Do You Want Socialized Health Care?

[my_2cents]

Your rights can be taken from you by others. But they were always yours. They weren't given to them. They were returned back to them.

Thank you for amending your previous statement. This is closer to the truth.

African Americans had a right not to be enslaved, but it had to be recognized. All women had the right to vote, but it had to be recognized and protected. African Americans had a right to vote, but it had to be recognized and protected. And I believe all humans have a right to health care and it needs to be recognized and protected.

 

[Ponca Dan]

Thank you for amending your previous statement. This is closer to the truth.

African Americans had a right not to be enslaved, but it had to be recognized. All women had the right to vote, but it had to be recognized and protected. African Americans had a right to vote, but it had to be recognized and protected. And I believe all humans have a right to health care and it needs to be recognized and protected.

To this point you have not defined what is a right. Would you do so?

 

[my_2cents]

To this point you have not defined what is a right. Would you do so?

Again, I am not going to go down this road with you Ponca. I gave you my viewpoint. You aren't going to change your mind. So we can just agree to disagree on this.

 

[Ostatedchi]

The way to measure what is or isn't a right is that your rights end where mine begin - and vice versa.

You can't have a right to health care because that infringes on my right to keep what I've earned. Also you are basically saying that the person who is a health care provider is a slave when you force them to service.

Now... if you want to collectively agree that we as a society want to provide everyone with a certain minimum level of care because we believe it is the correct thing to do? Okay, let's have that conversation.

But it isn't a 'right'. Words have meaning. Use them correctly.

 

[my_2cents]

But it isn't a 'right'. Words have meaning. Use them correctly.

I disagree. I believe it is a right and I also believe it will eventually be recognized as a right in this country.

btw, you don't have a right to keep all that you earned. If you did, taxes would be unconstitutional.

 

[Ostatedchi]

I disagree. I believe it is a right and I also believe it will eventually be recognized as a right in this country.

btw, you don't have a right to keep all that you earned. If you did, taxes would be unconstitutional.

Wrong again. Taxes are constitutional because we've collectively bestowed the central government the authority to do so on our behalf to collectively do those things on our behalf that we choose for them to do.

I have a right to keep what I've earned. It is premised in the rights of personal property. I've chosen to give part of that to the collective to benefit myself and others.

 

[anon_xl72qcu5isp39]

Wrong again. Taxes are constitutional because we've collectively bestowed the central government the authority to do so on our behalf to collectively do those things on our behalf that we choose for them to do.

I have a right to keep what I've earned. It is premised in the rights of personal property. I've chosen to give part of that to the collective to benefit myself and others.

Says who?

 

[my_2cents]

Taxes are constitutional because we've collectively bestowed the central government the authority to do so on our behalf to collectively do those things on our behalf that we choose for them to do.

lol, exactly. Like Medicare, Medicaid.

And one day, we will have a single-payer system. It will be another collective endeavor. This is my point.

 

[Ostatedchi]

Says who?

“Nothing is more certain than the indispensable necessity of government, and it is equally undeniable, that whenever and however it is instituted, the people must cede to it some of their natural rights in order to vest it with requisite powers.” (Federalist No. 2)

 

[Ostatedchi]

lol, exactly. Like Medicare, Medicaid.

And one day, we will have a single-payer system. It will be another collective endeavor. This is my point.

Fine. But it still isn't a 'right'. It is a collective decision to cede some of our personal rights to the general good.

 

[Ponca Dan]

Again, I am not going to go down this road with you Ponca. I gave you my viewpoint. You aren't going to change your mind. So we can just agree to disagree on this.

OK, that’s fair. You’re probably right that I won’t change my view. I find it interesting, however, that we can only discuss things like the definition of rights if I am open to change my view. It is incumbent upon me to be open to changing my view, but not incumbent on you. Seems like a rigged conversation under those circumstances.

 

[anon_xl72qcu5isp39]

“Nothing is more certain than the indispensable necessity of government, and it is equally undeniable, that whenever and however it is instituted, the people must cede to it some of their natural rights in order to vest it with requisite powers.” (Federalist No. 2)

You guys treat that stuff like its scripture.

 

[my_2cents]

But it still isn't a 'right'.

Again, I believe it is a right as do many Americans. Clearly you disagree.

 

[Ostatedchi]

You guys treat that stuff like its scripture.

It lets us understand what is in the minds of the crafters of the ruling document of our lives. So yeah... it is much like scripture.

There is some stuff in the federalist papers that I disagree with. But I recognize that it still gives me insight into the minds of the great people who drew up our constitution.

 

[Ostatedchi]

Again, I believe it is a right as do many Americans. Clearly you disagree.

