Does God intervene?
- Thread starter HighStickHarry
- Start date
No.
It's pathetic for people to thank god for winning football games, finding car keys or postponing a major exam while children are molested, murdered or starve to death amid enormous wealth.
I was infuriated by someone who claimed god was looking out for him and his family because they were not standing in the path of the car that killed people at homecoming. So his god lined up those fatalities, including the little boy, to be sure they all died that day??
You don't get anywhere calling people out for such thoughts, so I don't bother.
The idea that god spends any time hovering over every little thing that you do every minute of the day is the very definition of arrogance. Where will those people say their god was on the day he punches their dance card with cancer, an out-of-control dump truck or a bullet intended for someone else?
It's pathetic for people to thank god for winning football games, finding car keys or postponing a major exam while children are molested, murdered or starve to death amid enormous wealth.
I was infuriated by someone who claimed god was looking out for him and his family because they were not standing in the path of the car that killed people at homecoming. So his god lined up those fatalities, including the little boy, to be sure they all died that day??
You don't get anywhere calling people out for such thoughts, so I don't bother.
The idea that god spends any time hovering over every little thing that you do every minute of the day is the very definition of arrogance. Where will those people say their god was on the day he punches their dance card with cancer, an out-of-control dump truck or a bullet intended for someone else?
You're another atheist consumed with other people's beliefs, huh? Seems that your problem is with other people, not God.
Since there's no god, that just leaves the behaviors of those consumed by religion to shake my head at. Atheists aren't "consumed" by religion except in those societies which insist on shoving it in their faces every day.
The Bible makes it clear that he does, in both the Old and New Testaments. I consider myself a devout Christian, and I have my doubts about how much he actually intervenes in our day to day lives. The closest I have seen to that are two examples, both of which happened in the last year. One example was my uncle another was a good friend of mine. Both were given the "you have so much time get your things in order" speeches from doctors yet both are cancer free today and both are devout Christians. They both credit God, in the back of my mind I always wonder was it the treatments they were getting or a miraculous healing, or God working through the treatments? I guess that is where faith comes into play. They went through it, they credit God so I'll take their word for it.
I also think it is important to understand that Christians and atheists do not carry the same view of this life so an argument that "bad things happen so there is no God" does not carry much weight to a Christian. To a Christian the bad things of life are temporary to an atheist they are eternal. When you don't agree on the definitions or ramifications of an event you can't have a reasonable debate. I will say, and I am sure this is completely framed by my spiritual view, that good times never made me a better person. The hard things in life make you a better person.
I have zero doubt I am a happier person because of my belief in God. I have zero doubt that I am a more giving person because of my belief in God. So if when I die it turns out I'm wrong, I'll have no regrets because I was happier believing in a lie.....and I won't feel stupid because I'll be dead and I won't know the difference.
I also think it is important to understand that Christians and atheists do not carry the same view of this life so an argument that "bad things happen so there is no God" does not carry much weight to a Christian. To a Christian the bad things of life are temporary to an atheist they are eternal. When you don't agree on the definitions or ramifications of an event you can't have a reasonable debate. I will say, and I am sure this is completely framed by my spiritual view, that good times never made me a better person. The hard things in life make you a better person.
I have zero doubt I am a happier person because of my belief in God. I have zero doubt that I am a more giving person because of my belief in God. So if when I die it turns out I'm wrong, I'll have no regrets because I was happier believing in a lie.....and I won't feel stupid because I'll be dead and I won't know the difference.
Always interesting that an atheist feels compelled to give his opinion on God's character or actions...how does that happen if you don't even believe He exists? Good post Neek.
Why does God allow children to suffer years of physical/mental/sexual abuse at the hands of fellow man, yet allows others to live perfectly normal/happy lives? Why do huge numbers of people starve to death each year yet so many eat to excess?
These are the types of struggles I face when considering the idea of a loving God. I hate it (the struggle) as there are also so many wonderful/awe inspiring things in this world as well.
These are the types of struggles I face when considering the idea of a loving God. I hate it (the struggle) as there are also so many wonderful/awe inspiring things in this world as well.
Like western Iraq and eastern Syria?
