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Dealing with your children

Chillwell

Chillwell

Heisman Winner
Jun 16, 2001
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OK...I had a very hands off father. He was around and all; my parents were married 40+ years before he died. But I'm not sure he even spoke to me until I was 12. I guess you could say he was old fashion in that raising children was women's work. He wasn't a bad guy or abusive or anything like that...just not too warm and fuzzy. Also, I was the youngest of five, so maybe he didn't see me as that big of a deal...ha!

I guess I'm a modern Dad, very hands on. My wife and I have one child and do not plan on any others. So I have some questions for you other Dads... I guess I'm looking for thoughts and advice...

What's a good age for Star Wars? And should I introduce the movies in the order they were made or in chronologically?Books that any young boy should read and when?Movies any young boy should see and when?When is it time to have the sex talk with your son? (you can probably guess I never got one from my Dad...had to learn most everything from my neighbor friend Clay who was 3 years older. I'm sure you can imagine Clay wasn't always spot on.)How do you talk about/teach death?Sports... my son appears to be lacking in almost any athletic ability, which is difficult for me. Not that I was some athletic freak, but for small town Oklahoma, slow white boy, I was a pretty decent athlete...two-time state champion in track, three-year starter in basketball, etc. To be fair to him, he's only 6, and we just started him in Tee-ball. But frankly he's terrible, and I base that on what I see out of other kids. Obviously, I know it's stupid that it matters to me, but it does. At this point, he only seems interested in video games. I try to get him to play catch, but he just doesn't show much interest. I do think he's a pretty smart kid (which, besides health, is the most important thing to me), but I don't want him to grow up to be a complete video game dork, who can't open a jar of jam. Unfortunately, because he's an only child, I fear I am putting too great of expectations on him...which is my problem...I know. My wife is there to remind me of this constantly...and she's right. She tells me I cannot live through him, which, maybe that's what I'm trying to do. I tell myself that I am not and just want what's best for him. But who knows? Any advice here??? My wife says just let him be... which is the logical answer, but I'm struggling with this, especially when it comes to sports.
 
I don't have time for this right this minute, but I have a great answer for #1.

My daughter is 5, so they are the same age. She would also be in kindergarten this year, but she's a late August baby and had enough health complications last year it went from tough decision to easy as pie on waiting a year.
 
Originally posted by Chillwell:
OK...I had a very hands off father. He was around and all; my parents were married 40+ years before he died. But I'm not sure he even spoke to me until I was 12. I guess you could say he was old fashion in that raising children was women's work. He wasn't a bad guy or abusive or anything like that...just not too warm and fuzzy. Also, I was the youngest of five, so maybe he didn't see me as that big of a deal...ha!

I guess I'm a modern Dad, very hands on. My wife and I have one child and do not plan on any others. So I have some questions for you other Dads... I guess I'm looking for thoughts and advice...



What's a good age for Star Wars? And should I introduce the movies in the order they were made or in chronologically?
Books that any young boy should read and when?
Movies any young boy should see and when?
When is it time to have the sex talk with your son? (you can probably guess I never got one from my Dad...had to learn most everything from my neighbor friend Clay who was 3 years older. I'm sure you can imagine Clay wasn't always spot on.)
How do you talk about/teach death?
Sports... my son appears to be lacking in almost any athletic ability, which is difficult for me. Not that I was some athletic freak, but for small town Oklahoma, slow white boy, I was a pretty decent athlete...two-time state champion in track, three-year starter in basketball, etc. To be fair to him, he's only 6, and we just started him in Tee-ball. But frankly he's terrible, and I base that on what I see out of other kids. Obviously, I know it's stupid that it matters to me, but it does. At this point, he only seems interested in video games. I try to get him to play catch, but he just doesn't show much interest. I do think he's a pretty smart kid (which, besides health, is the most important thing to me), but I don't want him to grow up to be a complete video game dork, who can't open a jar of jam. Unfortunately, because he's an only child, I fear I am putting too great of expectations on him...which is my problem...I know. My wife is there to remind me of this constantly...and she's right. She tells me I cannot live through him, which, maybe that's what I'm trying to do. I tell myself that I am not and just want what's best for him. But who knows? Any advice here??? My wife says just let him be... which is the logical answer, but I'm struggling with this, especially when it comes to sports.
Click to expand...
I'm only going to touch on #6.