Bastardize the word all you like. It doesn't make it correct.

 

[anon_xl72qcu5isp39]

No. I’m 71. Haven’t been to a doctor since I was in my 50’s.

Do I LIKE MediCare? Not only no but hell no!

The public is on your side of the argument. I don’t deny it now, nor have I ever denied it. I just disagree with the public on this issue. The purpose of the OP is for the public to see the result of what it wants: UK health care, which appears to be an unmitigated disaster. It is illogical for the public to say it wants freedom while demanding coerced government health care.

Let's have an intellectually honest discussion about this. Let's look at the countries with the best health care and see how it's generally delivered. Deal? I don't know the answer, but don't want to spend the time looking it up if you won't do it.

[Thread title: "Do you want socialized health care?"]

No, I don’t know the answer either. But I don’t really care what the answer is.

@CowboyJD don't read the whole thread, it's boring and the usual same ol'.... but take a look at this. You have never been more right, and you called this early on, from about 1,000 miles away. I don't give out Nostradamus awards much, okay I've only given them to myself, but you get one. I'll find an appropriate "medal" or something to post later.

 

[Ponca Dan]

[Thread title: "Do you want socialized health care?"]





@CowboyJD don't read the whole thread, it's boring and the usual same ol'.... but take a look at this. You have never been more right, and you called this early on, from about 1,000 miles away. I don't give out Nostradamus awards much, okay I've only given them to myself, but you get one. I'll find an appropriate "medal" or something to post later.

That’s a good one, sys! Please take a picture at the presentation. I would suggest the medal be made of pure gold. Will there be a celebration? Will dinner be served? Will I be invited?

 

[anon_xl72qcu5isp39]

That’s a good one, sys! Please take a picture at the presentation. I would suggest the medal be made of pure gold. Will there be a celebration? Will dinner be served? Will I be invited?

JD

Sorry, I'm not real artsy.

 

[Ponca Dan]

JD

Sorry, I'm not real artsy.

Keep working on it. You’re a creative guy. You’ll come up with something. I have all the confidence in the world in you.

 

[CowboyJD]

OK, that’s fair. You’re probably right that I won’t change my view. I find it interesting, however, that we can only discuss things like the definition of rights if I am open to change my view. It is incumbent upon me to be open to changing my view, but not incumbent on you. Seems like a rigged conversation under those circumstances.

Very definition of passive aggressive right there.

He never said he wasn’t open to changing his view.

I know you aren’t reading this. It’s for the benefit of others.

 

[CowboyJD]

[Thread title: "Do you want socialized health care?"]





@CowboyJD don't read the whole thread, it's boring and the usual same ol'.... but take a look at this. You have never been more right, and you called this early on, from about 1,000 miles away. I don't give out Nostradamus awards much, okay I've only given them to myself, but you get one. I'll find an appropriate "medal" or something to post later.

I was raised by an incredibly passive aggressive mother. I spot these things from 1000s of leagues away.

Oh yeah...get ready for the silent treatment/ignore button.

 

[anon_xl72qcu5isp39]

I was raised by an incredibly passive aggressive mother. I spot these things from 1000s of leagues away.

Oh yeah...get ready for the silent treatment/ignore button.

I have never seen someone feel so passionately about something and go tits up the instant someone proposes an intellectually honest challenge.

 

[Ponca Dan]

I have never seen someone feel so passionately about something and go tits up the instant someone proposes an intellectually honest challenge.

Are you referring to 2cents being unwilling to define a right even though he passionately tells us what some of our rights should be?

 

[davidallen]

We will eventually have some form of a singler-payer systerm in this country. The support for such an approach is growing among Americans.

I put the over/under at 2030.

 

[davidallen]

I fear you are right. And probably within 70 years our health care will mimic what the UK has now.

Tell me more about what the UK has now. And be sure to look past the headlines and at the actual data. How do they compare on overall mortality rates? Maybe drill in on infant mortality as an example. You can compare and contrast that with say the stats in Oklahoma. Once you do that, lets have a real conversation....

 

[CowboyJD]

Tell me more about what the UK has now. And be sure to look past the headlines and at the actual data. How do they compare on overall mortality rates? Maybe drill in on infant mortality as an example. You can compare and contrast that with say the stats in Oklahoma. Once you do that, lets have a real conversation....

Too much work.

He just posts links.

 

[davidallen]

... we have the best quality of life in the most advanced civilization in history...

Data is your friend. How do you quantify quality of life and how does that of the US compare with the rest of the world? A bit of research might help you appreciate that not everything is as clear cut as you would hope...