Actually, I could probably help you out here. There are approximately 2.7 billion topics that I care nothing about, and don't post about, and haven't taken a position on. And certainly don't browbeat others who do care about them about how silly they are for caring about them. All I can say is that I'm just good at ignoring those 2.7 billion things, not sure how or why, I just am. Let me know where you feel like you're getting tripped up on this thing you don't believe or care about, and I'll try and assist.
Atheists sometimes feel compelled to point out god's apparent lack of character, Cordell.
Neek says both the OT and the NT says that god intervenes. He offers anecdotal evidence that makes him believe god does. I can offer anecdotal evidence that he doesn't.
A person's feelings about whether god intervenes depends entirely on when and where they were born. Multiple religions believing vastly different things on the subject doesn't inspire much confidence in any of them.
Since all religions can't be right on the subject (or many others) some or all are obviously wrong. Everyone's free to pick one or none since it doesn't matter anyway.
Btw, I've never heard any atheist argue "bad things happen, therefore there is no god." Bad things happening to good people are just one aspect of disbelief. Why do you think the book of Job is included in the Bible?
edit -- italics
Neek says both the OT and the NT says that god intervenes. He offers anecdotal evidence that makes him believe god does. I can offer anecdotal evidence that he doesn't.
A person's feelings about whether god intervenes depends entirely on when and where they were born. Multiple religions believing vastly different things on the subject doesn't inspire much confidence in any of them.
Since all religions can't be right on the subject (or many others) some or all are obviously wrong. Everyone's free to pick one or none since it doesn't matter anyway.
Btw, I've never heard any atheist argue "bad things happen, therefore there is no god." Bad things happening to good people are just one aspect of disbelief. Why do you think the book of Job is included in the Bible?
edit -- italics
Last edited:
Tons, great to hear you support Sharia law being imposed on the world. I completely agree with you. I sincerely want some religious zealots telling me and my family how to live.
I'm amused by this discourse, but that response is not your best.
Let me just say that your inability to discern your blessing of living in a country founded on Judeo-Christian principles with a very strong "live and let live" culture, when contrasted against the stark, evil barbarism in other parts of the world, would truly stun a Mastodon. Fixating on the private beliefs of charitable, kind friends and neighbors with which you share your society seems kind of pathetic and pointless.
A
anon_ph7vrsh7abnty
Guest
I don't believe in anything. Nothing is being "shoved in my face" everyday.
People seem to have a lot of anguish over imaginary things.
It's natural to wonder about these things and quite common to have them cause a struggle of faith.
God isn't "just" love; i.e. he isn't just defined by his expression of love. That impression, or the over-emphasis of "God is love", to the detriment of God's other attributes is largely a function of the modern church.
Most of all, God is Holy. As Rev. 4 says: "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come." And He is sovereign.
Being born to a middle class family in the US versus being born to an impoverished family in Mumbai.
But what is Holy? Why create an Earth and mankind that causes so much suffering and sorrow for those who have no choice in the matter.
I think my struggle is that if He so powerful to create all that is, why not eliminate some of the things that cause suffering and aren't a result of any one choice or decision?
I fully realize that Faith isn't easy, and sometimes the inexplicable are just that. Just thinking out loud about the constant struggle I, and I'm sure many others, think about daily.
(I am Not religious, so most can ignore)
I never really understood the whole god existing or not via god-intervention debate. A god can exist or have existed without constant puppeteering. There is not a forced inclusion there, IMO.
I never really understood the whole god existing or not via god-intervention debate. A god can exist or have existed without constant puppeteering. There is not a forced inclusion there, IMO.
What's sad and pathetic, Tons, is that what ought to be a "private belief" as you call it, has become a public display. I don't mind people praying, but I wish they'd do it where Jesus told them to do it. Why suck me into "Would you all bow your heads and pray with me..."? If I wanted to hear that I'd go to church.
Interesting that not a single word about Judeo-Christianity found it's way into the Constitution. Contrary to what's apparently taught among some groups, the nation was never intended as a theocracy. If we had set up a Christian nation, all the Christian cults, sects and denominations would have been killing each other in the streets over which is the One and True God. Those who actually founded the country didn't want to go down that road. They said keep your gods in your churches where he or she belongs.
