Everyone is talking about RTC but NIL is the biggest issue now. That’s where we need the money going.
HS Recruiting News
- Thread starter DEWrestlingFan
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Ohio State has thrown a significant amount of money into their wrestling program the last few years. I agree NIL is important but don’t dismiss the importance of RTC. Look at who RBY has in his room then look at Fix’s training partners.
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I hope you are wrong but the last 10 years seem to show we are far far away from being a real title contender .
I think RTC was the driver for recruiting and development. Now NIL also drives recruiting.
PSU had a huge advantage for years because they had millions in RTC assets. Rob Koll said it was the reason for their success and why he focused on fundraising rather than teaching technique in practice. NIL opened the door and I think we're seeing teams like OhioSt, Iowa & Michigan take advantage of it.
Thomas Gilman, Zain Retherford, Nick Lee, Josh Rodriguez and Jordan Conaway.
On the RTC vs NIL thing, obviously you want both. But getting the elite recruit is the key. It's more important than having elite training partners IMO.
It's definitely true that RBY has great partners compared to Daton. But then look at AJ. He had basically no training partners at OSU, just incredible talent. PSU had Michael Beard, the #12 recruit in 2018. Beard had 3 Olympic champs for training partners - Cael, Jake Varner & Snyder (plus 2 age level World champs - Kerkvliet & Brooks). And there was no way Beard was going to beat AJ. Cael knew that. Fortunately for him NCAA finalist Dean transferred in and AJ got bounced.
Edit: actually 4 Olympic champs, also David Taylor
It's definitely true that RBY has great partners compared to Daton. But then look at AJ. He had basically no training partners at OSU, just incredible talent. PSU had Michael Beard, the #12 recruit in 2018. Beard had 3 Olympic champs for training partners - Cael, Jake Varner & Snyder (plus 2 age level World champs - Kerkvliet & Brooks). And there was no way Beard was going to beat AJ. Cael knew that. Fortunately for him NCAA finalist Dean transferred in and AJ got bounced.
Edit: actually 4 Olympic champs, also David Taylor
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AJ is obviously the exception to the rule. He’s far and away athletically superior than anyone at his weight class and was the day he walked onto campus. AJs just don’t come around every day.
The key to winning championships is taking really good wrestlers and making them elite. Training with world class wrestlers obviously assists in making that jump. I don’t discount Carl’s coaching. I also don’t discount the value of training with the guys in their room. We can’t have Cael. I would like to have similar quality in our room. That is something we do have some control over. It’s necessary for 35 imo.
Getting elite recruits isn’t the silver bullet anymore. There are so many more high level guys coming out of HS now and the gap between elite and very good is much smaller.
What has proven to be the most critical component of building a championship team in the current landscape of college wrestling is development of those recruits once they get to campus. It’s where we have struggled and PSU has excelled.
A big reason for that is the additional coaches and training partners PSU has for their guys. They are sharpened, developed and prepared by senior level guys who are grown men competing at the highest levels internationally.
RBY vs Daton is a great example of this.
Yeah, I'm not sure about that with NIL now.
Everyone agrees the RTC was key to PSU's success - it pulled in the elite recruits and then developed many (not all) of them into monsters. Every school (except us) tried to replicate that model - Rob Koll literally said it - but they didn't have the $.
With NIL guys are getting $ sooner. They don't have to wait until graduation to get a signing bonus from the RTC. How does that impact recruiting? Do recruits go for the NIL now? Look at Ohio St - they brought in 3 top 5 guys this year - Feldman, Bouzakis & Mendez. In the past those guys may have gone to PSU. There is no guarantee that PSU can take a really good recruit and develop them into someone that can beat those 3. If you believe the rumors PSU knows this, which is why Bo Nickal reportedly tried to get Feldman to flip. They also put David Taylor on the board of their NIL collective. They understand the importance.
Here's the way I see it. You want the top 10 PFP recruits and then you want to surround them with great partners. Everyone wants that. But if you don't get the elite recruit because of NIL, you won't win no matter how good the training partners are.
I don’t disagree. The elite programs going forward will have both imo. You’re also going to see more wrestlers celebrating wins and bringing attention to themselves do to NIL opportunities. It’s a new world out there.
You are preaching to the choir. Has anyone complained about PSU & RTCs (and our lack of one) more than me on this board?
The question is how does NIL impact recruiting now. How about this...what would you rather have - the #2 PFP recruit and no RTC or the #20 PFP recruit and the best RTC? I want the #2 guy.