My son also has little interest in athletics. He prefers video games. He is, actually, fairly athletic. Very fast runner and pretty well coordinated when he has tried baseball and basketball. But, he does not enjoy those things. Getting him to go outside and play catch or shoot hoops is difficult. Even when I am successful, he is ready to quit after about 5 minutes. I used to find it very frustrating, but I finally realized that it is not a battle worth fighting. We do limit his "screen time", and he does have other interests than video games. He plays the stand up base and is teaching himself to play the electric base. He is very talented and involved with drama. It took a while, but I realized that he is what he is, and his interests are his interests. I'm not going to change him, and we are both much happier if I support him in doing the things he loves rather than attempt to force him to do the things I love. Now, I go to his orchestra concerts and plays, and enjoy when he steals the show or when he finishes and comes running to us with a big smile on his face. It is not the same as watching him hit the game winning shot or drive in the game winning run, but it is just as good (at least for me). By the way, he is 13 years old,
 
I was the least athletic of 4 boys and found running to be my best sport. Not really something you can get involved in early like baseball, football, etc., but AAU has some quality coaching before junior high and high school.

As for the other stuff, I'm not a father so I can't really provide much support there. Star wars seems like a pre-teen thing imo.
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My advice if sports won't be an outlet is to go on hikes. Living in Colorado, even the dorks were in shape because they ate right and liked to be outside. Then they video gamed when they got home.

I'm not sure how athletic my kid is going to be (4yr) but we have big adventures outside tromping around. I play it up before we go and let him swear when it is just the two of us.
 
My kids were fairly athletic but we let them quit sports at about 14-16. They just weren't interested anymore and I didn't feel like making them relive my youth.

What I did do however that is much more rewarding than watching your kid score a meaningless touchdown in the 8th grade was to get them interested in watching sports. Specifically OSU sports. My kids are huge OSU fans so we will have a lifetime of enjoyment watching OSU sports as well as some professional sports.

Running would probably be a good idea and you might see if he has an interest in golf.
 
I was prepared for some doozy questions after the absent dad setup. Then you hit us with Star Wars and sports.

Star Wars, he looks plenty old enough for that. I'd go with the original order, but that's probably too simple. Just because if nothing else, the special effects will look super cheesy after you see the newer ones.

Regarding sports, I feel for you. It'd have done a number on my dadhood if my boys hadn't liked sports. But in a way, if your kid avoids sports, you also avoid a lot of the nonsense and drama and angst and cost and injuries that goes with sports, especially competitive sports. They also siphon more time than most other extracurricular activities, which eats into family time and study time. My ultimate take is that your primary parental responsibility along the "hobbies and talents" track of your kids lives is to help them discover their thing. Whatever that is. You don't have much choice anyway, God gave them their talents and dispositions, you're just there to shepherd them along whatever track they belong on. You could no more make a ballplayer out of a musician than vice versa.
 
#1. Star Wars: My son has seen every Star Wars movie in the theater. He was lucky because they began showing the original three in the theaters just before the release of the 4th movie. He was around the age of 6 (he is now 25). He LOVED the series. He and I have now seen the midnight opening of all of the last trilogy. He lives in Anchorage, AK now so our string may be broken when the new one comes out soon. Short answer: Nope he is the right age!

#6. Sports: We tried just about every sport. We stayed in Baseball the longest: 3 years. He was fair to decent in the sports (soccer, baseball, football, basketball) but he is just not wired for sports. I did not play in sports as a kid but encouraged him. My goal was to have him experience the sports so that if he didn't like them, he would have no regrets.
Interesting enough, he tried band and LOVED it. Became an All-State Trumpet player. He was able to be competitive and not get hit! Give the boy the opportunity for Sports...if it's not for him...find something that he can enjoy. The key is get him involved in something...become a part of a group whether it is debate, band, academic competition, choir, spelling bee....something.
 
#4 Sex Talk: My parents never did talk to me about sex. I made sure I didn't repeat that mistake. I think it was 6th grade when I talked to my son. They had a sex education class (probably the same one I had in 10th grade) and I followed up on that class that night by retelling him about what sex was and a little more detail. If I remember right, they had given parents a heads up on the topics. I just made sure that things that I thought they may go light on I covered again in details. I remember wanting to know things when I was young but didn't feel comfortable asking the parents.