Keep the Ten Commandments where they belong, too. Want to put up a monument to them in your yard? Cool. I've got some equipment that will be helpful for dirt work, leveling, pouring a foundation and so on. If you're a neighbor, I'll bring the stuff over and help you. But don't try to put that on public property. No nods to anyone's religion belongs there. If you allow one, you have to allow them all and that's a bottomless can of worms.
The dumbing down of America is not an imaginary thing, adverpoke. When idiots can force apologies and statements like "it's ONLY a theory" to be written into science textbooks as the preface to the chapters on evolution, that's dangerous and it's "in the face" of the nation every day. Science is what made this nation the industrial and technological leader of the world. The religious-led anti-science movement which is gaining ground in America is the most insidious internal enemy we face. We risk falling behind the rest of the world if we chose mythology over scientific fact.
Do I worry about religion destroying America? Yes I do.
Our leadership in the industrialized world is challenged when our scientific education has to be approved by the least scientifically-educated group among us. Evolution is indisputable. It is the basis of all biology and powerful people want it REMOVED from textbooks. I don't want my grandkids to be as uneducated as the grandkids of science deniers.
I don't mind people believing what they want to believe for whatever reason, but no religion has the right to deny scientific facts to the public because the facts don't fit their Bronze Age world view.
Interesting that not a single word about Judeo-Christianity found it's way into the Constitution. Contrary to what's apparently taught among some groups, the nation was never intended as a theocracy. If we had set up a Christian nation, all the Christian cults, sects and denominations would have been killing each other in the streets over which is the One and True God. Those who actually founded the country didn't want to go down that road. They said keep your gods in your churches where he or she belongs.
Keep the Ten Commandments where they belong, too. Want to put up a monument to them in your yard? Cool. I've got some equipment that will be helpful for dirt work, leveling, pouring a foundation and so on. If you're a neighbor, I'll bring the stuff over and help you. But don't try to put that on public property. No nods to anyone's religion belongs there. If you allow one, you have to allow them all and that's a bottomless can of worms.
The dumbing down of America is not an imaginary thing, adverpoke. When idiots can force apologies and statements like "it's ONLY a theory" to be written into science textbooks as the preface to the chapters on evolution, that's dangerous and it's "in the face" of the nation every day. Science is what made this nation the industrial and technological leader of the world. The religious-led anti-science movement which is gaining ground in America is the most insidious internal enemy we face. We risk falling behind the rest of the world if we chose mythology over scientific fact.
Do I worry about religion destroying America? Yes I do.
Our leadership in the industrialized world is challenged when our scientific education has to be approved by the least scientifically-educated group among us. Evolution is indisputable. It is the basis of all biology and powerful people want it REMOVED from textbooks. I don't want my grandkids to be as uneducated as the grandkids of science deniers.
I don't mind people believing what they want to believe for whatever reason, but no religion has the right to deny scientific facts to the public because the facts don't fit their Bronze Age world view.
Yes, I believe God does intervene in situations, but not often. I do believe angels intervene on a more regular basis. I personally believe I have had an angel intervene in my life and not in a faith kind of way. In more of a "concrete" form of intervention.
squeak,
But that doesn't account for a lot of actions/inactions.
For an entity with the attributed powers of "God" (omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience) that being could easily direct events in such a way that would spare a living thing/human in a manner which would play no role in "free will."
For example: Saving someone from a falling rock, flood waters, a bolt of lightening, etc. would be totally within the power of "God" without in most instances violating the "free will" of a person.
But that doesn't account for a lot of actions/inactions.
For an entity with the attributed powers of "God" (omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience) that being could easily direct events in such a way that would spare a living thing/human in a manner which would play no role in "free will."
For example: Saving someone from a falling rock, flood waters, a bolt of lightening, etc. would be totally within the power of "God" without in most instances violating the "free will" of a person.
This is a subject w/ so many perspectives; but here is illustrated my general opinion on what God is capable of doing..... and the question of His will vs. what our stance should as regards Faith.
