offering a life preserver to gay Christians.

Most sins you make a choice to give in to or avoid. But, If you aren’t gay try to put yourself in the mindset of having to either marry another man or live a celibate life in order to avoid unrepentant sin. And no beating off either because that too is a sin. Yet you still can observe the natural beauty and sexuality of women. Just can’t ever be with one or risk being unrepentantly sinful.

On a level of 1-10 that would suck at a level 20.

Just saying this may be a more spiritually complicated matter than what’s generally being laid out here.

Unless you think gayness is a choice, which almost certainly means you are a closet gay.

The church I go to (Methodist) has never bagged on homosexuality. Sin is sin and one is no less egregious than another. What I know for sure is that when you/I are judged there will be no humans on the throne. I believe in a forgiving and loving God, as such I don't think all those people never exposed to the gospel are in hell. We are placed on this earth with a certain set of Godly ordained gifts which you or may or may not ever discover, but the reality is when you sin you are forgiven...all it takes is to ask for forgiveness.

When I see arguments that homosexuality is wrong and the continued practice of such a lifestyle is means for scorn I just laugh. I compare this to doctrine, suicide and smoking. Almost without fail (yes I know everyone has an uncle, aunt great grandparent etc. that smoked and drank everyday of their life and lived to the age of 105) every cigarette you smoke is invariably leading to your death, so you are committing suicide, albeit much slower than the other method, but suicide none the less. That is certainly a sin and continued partaking of cigarettes is sin multiplied so is that less or more of a sin than a homosexual act? We ALL fall short of the glory of God......

Interesting side story. My great uncle served with 3rd Army ETO WWII. His unit pivoted from Luxembourg during the Battle of The Bulge, through Bastogne and then through southern Germany. One of their stays was in a castle in southern Germany and as was very common he took the "key to the castle" literally. Turns out that castle is where Martin Luther hid when he was charged with heresy. We still have the key in the family.

 

[07pilt]

intrinsically disordered?

 

[wyomingosualum]

Oh good grief you know Luther was insane and called for the murder of priests and nuns. He took out several books of the bible and 5 of the 7 sacraments. Think of it! 5 of the 7 Sacraments! So all of Christianity, all of it was wrong, all of the Saints, from the 12 Apostles to Augustine, to Thomas Aquinas, ALL the Saints were wrong until Luther, who died quite mad, made things right?

And yet the followers of Luther have changed thier mind about thousands of things since then? Satan's plan.

Any good come out of the Reformation at all or just Satan? And if you could answer in Latin, that’d be super.

 

[TPOKE]

So you welcome homosexuals in your church and then just let God worry about it in the afterlife?

Sure, as long as they don't flaunt it or make it an issue. Show up, worship and go home. Problem is, a lot of them have a hard time doing that.

I'm sure there are some gay people in our church, but they/I don't make it an issue.

 

[Medic007]

Any good come out of the Reformation at all or just Satan? And if you could answer in Latin, that’d be super.

I laughed out loud.

 

[Ostatedchi]

Sure, as long as they don't flaunt it or make it an issue. Show up, worship and go home. Problem is, a lot of them have a hard time doing that.

I'm sure there are some gay people in our church, but they/I don't make it an issue.

I can understand that and think it is the right approach. I guess my follow up to your point about them making a big deal of their orientation is the chicken and egg thought exercise.

Are they outspoken about it as a result of the general thought that they are heretics living in sin?

 

[PDT816]

I can understand that and think it is the right approach. I guess my follow up to your point about them making a big deal of their orientation is the chicken and egg thought exercise.

Are they outspoken about it as a result of the general thought that they are heretics living in sin?

What should churches preach about homosexuality from the pulpit?

 

[Ostatedchi]

What should churches preach about homosexuality from the pulpit?

That all sin is equal and that they are welcome and equal members of the church. In so much that everyone is living in a constant state of sin... even if the church doesn’t recognize their worldly relationship.

 

[PDT816]

That all sin is equal and that they are welcome and equal members of the church. In so much that everyone is living in a constant state of sin... even if the church doesn’t recognize their worldly relationship.

This apply to child molesters as well? You want the church to go out of its way to make them feel welcome?

 

[07pilt]

This apply to child molesters as well? You want the church to go out of its way to make them feel welcome?

I can't think of any key differences between child molesters and homosexuals that would make one more welcome in a spiritual community than the other

 

[Ostatedchi]

This apply to child molesters as well? You want the church to go out of its way to make them feel welcome?

Apples and oranges. One is a crime, one isn't. One should be free to live in society and one should be incarcerated

 

[PDT816]

Apples and oranges. One is a crime, one isn't. One should be free to live in society and one should be incarcerated

So a church should have discriminated against homosexuals up until the Supreme Court stated that gay marriage should be legal.

 

[Marshal Jim Duncan]

That all sin is equal and that they are welcome and equal members of the church. In so much that everyone is living in a constant state of sin... even if the church doesn’t recognize their worldly relationship.

What you seem to still be failing to grasp or at least acknowledge is that openly gay, and certainly married gay parishioners will not be acknowledging their sin as sin. The other, related difference you seem to not account for is that the sin of the hypothetical gay couple, that are openly gay, would be known to all. You can not be repentant of a sin if that sin is your lifestyle and you have no plans to change.

In the case of many other sins committed by other sinners , they aren’t known. In many churches if sins are known, the member IS confronted. If they don’t repent, they may face ostracization and some exclusion. There isn’t a mainline church, for example, that would openly preach that it was OK for a known philanderer with multiple known sex partners other than his wife, to continue in that lifestyle. Or for someone who is a known, diagnosed substance abuser to continue abusing alcohol or drugs to their heart’s content, no need to rehab or even say “I’m trying to quit”.

