Does God intervene?

[Marshal Jim Duncan]

I know what rabbi means and I know that he is referred to as a rabbi. So?

How does that make his words "in keeping what one would likely hear from any rabbi back in that time."

 

[hollywood]

Ok, so I'll amend my answer - 90% of what he is PURPORTED to have said would be consistent with what one would have likely heard from any number of Rabbi's back in his time.

 

[twiza]

Does god put souls in horrific situations with the promise of grace eternal life? I guess from God's perspective 13 years of being a child prostitute and being murdered may seem like nothing compared to eternal life. However, that would create a problem for many who claim that the only way to heaven is if you accept Jesus as you savior.

 

[Marshal Jim Duncan]

So, how do you reconcile the rest? Was he crazy? A liar?

 

[Marshal Jim Duncan]

Does god put souls in horrific situations with the promise of grace eternal life? I guess from God's perspective 13 years of being a child prostitute and being murdered may seem like nothing compared to eternal life. However, that would create a problem for many who claim that the only way to heaven is if you accept Jesus as you savior.

Could you explain? How does that "create a problem for many who claim that the only way to heaven is if you accept Jesus as you(r) savior"?

 

[twiza]

Could you explain? How does that "create a problem for many who claim that the only way to heaven is if you accept Jesus as you(r) savior"?

I hear many evangelicals claim that if you didn't say a pray and accept Jesus into your heart then I'm sorry eternity isn't going to be good for you. The thought that God would put people in horrible situations without the possibility of eternal life seems fairly sick. I apologize, many of my interactions has exposed me to a wide spectrum of Christians.

On a side note: I like this board and the variety of opinions. I find it unfortunate that I meet so many people who shy away from these discussions.

 

[Marshal Jim Duncan]

I think the way you have explained it is unfortunately an accurate portrayal of the rather simplistic understanding that many who label themselves evangelicals have of the process.

On the other hand, I think it is clear that it IS a tenet of orthodox Christianity that there is no other way to the Father except through Christ.

 

[tcpoke]

I don't claim to to have an answer for that either. I would question anyone who says that they do. The simple truth is that no one knows what path is going to lead them to God. Scripture, and my own experience, tells me that a life of luxury is the quickest way into deceiving yourself that you need nothing and that you owe nothing. A difficult life forces you to accept that fact that there are some things that are just out of your control and that you need help, it teaches humility. For the Christian, a life of luxury can be a curse, and a life of suffering can be a blessing. I like this parable from Luke:

19“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30“‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Luxury was a poor choice of word on my part. Opportunity would have been a better word for my question.

 

[Marshal Jim Duncan]

Luxury was a poor choice of word on my part. Opportunity would have been a better word for my question.

All of us here in this discussion are incredibly blessed, some more than others obviously. A lot of it, for many of us anyway, has little or nothing to do with our own efforts. It has to do with being born in the time and place we were born, which is what you are getting at it, I believe. While it is totally unmerited, I don't believe it is dumb luck.

 

[tcpoke]

All of us here in this discussion are incredibly blessed, some more than others obviously. A lot of it, for many of us anyway, has little or nothing to do with our own efforts. It has to do with being born in the time and place we were born, which is what you are getting at it, I believe. While it is totally unmerited, I don't believe it is dumb luck.

Exactly. My problem/question is why does God allow for polar ends of the spectrum when no child deserves to be born into either one of them?

Eternal questions.....good for discussion bad for sleep.

 

[Orange Jennyslipper]

Using a source to prove the source is weak. Do Muslims not quote the Koran as proof of God's love of Mohammed? Do Mormons not quote from their holy book as proof of their own righteousness? Any Christian who belittles other religions for that reason needs to have a look at the beam in their own eye.

No one knows whether Jesus was a god, a half-god, an insightful teacher, was crazy or a liar. We really "know" nothing about him. Things that are attributed to him, both actions and words, were written decades after his supposed life by people who were not witnesses. Even if they had been there, what is the liklihood of their accurately writing verbatim what was said 60, 80, 90 years before?

How many times were those versions altered, edited and tweeked by lowly humans before they were written down? How many changes were made, accidentally or otherwise, during the hundreds of years of being copied by hand by a church hell-bent on maintaining control of its flock?

(Ever wonder why the church resisted allowing Gutenberg to print the Bible for the masses?)

We just don't know Jesus. How many times was the gospel "adjusted" in the three centuries before all the vested interests got together to pick and chose what went into the bible and what was to be labeled heresy at the Nicene council? Who were those guys? (We know women had no input in those days. Do they 1700 years later?)

As has been mentioned here since I began writing this post, there's plenty of injustice and things that just don't seem fair in god's world. But it's ok, we're told, because all the horrible things that happen to children and the difference between being a gutter rat-child in Rio or a banker in Tulsa was God's will.

Yep, that's the god I want worship.

 

[Marshal Jim Duncan]

Using a source to prove the source is weak. Do Muslims not quote the Koran as proof of God's love of Mohammed? Do Mormons not quote from their holy book as proof of their own righteousness? Any Christian who belittles other religions for that reason needs to have a look at the beam in their own eye.