(from Daniel 3 - KJV)
13Then Nebuchadnezzar in his rage and fury commanded to bring Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Then they brought these men before the king.14Nebuchadnezzar spake and said unto them, Is it true, O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, do not ye serve my gods, nor worship the golden image which I have set up? 15Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made; well: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands?
16Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter. 17If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. 18But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.
19Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego: therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace one seven times more than it was wont to be heated. 20And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace. 21Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. 22Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. 23And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
(from Daniel 3 - KJV)
13Then Nebuchadnezzar in his rage and fury commanded to bring Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Then they brought these men before the king.14Nebuchadnezzar spake and said unto them, Is it true, O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, do not ye serve my gods, nor worship the golden image which I have set up? 15Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made; well: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands?
16Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter. 17If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. 18But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.
19Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego: therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace one seven times more than it was wont to be heated. 20And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace. 21Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. 22Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. 23And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
Wow. I just went back and read the whole thread. Lot of brimstone and sanctimony, but very little knowledge and understanding.
That's my point. Why would some be born into an earthly life of suffering and others born into a life of luxury?
I don't know the complete answer to that. The short answer is that it it's God's will. It can be troubling for sure, but perhaps the proper response is to be humbly grateful if one isn't, one of those born into a life of suffering and to demonstrate that humility and thankfulness every day and by helping others (and believe me, I say that not as someone who does a fantastic job of this myself).
Personally, I find that Romans 9 (among other passages) explains it well:
” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of thim who calls—12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,2 but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,
“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
Squeak,
No, what he said was pretty much in keeping what one would likely hear from any rabbi back in that time.
I am also far from convinced (actually reject) that most of what he said was accurately recorded or did not suffer heavily from editorializing which found its way into the text by the time it was actually "canonized" some 325 yrs or so later at the Council of Nicea.
It's actually Saul/Paul with whom I have the larger problem. I think of him in legal terms as an "officious inter-meddler" as someone who decided it was too dangerous to stay in the tax collecting game and decided to jump into the then growing Christ movement. He was the one who developed (to some degree) the largest role in the organization of the early church and eventually, as far as Christianity's doctrines, canon, and beliefs was the person who got much say in what is now accepted by the church.
Contrast what Paul was claiming/writing with other early churches across the region (Alexandria, Ethiopia, Constantinople, etc.) and across varying creeds (Gnostics, Marcionites, Montanist) had adopted as their own "canon" of what they viewed as "legitimate" scripture and you can see stark contrasts and differences. The entire thing ends up basically boiling down as to who had the largest numbers (popularity contest) by the time of the first ecumenical council (Council of Nicea) where literally which books were to be included in the official Canon, and which were to be excluded was put to a vote. If a few more of those who followed the Gnostic creed, the Bible today would almost certainly include the Gospel of Thomas and other books now relegated to the dust heap.
Think of it in these terms (not a perfect analogy, but still) - I might today (with my knowledge of the Bible) believe that a certain pastor/church sticks generally to the "big picture" of the Bible and stays consistent with its message, while on the other hand believe that those in the "prosperity gospel" movement are a bunch of charlatans who corrupt and distort the Bible to the point that its message is lost or put in a secondary role at best. Now, imagine back in the day (yr 325) that there had been more of the "prosperity" types who got a vote about how to not only interpret the Bible, but actually construct it, present when the vote was taken, the Bible would in very few ways resemble what you have today. Point being that what Jesus actually said, could have been completely mis-remembered (inaccurately recorded), distorted to support certain political/social views dominant at the time (Constantine's role in organizing the Council of Nicea) and simple disputes over doctrine and elements of faith could have resulted in a Bible which was hardly representative of the actual words of Jesus given so many centuries of intervening characters which shaped what is now accepted as constituting the Bible.
No, what he said was pretty much in keeping what one would likely hear from any rabbi back in that time.
I am also far from convinced (actually reject) that most of what he said was accurately recorded or did not suffer heavily from editorializing which found its way into the text by the time it was actually "canonized" some 325 yrs or so later at the Council of Nicea.
It's actually Saul/Paul with whom I have the larger problem. I think of him in legal terms as an "officious inter-meddler" as someone who decided it was too dangerous to stay in the tax collecting game and decided to jump into the then growing Christ movement. He was the one who developed (to some degree) the largest role in the organization of the early church and eventually, as far as Christianity's doctrines, canon, and beliefs was the person who got much say in what is now accepted by the church.