I would say we do have a elite wrestler in the room. His name is Daton Fix. World Silver medalist, one of the top ranked 61kg FS wrestlers in the world. Obviously hasn't quite made his mark winning a national title yet, but he is I think by the definition elite. And here's the kicker, he's in the room every day (hopefully) working out with Mastro and Carter. And what type of development have we seen from Mastro over the 3 years he's been here? Very little IMO. I think the right coaching has to be the priority over quality RTC workout partners. I'm not saying one is more important than the other, but I do think one needs to be address before the other. Cael is a great coach on both college and international levels, that's why guys are moving there.
Maybe now 2 to 20 but give me a top 10 to 15 PFP guy that I can throw into a strong room filled with senior level studs over the #2 PFP guy in room without that.
Development is key now. The gap between 2 and 10-15 is as small as it’s ever been. Elite development is what is winning titles now. You can look at our roster and see what lack of development will get you. We have plenty of elite recruits on the roster and that have come through over the past 4-5 years and we haven’t won a title.
RBY and Witlake were in the same class and Witlake was viewed as the bigger recruiting win and look where they both are. Look at RBY vs Daton. Daton was as can’t miss of a prospect as you will find. One guy has two titles and one guy has none.
Flo had Daton #1, but he was far better at freestyle than folkstyle coming out of HS. A Junior World champ, yes, but he went to Super32 twice and finished 2nd & 4th. RBY was #15 because he took a loss at WNO his senior year. I think it was pretty obvious he was a special athlete. Sure, he's improved tremendously in the PSU room, but I don't think they can do that with every #15 guy. Kaden for example was also #15. I don't think he has 2 titles if he went there.
Just going to have to disagree on this one ...
We are struggling in developing blue chip recruits into national champion wrestlers. There isn’t much argument there.
It’s either culture, coaching tactics, or lack of an RTC or some combination of each.
Lee is done but finished as a 5 time AA and 2 time national champ. Another great example of the difference between the development of the two programs.
That pin of Nick Lee was at the Scuffle during Kaden's true freshman year.
Here's something else to consider - evaluating/projecting recruits...
Chad Red beat Nick Lee in the Indiana state final. There were rumors that Red was very interested in PSU, but he ended up at Nebraska. Nick Lee went to PSU with his brothers. Chad Red was #6 PFP in the 2016 class. Nick Lee was #9 PFP in the 2017 class. Lee had the far better career obviously. Did PSU see something that made them go with Lee over Red? They definitely hit more than they miss.
Why would Daton be "developing" Carter and Mastro? Daton is just one guy with his own goals. They may drill together and pick up some things just by being around each other, but there's no way its equivalent to having an arsenal of been-there-done-that post-college guys in the room. But imagine if we had Daton, Dean Heil, Dieringer, Derek White, and any other OSU guys trying to make Olympic teams in the room? What if that momentum attracted retired guys like DC and Pat Smith to the room to help out? What if we had those guys plus Nolf and Nickal and Retherford? Like many others it seems like a multi pronged approach is needed - assessing our coaching, embracing the RTC, getting senior level guys in there, embracing the transfer portal, beefing up administrative support.
I’m guessing you think it will be embarrassing. Obviously they wouldn’t wrestle us in GIA.
Ohio State has stacked up a ton of talent, with 9 top 10 p4p recruits on their roster, yet finished a spot ahead of Oklahoma State at NCAAs last season. They have every resource in the world. Great facilities. NIL opportunities. A well funded RTC. What are the similarities between Ohio State and Oklahoma State? Figuring that out, and then pivoting towards Penn State instead of towards Ohio State and Oklahoma State, is probably the key.
It’s a different type of developing. When you’re getting your butt kicked everyday by someone like Daton, you either quit or get tired of it and figure out how not to. The saying Iron sharpens iron might be relevant here. Especially with someone like Carter who needs to get tougher according to coach smith.
Just look at Haas last year for example. He was working out with AJ everyday and rumor had it he eventually started getting to his legs and taking him down. I think AJ got taken down 1 time while wrestling in orange.
We stole 2 top recruits from Penn. St in Marsteller and Wittlake. Both were committed to Penn. St. but somehow we got them away from Penn. St. I believe Penn. St in their interactions with these 2 picked up on qualities or lack of qualities where they sort of let them go. Penn. St has a coaching staff that picks up on qualities that lead to National Champions and world class wrestlers. Some wrestlers have a drive to be great and some just say the words. Yes Nick Lee is an example, RBY is and Starocci is another example of not great wrestlers in high school but whatever Penn. St. does they followed with enthusiasm and hard work.
But our wrestlers are national champion partiers, at least some anyways. G could have been really good. I like him even now because he has a puncher‘s chance a lot of the time. Too bad he blew his chance to be really good, but glad he turned it around. Interesting that Joe is a HS coach now….did he have a life change? Several of our guys haven’t had the personal discipline required to excel. I bet it was a complete s#4t show with Ferrari.
