Methodist Church taking up the question on LQBTwtf

[Marshal Jim Duncan]

From the link: People have a basic, ethical intuition that certain behaviors are wrong because they are unnatural. We perceive intuitively that the natural sex partner of a human is another human, not an animal.

The same reasoning applies to the case of homosexual behavior. The natural sex partner for a man is a woman, and the natural sex partner for a woman is a man. Thus, people have the corresponding intuition concerning homosexuality that they do about bestiality—that it is wrong because it is unnatural.


Sorry, that doesn’t fly at all.

You may not agree that it is unnatural, and that is certainly your prerogative, but the Bible certainly doesn't agree with you on that point.

You make some good points as to inconsistencies in the attitude of churches towards different categories of (habitual) sin. However, a couple of counterpoints on that subject:

1. A lot of church's certainly did, in the past, ex-communicate or refuse fellowship for parishioners for a wide range of sins. Modernity and changing attitudes gradually and then more forcibly led church after church to change their practices and views, for better or worse. This is just another example. One that many find harder to accept, and some of the reasons cited undoubtably play a role.
2. You ask how one is to determine whether someone is an habitual sinner vs someone who is just struggling with a weakness and "back-sliding". It's a valid question, no doubt. However, in the case of an openly gay person or a church that states they are accepting openly gay people as Christian members of their church, and certainly in the case of married gay couples --- there is NO attempt to repent from the sin. The view is that it is OK, so the question you asked is moot in that situation.

Lastly, while we never should presume to pronounce final judgment on any other person and we all should be slow to condemn and quicker to realize our own faults --- this idea that the Church hierarchy should just ignore clearly sinning brothers and "just leave it to God" is clearly contrary to NT Christian doctrine.

 

[SUPERPOKES]

Then why would you only not allow homosexuals to be members of the church and not all those others living in sin as well?

That’s not the case. We all sin. That’s a given. But it’s accepting the sin that is in question. The church is not turning away homosexuals, it’s simply not taking part in accepting a gay marriage in the sight of God. Neither should the church accept any other thing that the Bible says is a sin.

The issue here would be the same as the church saying it is okay to murder or steal or lie. The church accepts people who do these things, but it asks those people to turn away from their sin.

 

[JimmyBob]

Masturbation is not a sin.

So why did mom tell me I'd go blind?

 

[HighStickHarry]

The Methodist church sponsors a lot of stuff (churches, schools, etc) around the world. It will be interesting to see how this plays on other continents.

 

[Rdcldad]

i love this sorta thread

PTL & pass the ammunition

 

[JimmyBob]

i love this sorta thread

PTL & pass the ammunition

View embedded media

This needs music:

 

[AC_Exotic]

That’s not the case. We all sin. That’s a given. But it’s accepting the sin that is in question. The church is not turning away homosexuals, it’s simply not taking part in accepting a gay marriage in the sight of God. Neither should the church accept any other thing that the Bible says is a sin.

The issue here would be the same as the church saying it is okay to murder or steal or lie. The church accepts people who do these things, but it asks those people to turn away from their sin.

Agree 100 percent.

 

[SUPERPOKES]

I’ll say this another way for people who call me and others who think like me homophobic. I do not hate the person, I disagree with their lifestyle. If my brother or my best friend came to me and said they were gay, I wouldn’t suddenly hate them, but I wouldn’t agree with their lifestyle.

 

[poke2001]

I’ll say this another way for people who call me and others who think like me homophobic. I do not hate the person, I disagree with their lifestyle. If my brother or my best friend came to me and said they were gay, I wouldn’t suddenly hate them, but I wouldn’t agree with their lifestyle.

Does it matter if you agree or disagree? It is THEIR lifestyle after all.

 

[BIGOSUFAN]

I’ll say this another way for people who call me and others who think like me homophobic. I do not hate the person, I disagree with their lifestyle. If my brother or my best friend came to me and said they were gay, I wouldn’t suddenly hate them, but I wouldn’t agree with their lifestyle.

The term “homophobic” is the dumbest term ever. The LGBTQwxyz fascists think anyone who disagrees with them about anything is “homophobic.” If I don’t want a grown man masquerading as a woman alone in the bathroom with my ten year-old daughter then suddenly I am “homophobic” and “transphobic.”

 

[BIGOSUFAN]

Does it matter if you agree or disagree? It is THEIR lifestyle after all.

That’s not good enough for the LGBTQ fascists. They are trying to get this stuff taught in public schools as “healthy and normal.” It is neither.

 

[Ostatedchi]

I'm not calling anyone here phobic. I just think it is very odd that churches seem to focus on homosexuality above other sins. We all live in a state of sin. Yet, being gay seems to preclude admittance. I don't think that is what Jesus would preach.

If you believe; you're in. If it was good enough for Christ then it's good enough for me and any church I'd ever want to attend.