#5 Death: Seems like growing up, my grandparents and parents always knew someone that died. They took me to funerals. They would explain what was going on. I went to the funeral home with parents and they would answer any questions that I had (much better at death than sex in explaining things). Because I went to funerals at a very young age, it wasn't scary. My family is a family of faith, so death was explained in terms body and spirit...so an empty body just didn't seem odd. Of course I always looked for strange things like the eyelids not being totally sew shut...things that a boy would find interesting. On the flip side, the wife's first funeral was at the age of 22 yrs. It was very upsetting to her because she had not been around death. My seem ghoulish, but introduce death at an early age...don't hide the funeral of friends, family, and neighbors from children.
 
Wow, you could be talking about my son (he's 7 now). He has seen all the original Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, and Harry Potter. He is also into video games and not overly athletic but plays and enjoys baseball, but it's tough to get him to go outside and play catch.

Sex talk...I'm interested in this question too. Just last week he asked my wife (while I was out of town) what his balls were for, she said to ask me. So, when I got home, he asked, but I don't know how to explain that to a 7 year old.
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Sex talk. I started talking to my son in very basic stuff around 7 to 8 or so, mostly in response to questions he would ask .. when he tirned 9, we had a more in depth talk, and again when he turned 10 and I also bought him a book, The Boy's Body Book: Everything You Need to Know for Growing Up YOU, so he could read on his own.
"What's Happening to Me?" A Guide to Puberty is another good book., I told him any time he had questions to come and we would talk about it. The book weren't a substitute, but an aide. It has helped him broach several different subjects that he would probably not have asked about otherwise due to embarrassment or other concerns.

We still talk about things, but he is now getting to the age when he is starting to really understand the jokes and innuendo that is so prevalent on TV and in movies, which can sometimes start an additional round of questions.
 
Movies -The Sandlot - the original one..... It's a great story and portrayal of being a kid at a time when you could be out with your friends all day long. He can see it now but there will be a couple of things he won't get until he is older however there is plenty to keep him and you entertained now.

Books - Hardy Boys Mysteries they are great for you to read to him...

Sports.... Really doesn't matter if he is any good if he wants to play a sport, let him. My son loves baseball but was not that good. He still played for 5 or 6 years until other interests took over.


Sex talk.... Not until he gets curious or starts to show interest in girls AND is old enough for it to matter... For my son that was around 11 or 12.

Death ... I would not bring it up per set but would wait for teachable moments.... And then talk about it in little snippets in an age appropriate manner.

Lastly, although I am sure there are those on this board who will disagree... there is no better preparation for life than Cub and Boy Scouts. Both gives you opportunities to get and stay involved in his life. Keep in mind that they are really 2 separate programs.

Cub scouts (under 11) is run by the parents and is really a whole family program centered around learning about the world and having fun.

Boy scouts (11 and over) is run by the boys themselves and is centered around the outdoors(and outdoor skills), building leadership and community service. It is amazing how much service is given each year to the community by Boy Scouts (in 2013 over 17 million hours) and even more amazing how many that have truly made a difference in the world were Boy Scouts.
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This post was edited on 3/18 9:20 PM by xplor58
 
I've got 3 girls. Ages 7, 3 and 6 months. Both of my older girls have already had some of the "death" and "sex" talks. Mainly because we have animals. They have been there while I semen checked bulls. They think it is funny right now. They have seen cows getting bred. They don't ask a lot of questions yet, but when they do I answer the best I can for their age. They have been to a few funerals and they have also seen dead cattle. Having a pet would also be a good way to introduce kids to life and death. It's hard, but it prepares them for the future.

Sports, don't ask me. I haven't played since the 5th grade when I scored a goal on the wrong end during a BB game. I was called "Wrong Way Sturgeon" for years after that.
 
1. I promised an answer to this, and will try to deliver. You've obviously spent some time thinking about this and are very excited about it. I don't know of any reason you shouldn't be! Return of the Jedi is the first movie I remember seeing in theatre. I was 4, and I loved it. I was nearly hooked for life. Turns out George Lucas came close to ruining that for me (well that, and me growing up... And not well in some ways). We also had one of the first network broadcasts of Star Wars (I guess we have to call it A New Hope or Elisode IV now) on tape (this was still a few years before I remember noticing VHS movies for sale in stores, and I wore that tape out).