 

[davidallen]

This theoretical word play makes no sense to me. Rights have to be affirmatively made and preserved or they don't exist. I disagree with anybody that says they're "innate" or "natural" or "god given" -- they only exist in reality when people say, "We declare this as a right" and that declaration is enforced."

This. When and where in history did the mere assertion of a "right" instantly change a damn thing. Only after the sacrifice of blood, treasure, and/or reaching a social/political consensus is a "right" realized. Not fair huh? Reality.

 

[anon_xl72qcu5isp39]

Data is your friend. How do you quantify quality of life and how does that of the US compare with the rest of the world? A bit of research might help you appreciate that not everything is as clear cut as you would hope...

PD: Do you want socialized health care? Look at this one slanted piece about one country.

S: Ok, but let's look at who's doing a good job delivering health care and then see if I want whatever that system is.

PD: No, I don't care who's doing it well, I just believe what I believe and I'm not interested in what actually works or changing my opinions.

 

[anon_xl72qcu5isp39]

What do you want to do so badly that you can't?

Specifically. You. What specifically do you want to do that you can't?

Dan, for being so persecuted you're not one that can provide many specifics.

 

[CBradSmith]

Nothing to fear when it happens Ponca. I do understand though that you are a libertarian (anarchist?) and therefore are politically opposed to such an idea.

It is long past time to recognize health care as a right in this country.

Haha I just faked being a leftist and said this very thing.

Nailed it.

 

[Onepokeovertheline]

We will eventually have some form of a singler-payer systerm in this country. The support for such an approach is growing among Americans.

Just more proof that people are stupid.

 

[CBradSmith]

Let's have an intellectually honest discussion about this. Let's look at the countries with the best health care and see how it's generally delivered. Deal? I don't know the answer, but don't want to spend the time looking it up if you won't do it.

The first step is to define in specifics what is "best," and what the reformed medical service industry will provide as a basic entitlement.

 

[anon_xl72qcu5isp39]

The first step is to define in specifics what is "best," and what the reformed medical service industry will provide as a basic entitlement.

Could you define "define"?

 

[Ponca Dan]

Tell me more about what the UK has now. And be sure to look past the headlines and at the actual data. How do they compare on overall mortality rates? Maybe drill in on infant mortality as an example. You can compare and contrast that with say the stats in Oklahoma. Once you do that, lets have a real conversation....

... and I’m back. Believe me I would rather field the bombs you guys throw at me than go to the grocery store, gas up my wife’s car, wander through several stores looking for just the right shelving for one of her projects, spend the rest of the day trying to find the perfect outfit for our 13 year old granddaughter’s party, and, of course, we can’t get something for the 13 year old and not get something of equal value for her 10 year old sister.

But that’s behind me now, so let’s proceed with the discussion.

I have told you before, David, I’m not a data guy. My interest is in the philosophical, political morality of a policy. I’m not much of a believer in data because statistics and data can be - and are - manipulated to suit the person presenting the the data. The article that initiated this thread provided lots of statistics and data which you would have known had you read it before deciding to opine. It explains several examples of how the NHS manipulates the data before it makes it public.

No, my thesis remains the immorality, the political evil that is foisted upon us by policies that have every good intention in the world, but which have unintended consequences, and which generally cause as much or more harm than they alleviate.

I’ll leave the data arguments to you.

 

[CowboyJD]

So again....not interested in facts or evidence.

Not interested in operating or discussing the real world...reality.

Also...did you guys think you were throwing “bombs”?

I didn’t.

More classic PA techniques.

 

[aix_xpert]

Who on this board has any actual experience with Medicare? Did you have private insurance before? I ask, because as I watch my parents transition from their private coverage to medicare, it has been the absolute biggest clusterf**k I've ever seen. And besides, if everyone loves Medicare (as your stats imply), why does everyone need supplemental insurance? In my own experience, the only people I know who like Medicare are those who have only ever used Medicaid previously.

 

[07pilt]

W And besides, if everyone loves Medicare (as your stats imply), why does everyone need supplemental insurance?

No one needs supplemental insurance. You see it advertised all the time because selling people something they don't need is highly profitable.

 

[07pilt]

Fine. But it still isn't a 'right'. It is a collective decision to cede some of our personal rights to the general good.

"Health care should be a human collective decision to cede some of our personal right to the general good" just doesn't have the same ring as "healthcare should be a human right"

Can we all just agree that we mean the first thing when we say the second thing, and avoid the tedious pedantry?

 

[Ostatedchi]

"Health care should be a human collective decision to cede some of our personal right to the general good" just doesn't have the same ring as "healthcare should be a human right"

Can we all just agree that we mean the first thing when we say the second thing, and avoid the tedious pedantry?

Nope. They aren't the same things.

The first is a choice. The second a requirement.