 

[Ostatedchi]

So a church should have discriminated against homosexuals up until the Supreme Court stated that gay marriage should be legal.

Being homosexual wasnt criminal prior to the state recognizing same sex marriage as legal.

 

[Ostatedchi]

What you seem to still be failing to grasp or at least acknowledge is that openly gay, and certainly married gay parishioners will not be acknowledging their sin as sin.

How can you know that or judge someone's conscience? Maybe they do recognize it as sin, wish they could change, but realize that we are all sinners and what gets us into heaven is belief, not works.

 

[Ostatedchi]

What you seem to still be failing to grasp or at least acknowledge is that openly gay, and certainly married gay parishioners will not be acknowledging their sin as sin. The other, related difference you seem to not account for is that the sin of the hypothetical gay couple, that are openly gay, would be known to all. You can not be repentant of a sin if that sin is your lifestyle and you have no plans to change.

In the case of many other sins committed by other sinners , they aren’t known. In many churches if sins are known, the member IS confronted. If they don’t repent, they may face ostracization and some exclusion. There isn’t a mainline church, for example, that would openly preach that it was OK for a known philanderer with multiple known sex partners other than his wife, to continue in that lifestyle. Or for someone who is a known, diagnosed substance abuser to continue abusing alcohol or drugs to their heart’s content, no need to rehab or even say “I’m trying to quit”.

All signs of commission. Yet the sins of omission are just glossed over? Again, any ranking of sins is doomed for failure and ultimately a hypocritical response.

 

[07pilt]

Hard to see how a gay person who remains married can be repentant.

If you are repenting for using pornography you gotta cancel the pornhub premium subscription

 

[Marshal Jim Duncan]

How can you know that or judge someone's conscience? Maybe they do recognize it as sin, wish they could change, but realize that we are all sinners and what gets us into heaven is belief, not works.

Common sense.

 

[Ostatedchi]

Common sense.

And that’s biblical?

 

[PDT816]

Being homosexual wasnt criminal prior to the state recognizing same sex marriage as legal.

Hate to break it to you, but homosexual acts were illegal in many states until the courts ruled them unlawful

 

[Marshal Jim Duncan]

And that’s biblical?

Yes. And also relies upon a definition of repentance that conforms to the biblical definition and isn’t nonsensical.

 

[wyomingosualum]

Who says you shouldn’t talk about religion and politics? Look at us! We’re kicking the shit outta this!

 

[Ostatedchi]

Sure sounds very self righteous to me. Keep all those damn sinners out of our church.

 

[AC_Exotic]

Sure sounds very self righteous to me. Keep all those damn sinners out of our church.

No one ever said it was easy.

God forgives, but only if we repent. Otherwise we fall into the "its a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God" problem.

 

[TPOKE]

I can understand that and think it is the right approach. I guess my follow up to your point about them making a big deal of their orientation is the chicken and egg thought exercise.

Are they outspoken about it as a result of the general thought that they are heretics living in sin?

Really, no one says a thing. I live in a smaller town and am an active member in the Catholic Church where everyone gets along, give or take a few things here or there.
When Gay marriage was legalized, our priest's homily revolved around how terrible someone's life would be if they were hated, as well as the hater's. Regardless of the reason.
One of my daughter's closest friends at OSU was Gay, and it was obvious. He was a great friend to her and joined us at the restaurant after her graduation. I think she was a little nervous but I told her the only reason I don't care for certain people is if they're a-holes.

 

[Marshal Jim Duncan]

 

[Ostatedchi]

So in order to show repentance, a LGBTQ person must outwardly show the church they've changed by their physical deeds? Faith with out works is dead. But, it's not by works of righteousness that we have done by according to his mercy we are saved.

Again, I just find it really unChristianlike to hold them to a higher standard than the rest of the congregation just because their sins are more visible to you than other people's sins. All other people's sins. God knows their sins as he knows yours. The artificial hurdle you place in front of them isn't a requirement according to God.

First you hear the word, then the holy spirit works in your heart to move you to contrition, from that contrition you recognize you are a sinner (as are all people), you repent of your sins even though everyone including you are going to constantly fall back into sin, and believe that Christ is the path to heaven. Once you do that... you're in. Forever. What God put together let no man put asunder. Continuing in a homosexual relationship for the rest of your life can't overwrite or undo that if it genuinely happens in a person. And none of us are equipped to judge anyone else on if that expression was genuine or not. And any attempt to do so based on their works is a futile effort. One that I would contend would get a lecture from Christ for imposing yourself (or the Church body) between a sinner and salvation.

Once you are saved; you are always saved.

 

[Ostatedchi]

Really, no one says a thing. I live in a smaller town and am an active member in the Catholic Church where everyone gets along, give or take a few things here or there.
When Gay marriage was legalized, our priest's homily revolved around how terrible someone's life would be if they were hated, as well as the hater's. Regardless of the reason.
One of my daughter's closest friends at OSU was Gay, and it was obvious. He was a great friend to her and joined us at the restaurant after her graduation. I think she was a little nervous but I told her the only reason I don't care for certain people is if they're a-holes.

That's great. But you still wouldn't let them fully be a part of your congregation as a gay person living an openly gay lifestyle.

 

[Ostatedchi]

No one ever said it was easy.

God forgives, but only if we repent. Otherwise we fall into the "its a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God" problem.

Define to me what you you think it means to repent please.