There are places in the movies that can be a little scary for young kids. Some more than others, and some not at all. It just depends. Be prepared for that. It's also possible he just won't be into it... I assume that's possible anyway. My daughter turned her nose up at Harry Potter and The Hobbit when I tried to read them to her.

Anyway, back to how to introduce it (because we've already established he's old enough!)... I did this on accident, but it turned out beautifully, and saved the franchise for me. Also, in my ridiculous, overly emotional state last spring I once credited (in all seriousness) Luke, Leia, Han and crew with saving my daughter's life.

So TheRedDaughter (TRD from here out) was a big fan of The Lion King probably starting right before birthday #3. HUGE fan. We watched that thing at least once almost everyday. She also loved for me to tell her the story. "Daddy tell me The Lion King." Almost every night. I got to where I couldn't bare it anymore. I would find excuses not to talk about Cimba despite really loving that story myself. One night (she was 4 and a half) when she said "Daddy tell me a story" (which had become her short hand for "tell me The Lion King") I couldn't think of any excuses, but when I opened my mouth to sing that opening line when the sun comes up over the horizon I said "A long time ago, in a galaxy..." (you get the point) instead... There were a few moments where it nearly fell apart on arrival until she realized this story had a princess!!! in it, but she was hooked then. For a week straight she would lay on my chest before bed time and I would tell her about 15 minutes worth of Star Wars for story time before bed. On the day we would have finished it she demanded story time at 4:30 as soon as I got home from work. When I finished her mother asked if she would like to see the movie. TRD looked at her mother for a minute (not literally) then looked at me, got over her initial shock a bit, lit up and finally asked in the excited voice only a 4 year old girl can muster "There's a movie?!?!?!" We watched the first half of it that night. All the way up until the Falcon wound up on the Death Star. By the end of that week we'd seen Episodes IV and V. The Empire Strikes Back was not her favorite, but we'll work on "taste" later.

This is also right around the time we discovered all was not well with her physically. That doesn't need to be part of this story, but we had to go down to Austin to get an MRI and see a pediatric neurosurgeon that made room for us in his busy schedule just four days later. We were scared to death, and with good reason. I don't remember now whether it was the first MRI trip (there were eventually three last spring) or the first appointment with that story's real world hero, but she watched Star Wars (Episode IV) on the way home from one of those first two trips to Austin. When we got home, and she was wide awake having slept a lot during the day at the clinic/hospital her mother went to bed, but she and I stayed up late and watched The Return of the Jedi. That was a magical 2.5 hours where I was able to forget it all and be a kid again through her eyes and we watched the end of the Empire together. Beating back the fear, even for a little while, was exactly what I needed to resist the Dark Side that was knocking on my doorstep. It still does, of course, but if she can remember that fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate and hate leads to suffering... I can too.

When she had spine surgery a few weeks later it was Star Wars she turned to when she was ready to rejoin the living. She watched the original trilogy all in one day, and for moments as long as two hours she could have been anywhere but that hospital... The staff called her the "Little Jedi" and asked her questions about the movies. The second day we were there one of them listens in the door way as she recited the opening crawl from memory in her drugged up, nearly wasted little girl voice when we started it the first time that day. The nurse rushed in and told her how amazing that was and she smiled for the first time since her surgery.

We've finally passed the need to see it every day. We had the awkward conversation later that summer about when she could see Episodes I, II and III (curse her math skills!). I told her "when you're old enough to handle disappointment." We discovered Star Wars: The Clone Wars animated series on Netflix. We bought a few toys. We went on treasure hints to find my old ones in my parents' garage, attic and storage shed. In August we had the best birthday party ever. Swim party with a projector and screen set up so the kids could watch Star Wars. We even had an opening cartoon, Lego Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Out. We made lightsabers out of noodles for party favors. When the music started up for the main event all the kids in the pool stopped splashing and hitting each other with "lightsabers" and screamed. My tech saavy 24 year old friend (baby!) leaned over to me and his wife while the kids were acting like 13 year old girls at a Bieber concert and said "And this movie is 40 years old!" I nearly fell over myself about to put him straight when I realized the math was just semantics. It basically is...

Anyway... Back to your question... I suppose my response is why hasn't he seen it yet?