 

[Ostatedchi]

You may not agree that it is unnatural, and that is certainly your prerogative, but the Bible certainly doesn't agree with you on that point.

You make some good points as to inconsistencies in the attitude of churches towards different categories of (habitual) sin. However, a couple of counterpoints on that subject:

1. A lot of church's certainly did, in the past, ex-communicate or refuse fellowship for parishioners for a wide range of sins. Modernity and changing attitudes gradually and then more forcibly led church after church to change their practices and views, for better or worse. This is just another example. One that many find harder to accept, and some of the reasons cited undoubtably play a role.
2. You ask how one is to determine whether someone is an habitual sinner vs someone who is just struggling with a weakness and "back-sliding". It's a valid question, no doubt. However, in the case of an openly gay person or a church that states they are accepting openly gay people as Christian members of their church, and certainly in the case of married gay couples --- there is NO attempt to repent from the sin. The view is that it is OK, so the question you asked is moot in that situation.

Lastly, while we never should presume to pronounce final judgment on any other person and we all should be slow to condemn and quicker to realize our own faults --- this idea that the Church hierarchy should just ignore clearly sinning brothers and "just leave it to God" is clearly contrary to NT Christian doctrine.

But again, why this sin over others? And we've only talked about sins of commission and not sins of omission. We are all sinners. Why focus on this one?

 

[poke2001]

That’s not good enough for the LGBTQ fascists. They are trying to get this stuff taught in public schools as “healthy and normal.” It is neither.

Well, I can agree many in the LGBT community are forcing stuff like this, and that’s not good. The vast majority, however, just want to live their life like all of us.

 

[AC_Exotic]

But again, why this sin over others? And we've only talked about sins of commission and not sins of omission. We are all sinners. Why focus on this one?

Because this is the big issue in culture today.

Attempts are being made in music, movies, and education to normalize the behavior.

Not much was said in churches when this issue was not at the forefront. What you're seeing is pushback.

Now I believe in the context of scripture, the teaching to repent of the sin of homosexuality is "in house." In other words, just for Christians. People who don't know Jesus obviously have the freedom to choose what they want.

 

[Ostatedchi]

Because this is the big issue in culture today.

Attempts are being made in music, movies, and education to normalize the behavior.

Not much was said in churches when this issue was not at the forefront. What you're seeing is pushback.

Now I believe in the context of scripture, the teaching to repent of the sin of homosexuality is "in house." In other words, just for Christians. People who don't know Jesus obviously have the freedom to choose what they want.

I agree we are seeing push back from the church. But again, why? So what if homosexuality becomes normalized in current culture? I just don't see how that's a sin greater than any other. It isn't like they are committing apostacy. Since we all sinners, why focus on theirs instead of working on the plank in our own eyes?

Why do churches now have female ministers when Paul teaches us to not suffer women to teach the men? Why the cherry picking or ranking of sins?

I just don't see Christ shunning homosexuals.

 

[07pilt]

I have to get some stuff done at the house but will come back to this later. I will leave you with this.

Mathew 18:15-17
15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.”

I assume your church allows gentiles and tax collectors to be members.

 

[AC_Exotic]

Why do some churches have women serving as pastors? Because they don't take 1 Timothy seriously.

 

[Ostatedchi]

Why do some churches have women serving as pastors? Because they don't take 1 Timothy seriously.

Fair enough. Is that okay?

 

[PDT816]

I agree we are seeing push back from the church. But again, why? So what if homosexuality becomes normalized in current culture? I just don't see how that's a sin greater than any other. It isn't like they are committing apostacy. Since we all sinners, why focus on theirs instead of working on the plank in our own eyes?

Why do churches now have female ministers when Paul teaches us to not suffer women to teach the men? Why the cherry picking or ranking of sins?

I just don't see Christ shunning homosexuals.

They aren't just homosexuals, they are heritics.

 

[07pilt]

Fair enough. Is that okay?

First Timothy is disputed as a forgery so I would say yes.

 

[AC_Exotic]

1 Cor. 6:9-11 is very clear on the subject. Paul then adds, "And such were some of you ..."

 

[AC_Exotic]

First Timothy is disputed as a forgery so I would say yes.

By liberals that are looking for an escape clause.

There is no argument against Pauline authorship of 1 Timothy that doesn't have a reasonable answer.

 

[imprimis]

By liberals that are looking for an escape clause.

There is no argument against Pauline authorship of 1 Timothy that doesn't have a reasonable answer.

They don't like what Romans says either.

 

[07pilt]

By liberals that are looking for an escape clause.

There is no argument against Pauline authorship of 1 Timothy that doesn't have a reasonable answer.

Good thing we can all just go to different churches instead of having a war over it.

 

[Ostatedchi]

They aren't just homosexuals, they are heritics.

Eeek. And what should be done with heretics?

 

[AC_Exotic]

Eeek. And what should be done with heretics?

 

[imprimis]

Can never go wrong with Monty Python.