No one knows whether Jesus was a god, a half-god, an insightful teacher, was crazy or a liar. We really "know" nothing about him. Things that are attributed to him, both actions and words, were written decades after his supposed life by people who were not witnesses. Even if they had been there, what is the liklihood of their accurately writing verbatim what was said 60, 80, 90 years before?

How many times were those versions altered, edited and tweeked by lowly humans before they were written down? How many changes were made, accidentally or otherwise, during the hundreds of years of being copied by hand by a church hell-bent on maintaining control of its flock?

(Ever wonder why the church resisted allowing Gutenberg to print the Bible for the masses?)

We just don't know Jesus. How many times was the gospel "adjusted" in the three centuries before all the vested interests got together to pick and chose what went into the bible and what was to be labeled heresy at the Nicene council? Who were those guys? (We know women had no input in those days. Do they 1700 years later?)

As has been mentioned here since I began writing this post, there's plenty of injustice and things that just don't seem fair in god's world. But it's ok, we're told, because all the horrible things that happen to children and the difference between being a gutter rat-child in Rio or a banker in Tulsa was God's will.

Yep, that's the god I want worship.

You're free to choose to worship whatever god you want or none at all. How well would that go over in IS territory? Your thoughts that religion is becoming more pervasive in today's American society than it was 50, 100, 150, 200, 250 years ago is laughably off base.

 

[Marshal Jim Duncan]

If you will stipulate for a moment that there is one deity in control of the earth and the universe (which I recognize you do not believe) -- does it not stand to reason that you would not get to choose how it is he carries out his will and on what terms you will worship him?

 

[Orange Jennyslipper]

If there were a single deity which had created the universe and everything in it, does it not stand to reason that he would have made it very clear to all the peoples of all the nations what he expects of them to earn (or be preordained to receive, according to some Christians) life everlasting in Heaven? I'm not asking for a vote on he handles things, I just want to know what he wants. Is that really too much to ask? Why are there so many gray areas and why do Christians get stuck trying to gloss over them?

How about an update, God? We seem to have become confused about you meant when you passed your word down to a bunch of illiterate sheep-herders 2,000 years ago.

Seriously, do you believe a god would be so ambiguous in his demands that a huge percentage of the people who are trying to obey his commandments would be sentenced to hell because the denomination of their parents (most kids follow in their parents' footsteps in "choosing" a church) had misinterpreted their holy book? Why does the book need interpretation?

The universe is an indescribably magnificent place. Surely an entity powerful enough to create it could get his point across to the lowly beings he created to inhabit it.

 

[Marshal Jim Duncan]

The universe is an indescribably magnificent place. Yet you believe it happened by accident. How could God produce any book that could ever have a hope of convincing you?

 

[Orange Jennyslipper]

And you believe a being who looks just like us snapped his fingers and bang, there's the universe? The difference is there's some evidence to support my belief. You've got the Bible, and then you've got...well, you've got the Bible.

I don't agree with the song they taught us as children, "Gimme that old-time religion, it was good enough for Grandpa and it's good enough for me." People who lived in OT times came up with some pretty amazing, but incredibly wrong, explanations for how the world worked.

The god Moses and Abraham envisioned 3,500-4,500 years ago was sufficient for their times.

 

[Marshal Jim Duncan]

And you believe a being who looks just like us snapped his fingers and bang, there's the universe? The difference is there's some evidence to support my belief. You've got the Bible, and then you've got...well, you've got the Bible.

I don't agree with the song they taught us as children, "Gimme that old-time religion, it was good enough for Grandpa and it's good enough for me." People who lived in OT times came up with some pretty amazing, but incredibly wrong, explanations for how the world worked.

The god Moses and Abraham envisioned 3,500-4,500 years ago was sufficient for their times.

No, I really don't. Why are you so angry that someone believes differently than you?

And with every utterance you feel the need to assume you know everything that I or others believe about the world and you feel the need to constantly puff yourself up and crow about how enlightened and intelligent you are. Seems like a sure sign of insecurity.

 

[Orange Jennyslipper]

I don't see any anger in rereading my posts and none was intended. I'm stating my beliefs like everyone else in the thread.

I've never seen a religious person here state their beliefs and then say, "Oh, I don't know if that's right or just malarkey." They state their beliefs as fact. I'm just expressing the same confidence.

If that makes me the arrogant person you describe above, so be it, I guess. It's a common retort from the religious that atheists "think they know everything."

On the contrary, reasonable people change their stance when new evidence shows the old evidence to be wrong. It happens all the time in science because all knowledge is in flux.

In six decades on this wonderful world, I've never seen or read about a scientist who thinks they have all the answers to anything.

Most religionists seem to take great pride in never changing their stance on anything within their belief system, apparently because they think bowing to new evidence makes them look weak. And I guess it reflects badly on the infallible word of God.

Btw, you were the first to put words in my mouth...

Yet you believe it happened by accident.

I never said anything of the sort. I don't know how it happened. The jury will be out on that one well past my lifetime.

As for anger, I'll admit that people pushing for creationism to be taught in science classes alongside evolution as though there is a legitimate "controversy" makes me mad.