Two quick stories now about TRD before Star Wars...

When she was 3.5 one of my good friends got married. His wedding was a blast, and since he waited until he was 35 to do it there were more kids at this wedding than most white people ever see at one (TRS is racist! No, really, there about 30-40 2-10 year old kids at this thing!). It was a May 4th wedding (get it?). He is not really a Star Wars fan, and neither is she, but their wedding planner was, and they played along. Piñata of R2-D2 for the kids, lightsabers for groomsmen, reception had Star Wars character cookies... You get the idea. Very good cookies that TRD loved. Of course she asked me who the funny man was on her cookie and when I looked and saw Vader in her hands I realized 15 year old TRS would consider me a failure as a father. I suppose I have made up for it.

When she was younger than that she found a bag with some of my action figures I used to keep around for the boys in the neighborhood (no really, I had split with Star Wars after the Prequels, and good riddance I thought at the time) and held up Luke and asked who he was. I said "that's Luke Skywalker." "Oh," she says back. Then she picked up a Lando figure and asked, in all seriousness, "What does he walk on?" When is got over the hilarity I noticed she had sat Luke down on the potty in her new dollhouse.

Anyway, on to the other questions that I, like you, am still discovering the answers to.
 
2. There are so many... I will just name a few of our favorites for now. Not ones he should read in his lifetime, and not ones like Harry Potter or then hardy Boys that might need to wait for 8-10 years old... We love William Joyce. His picture books are probably still too difficult for a first grader (would have been for me anyway), but they are great to read to my daughter. Her favorites are The Man in the Moon and The Sandman. Great stories about beings with extra dinars gifts that do their best to protect children from fear. Not classics perhaps, but give them some time. I love them. There is a movie with the same characters that is pretty good also: Rise of the Guardians. We also like Arrow to the Sun, Abi Yoyo, the Olivia books... Lots of stuff really, but those stick out to me right now.

3. The Samdlot really is a good one. Not sure if it's better now or after he starts playing baseball himself. Maybe it will help him start! Let's see... You meant other than Star Wars right? The Lion King, Spider-Man, Big Hero Six, the Lego Movie, Super Eight (maybe 10+ for that one)... I will think of others later I'm sure.

4. My parents had the first one with me when I was 8 or 9. It was really simple, and awkward, but not terribly awkward. I think I just picked up on it from them rather than the topic being so itself. Make sure you're in a good place to be serious about it yourself and sound confident, but also in a mood where you can be completely yourself discussing it. That's what I think anyway. Who knows what that's worth. I haven't done it yet either (at least not with my own. I have had some discussions with the teenage boys I work with).

5. Not terribly sure. Pets are good. Hopefully that happens before someone important to him. TRD used to be pretty scared of wild animals and monsters and didn't understand why they killed other animals or people. We have coined a phrase that seems to help her a lot with that. "Everybody's got to eat." Not sure about her wondering about her own death or our's or grandparents. We have had talks, but we will have to have more. We talk about it from our own faith background of course. Not sure if that's part of the answer you want, but will be happy to go into that more.

6. Let's not stress about this too much just yet. Developmentally most kids don't start to get games with rules, let alone sports, until age 7. I wasn't interested until I was 8 personally. I never played T-ball. Didn't stop me from playing baseball for years though, or picking up tennis in high school. Would have played both longer if I hadn't discovered the trumpet and music. He'll find what makes the world a better place for him. It may be sports, it may be something else. Who knows.
 
We have 3 girls, 12, 9, and 4.

About two years ago we (primarily my wife) began the discussions about sex with our oldest, and have opened the door for the 9 year old as she has had a couple of questions. We didn't spend a lot of time with her on it now, as she isn't ready for it yet. With both of them, we didn't use funny names for body parts or dance around anything. Completely honest and straight forward so there's no confusion.

The two oldest lost their Dad when they were 5 and 2, so death has been a very well covered aspect of our family. It has only been a recent thing that we let them know about his cremation, as we didn't want them focusing on how they do it and freak them out, until they were older and could better process that it wasn't him (as they remember him), just his body.
 
I'm ready to watch the entire franchise in this order now. I would go ahead and watch 1 after 6 as kind of a light desert for the newly addicted Star Wars fan as a companion piece to the main story.