They struggle to develop their top guys similar to us. While they have an RTC it is lacking athletes. It isn’t near the level of what PSU is doing.
The blueprint is there IMO. Go attract and retain some of the best senior level athletes in the world and have them train with the college guys.
Saw an interview with Mastro where he mentioned that training with Daton is one of the reasons he chose OSU. Also said he measures his progress by how much he scores on him (or how close he gets).
In that same interview he said the original plan was for him to go 133. I wonder if the weight cut is behind some of his troubles. Maybe the injuries last year too.
Penn St. has created a very healthy culture around winning in their room. They have dominated college wrestling the last 10 years and any freshman that walks into those doors knows it and wants to be apart of and continue that success. OSU on the other hand somewhere along the road has lost that attitude you need to cultivate that winning culture in the room. It’s about pride, effort and confidence that you know you’re going to win. That you have to win and will do anything in your power to win. This is something I haven’t seen much of the last two duals. Or really any the last 2 years.
They did win a Title in 2015 and I suspect they will finish way ahead of us the next two years so at this point I wish we could say that.
At this point, a redshirt next year and a season at 133 when Fix is gone seems ideal. Don’t know if it will happen or not.
Sure. They kinda won that title in spite of themselves with two champs and five AAs. Don't think that production will win titles anymore.
I think they're staring at 3 AAs this year too. Probably will finish about the same with us.
Regardless that's obviously not the model. As @osu2082 said.
Another similarity between OSU & OhioSt - both have been absolutely terrible on bottom lately.
From 2015-19, OhioSt finished 1,3,2,2,2 at Nationals. That's ain't too bad. 2020 was canceled, then they fell back the last couple of seasons. During that time, Snyder left for PSU & Kerkvliet followed. They also had a coaching change when Tervel Dlagnev went to Nebraska.
Their RTC is ok, not great. Kollin Moore & Amar Dhesi right now. Myles Martin and Evan Henderson until very recently.
They've always recruited well. They had 14 top 10 PFP recruits from 2013-2021. But that's picked up. In the past 2 years they have 4 top 10 PFP recruits. Top 5 actually. They may have struggled developing guys recently, but it's hard to imagine that continuing with that type of talent coming in. I think they will be a big threat going forward.
From 2015-19, OhioSt finished 1,3,2,2,2 at Nationals. That's ain't too bad. 2020 was canceled, then they fell back the last couple of seasons. During that time, Snyder left for PSU & Kerkvliet followed. They also had a coaching change when Tervel Dlagnev went to Nebraska.
Their RTC is ok, not great. Kollin Moore & Amar Dhesi right now. Myles Martin and Evan Henderson until very recently.
They've always recruited well. They had 14 top 10 PFP recruits from 2013-2021. But that's picked up. In the past 2 years they have 4 top 10 PFP recruits. Top 5 actually. They may have struggled developing guys recently, but it's hard to imagine that continuing with that type of talent coming in. I think they will be a big threat going forward.
I like the trajectory of Ohio State. They just completed a new wrestling facility. They signed 3 of the top 5 recruits in the country in the 2022 class. Now can the upgrade the talent in their RTC? Can they develop the kids they’re signing into elite college wrestlers? Next 2-3 years in Columbus is going to be very interesting to watch.
Yeah they've been doing that. 2017, 2018, 2019, and 2021 they signed a ton of top 10-30 guys. Roster is littered with them. And they're going to lose a dual to UNI this weekend.
They've had the same trajectory as Oklahoma State. Basically identical except they have a shiny facility that they share with volleyball.
The main difference is they have a more defined and setup RTC which might give them an edge over us in the immediate future.
But like us, they will need to really ramp up their RTC if they want to win another title. The blueprint is in Happy Valley. Catch up or fall back.
There's literally no difference between the two. The websites are virtually identical. The only difference is that one of their senior level athletes wrestled D1 instead of D2 the way Noel did.
Kyle Snyder left because he didn't feel that Ryan supported the RTC. And, if the rumors are true, Tom Ryan votes exactly the same way John Smith has on RTCs and their influence.
OSU has signed the #2 and #4 p4p recruits in the 2023 class. Recruiting just isn't a blocker. There is nothing that Oklahoma State doesn't have that is keeping recruits from signing with OSU. Facilities, RTC, NIL... Both Ohio State and Oklahoma State have it... how do you make these guys multiple time national champs? All comes down to development. Both programs are lacking in this area. Is it not having senior level athletes in the room training and coaching the college guys? Seems like it.