Contrast what Paul was claiming/writing with other early churches across the region (Alexandria, Ethiopia, Constantinople, etc.) and across varying creeds (Gnostics, Marcionites, Montanist) had adopted as their own "canon" of what they viewed as "legitimate" scripture and you can see stark contrasts and differences. The entire thing ends up basically boiling down as to who had the largest numbers (popularity contest) by the time of the first ecumenical council (Council of Nicea) where literally which books were to be included in the official Canon, and which were to be excluded was put to a vote. If a few more of those who followed the Gnostic creed, the Bible today would almost certainly include the Gospel of Thomas and other books now relegated to the dust heap.
Think of it in these terms (not a perfect analogy, but still) - I might today (with my knowledge of the Bible) believe that a certain pastor/church sticks generally to the "big picture" of the Bible and stays consistent with its message, while on the other hand believe that those in the "prosperity gospel" movement are a bunch of charlatans who corrupt and distort the Bible to the point that its message is lost or put in a secondary role at best. Now, imagine back in the day (yr 325) that there had been more of the "prosperity" types who got a vote about how to not only interpret the Bible, but actually construct it, present when the vote was taken, the Bible would in very few ways resemble what you have today. Point being that what Jesus actually said, could have been completely mis-remembered (inaccurately recorded), distorted to support certain political/social views dominant at the time (Constantine's role in organizing the Council of Nicea) and simple disputes over doctrine and elements of faith could have resulted in a Bible which was hardly representative of the actual words of Jesus given so many centuries of intervening characters which shaped what is now accepted as constituting the Bible.
I don't claim to to have an answer for that either. I would question anyone who says that they do. The simple truth is that no one knows what path is going to lead them to God. Scripture, and my own experience, tells me that a life of luxury is the quickest way into deceiving yourself that you need nothing and that you owe nothing. A difficult life forces you to accept that fact that there are some things that are just out of your control and that you need help, it teaches humility. For the Christian, a life of luxury can be a curse, and a life of suffering can be a blessing. I like this parable from Luke:
19“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30“‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Interesting position. It's difficult to imagine the average rabbi of the time saying:
John 10:
22 At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
In the passage highlighted notice the order of what Jesus' says.
Or how about this passage in John 8. Note, that Jews present knew exactly what Jesus meant:
48 The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’a]">[a] 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”b]">[b] 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.
John 10:
22 At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
In the passage highlighted notice the order of what Jesus' says.
Or how about this passage in John 8. Note, that Jews present knew exactly what Jesus meant:
48 The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’a]">[a] 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”b]">[b] 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.
I think there is a greater power that created the universe, but I have a hard time believing that God or this higher power "has a plan" for all of us, especially when children are murdered or die of cancer or thousands of people are killed by a tsunami, etc. My feeling is that a higher power did create the universe, but then sat back to let the us figure it out for ourselves.
Marshal
The Hebrew word for "Rabbi" gets roughly translated in several passages of the Bible as "Teacher" or "Teacher of the law." As such, there are at least 7 places in the New Testament where Jesus himself, his disciples, or others refer to him by that title or in more modern (likely more accurate translations) versions as Rabbi itself. Some of these references are from other rabbis and members of various Jewish sects then active.
Jesus - John 13:12-14, Luke 22:10-11
Disciples - Mark 9:5, Mark 11:21
Others - Mark 10:51, John 6:24-25, Matthew 8:19, Luke 3:12, Matthew 22:23-32.
The Hebrew word for "Rabbi" gets roughly translated in several passages of the Bible as "Teacher" or "Teacher of the law." As such, there are at least 7 places in the New Testament where Jesus himself, his disciples, or others refer to him by that title or in more modern (likely more accurate translations) versions as Rabbi itself. Some of these references are from other rabbis and members of various Jewish sects then active.
Jesus - John 13:12-14, Luke 22:10-11
Disciples - Mark 9:5, Mark 11:21
Others - Mark 10:51, John 6:24-25, Matthew 8:19, Luke 3:12, Matthew 22:23-32.