 

[brtinla]

I have been asked to chime in and I will:

How do you Methodists, Baptists, Lutherans, evangelijcals or whatever the hell you want to call yourselves (you all just believe what you want to believe in the end) Christians when you know that that term is fast becoming a joke? Most of you just accepted what your parents believed and have never and will never question it.

You are not a Christian if you believe what you want and never do the slightest bit of research into the history of the faith.

It is absurd to believe that the One True Faith, started by Christ himself, who made Peter the First Pope was and is wrong for thousands of years until a clearly mad Priest named Luther led a revolt that led to 33,000 different Christian sects and counting.

Christ's Church is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. It never changes.

Protestants always change thier beliefs. Read what the Methodists or Baptists believed even 100 years ago. They always change. They are led by the demonic, which means to divide. Christ prayed at the first Mass (the last Supper) that we all be one. You are opposing Christ and pleasing Satan when you attend anything other than a Catholic mass on Sundays.

 

[wyomingosualum]

I have been asked to chime in and I will:

How do you Methodists, Baptists, Lutherans, evangelijcals or whatever the hell you want to call yourselves (you all just believe what you want to believe in the end) Christians when you know that that term is fast becoming a joke? Most of you just accepted what your parents believed and have never and will never question it.

You are not a Christian if you believe what you want and never do the slightest bit of research into the history of the faith.

It is absurd to believe that the One True Faith, started by Christ himself, who made Peter the First Pope was and is wrong for thousands of years until a clearly mad Priest named Luther led a revolt that led to 33,000 different Christian sects and counting.

Christ's Church is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. It never changes.

Protestants always change thier beliefs. Read what the Methodists or Baptists believed even 100 years ago. They always change. They are led by the demonic, which means to divide. Christ prayed at the first Mass (the last Supper) that we all be one. You are opposing Christ and pleasing Satan when you attend anything other than a Catholic mass on Sundays.

My supply of indulgences runneth low. Whatcha got?

 

[HighStickHarry]

Oh boy

 

[Ostatedchi]

I have been asked to chime in and I will:

How do you Methodists, Baptists, Lutherans, evangelijcals or whatever the hell you want to call yourselves (you all just believe what you want to believe in the end) Christians when you know that that term is fast becoming a joke? Most of you just accepted what your parents believed and have never and will never question it.

You are not a Christian if you believe what you want and never do the slightest bit of research into the history of the faith.

It is absurd to believe that the One True Faith, started by Christ himself, who made Peter the First Pope was and is wrong for thousands of years until a clearly mad Priest named Luther led a revolt that led to 33,000 different Christian sects and counting.

Christ's Church is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. It never changes.

Protestants always change thier beliefs. Read what the Methodists or Baptists believed even 100 years ago. They always change. They are led by the demonic, which means to divide. Christ prayed at the first Mass (the last Supper) that we all be one. You are opposing Christ and pleasing Satan when you attend anything other than a Catholic mass on Sundays.

So no homosexuals allowed in the Holy Catholic Church?

 

[brtinla]

The reason I lash out at Protestants is because we would not have such stupid, absurd arguments over clearly good and evil like infanticide and sodomy had the Protestant revolt not happened and allowed doubt over settled doctrine to enter the culture.

 

[MegaPoke]

So no homosexuals allowed in the Holy Catholic Church?

And lesbians.

 

[brtinla]

So no homosexuals allowed in the Holy Catholic Church?

Christ DESTROYED two entire cities, Sodom And Ghomarahh over Homosexuality. Demons are so disgusted that even they flee. While they are thoroughly debased, the act is so against Natural Law that even they are horrified.

Romans 1:26-27

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

 

[Ostatedchi]

Christ DESTROYED two entire cities, Sodom And Ghomarahh over Homosexuality. Demons are so disgusted that even they flee. While they are thoroughly debased, the act is so against Natural Law that even they are horrified.

Romans 1:26-27

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

But does the Holy Catholic Church allow openly homosexual Christians to be a part of the church?

 

[brtinla]

But does the Holy Catholic Church allow openly homosexual Christians to be a part of the church?

The Church is led my sinful men and has always and will always do sinful things. We only know 2 things about the Church.

1) It will never err on doctrine.
2) It will never be destroyed.

We have the promise of Christ on that that the gates of hell will never prevail.

But Christ has only one bride, the Catholic Church. No other Church has that promise.

 

[Ostatedchi]

The Church is led my sinful men and has always and will always do sinful things. We only know 2 things about the Church.

1) It will never err on doctrine.
2) It will never be destroyed.

We have the promise of Christ on that that the gates of hell will never prevail.

But Christ has only one bride, the Catholic Church. No other Church has that promise.

I swear I'm not being obtuse. I just can't tell if that's a 'yes' or a 'no'.

 

[AC_Exotic]

Was Simon Peter's wife in support of him becoming the first Pope?

 

[07pilt]

Gotta say brtnla makes a pretty good case