Love that order: 4,5,2,3,6 very compelling blog.
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I have to break my sons heart in the morning and tell him his grandpa (wife's father) passed away tonight. Not sure what the plan is but they have been best friends since my son was born.
 
Wow SKC. If I read that right, you have a similar situation to mine.

My wife and have two children from her previous marriage. Soon after we started dating, like 5 months into the relationship, their dad died in a motorcycle accident. On top of that, both of their grandfathers (not my dad, their moms dad and their bio dads dad) passed away within a year of one another about a year or so before that. So...I ended up being the only real male figure in this immediate family damn quickly, and I had to make the jump from single guy to parent with a lot of responsibility in a few ways. That being said, I was fairly unprepared for any counseling. I just had to go with honesty and facts. It's all I knew to do. They were 11 and 13 when this all happened, so it wasn't as if they were really young, but it was still quite jarring....and we still deal with certain issues to this day.

I don't have any advice really....just wanted to relate my situation. If I can say anything at all, my inexperience at the beginning may have been helpful in that I didn't have any preconceived notions on how to respond. I just had to react to what was there and be honest...and try and relate some of my own experiences with them. Shortly after their dad died, my own father had a heart attack that, coupled with his anesthesia from the ensuing heart cath, advanced his dementia basically overnight so much so that he was a shell of the man that was there prior. So...there went any advice I could get from him...It was a helluva time to start a relationship lol. But, we all got through it and continue on now. I have had to change a lot in that short time span....went from single son with a girlfriend and few responsibilities (other than my job) to father and caretaker, then husband in less than a year lol. I figure it was where I am aupposed to be....yeesh...I was a single physician living with my parents...Was still getting back on my feet after all my health issues the last 4-5 years prior to that...

So when I read threads like this, it helps me to gain insight on what everyone else does in parenting, since I had to jump into it in a fairly non-traditional way.
 
My son was not an athlete until about 5th grade. About halfway through flag football season, he and I both discovered he could play. Up until that point, he had always been the daisy picker in right field in t-ball/baseball and the kid you cheered wildly for when he made a basket in hoops because he never made a basket. I had seen flashes of athleticism in soccer but nothing sustained more than a few minutes(and then only when he was mad). He started playing tackle football the following season and was successful thru 11th grade. Gave up the game as a senior when he realized he wasn't going to start(he regretted that later when Union won its 3rd state champ in a row. Tried to tell him then but he wouldn't listen.) My point on this is he was similar to your son until the light came on in 5th grade. Football became his passion at that point.

As far as the sex talk goes, it's not a one time deal. It's an ongoing dialogue at our house. It has been since he was about 11. Even up to this day(he's 21 and in a relationship). Same deal with my girls(17 and 16). Recently, a teammate of my girls became pregnant. Makes it really easy to talk about sex in general, the risks associated with unprotected sex and the changes in their lives that would occur if that were to happen to them. While it's unfortunate their teammate became pregnant(she's a pretty good kid), it has allowed for many teaching moments that hit very close to home.

The last bit I have for you is this: keep them so busy they don't have time to screw up. That piece of advice came from my father in law. I didn't listen to much he said because most of what he said was critical of someone or something. But he was a really intelligent guy nonetheless. It has worked well for us.
 
Originally posted by Rulz:
Wow SKC. If I read that right, you have a similar situation to mine.

My wife and have two children from her previous marriage. Soon after we started dating, like 5 months into the relationship, their dad died in a motorcycle accident.

So when I read threads like this, it helps me to gain insight on what everyone else does in parenting, since I had to jump into it in a fairly non-traditional way.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I had been married for 11 years when my wife lost her battle to cancer, and my wife's first husband died from cancer as well. That's how we met. I didn't have any kids going into our relationship, she obviously had the two. Like you, I had to learn on the fly how to be a parent, plus help them deal with the loss of a parent. We've done well over the years, but there was a definite learning curve.

Our youngest wasn't planned, but has been a big blessing for our family.
 
Originally posted by HighStickHarry:
I have to break my sons heart in the morning and tell him his grandpa (wife's father) passed away tonight. Not sure what the plan is but they have been best friends since my son was born.
Click to expand...

sorry for your loss. that sucks. my kids lost both of their grandfather's in the span if 10 months. it was rough.

This post was edited on 3/20 8:21 AM by gipraw
 
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